SSJ3 - An incomplete form?

[Kaboom]

Gotenks has the same problem with Super Saiyan 3 as Goku. It just seems to manifest a little differently for him, probably by virtue of him being a Fusion. Rather than draining away his active Ki, it drains away his Fusion itself.

[Son_Gohan]

No, we're not. We understand that they're still just regular SS. What would make you think that?

It was in response to the thread starter, I haven't read the other posts.

He does, although not to the extent of Goku. He reverts to normal before he ran out of fusion time. His stamina issues are probably on par with dead SS3 Goku (at least, on his day in the living world)'s, as both are on borrowed time.

It doesn't really appear that way to me. Gotenks wasn't out of breath, or even sweating that profusely after using it.

[Piccolo Daimao]

No, we're not. We understand that they're still just regular SS. What would make you think that?

It was in response to the thread starter, I haven't read the other posts.

Oh, OK, then. My mistake.

He does, although not to the extent of Goku. He reverts to normal before he ran out of fusion time. His stamina issues are probably on par with dead SS3 Goku (at least, on his day in the living world)'s, as both are on borrowed time.

It doesn't really appear that way to me. Gotenks wasn't out of breath, or even sweating that profusely after using it.

I suppose you could count the stamina issues I'm talking about as being counted in his Fusion time. Like, how his ki correlated to his allocated time. Also, Fusion is magic.

I know that Gotenks didn't seem out of breath, but he still reverted back to normal against his will. And the Super Saiyan stages are related to ki and stamina. It's somewhat hard to explain, but I hope you know what I mean.

[Bussani]

There's this quote from after the kids first went Super Saiyan 3 as Gotenks:

Chapter: 489 (DBZ 295), P2.6-9, P3.1-3
Context: after they reach Super Saiyan 3 as Gotenks for the first time
Trunks: “Haah…haah…Hey…! We did it!”
Goten: “Y-yeah! Haah, haah…Amazing! To think that there’s something above Super Saiyan…!”
Trunks: “We can definitely win like this…! Hihihi…Everyone will flip their lids…!”
Goten: “…But that tires you out…I feel like we used aa~~aall our power up at once…”
Trunks: “…But its weak point is time…See…We’re only able to become it for about 5 minutes…Then even our Fusion comes undone and we turn back into two people…”
Goten: “That’s no problem. We’ll become the way we were right off the bat! Even with just 5 minutes, we’ll definitely be able to take care of him!”

Seems to me they suffer from exactly the same problem as Goku, with the reduced fusion time even mirroring the reduction of his time on Earth.

[Son_Gohan]

I suppose you could count the stamina issues I'm talking about as being counted in his Fusion time. Like, how his ki correlated to his allocated time. Also, Fusion is magic.

I know that Gotenks didn't seem out of breath, but he still reverted back to normal against his will. And the Super Saiyan stages are related to ki and stamina. It's somewhat hard to explain, but I hope you know what I mean.

I understand what you mean. Toriyama wasn't very clear with the whole concept and probably didn't give it enough forethought. This linkage of time with energy seemed to work with Goku's situation when he was dead, but becomes more perplexing to make sense of later on. I just don't see the purpose of viewing it as something jointly interchangeable when there's a significant difference present. With Ki, they actually have voluntary control over; time, they do not. And this contrast is apparent to me with SSJ3 Goku & Gotenks' instances.

In Goku's SSJ3 appearance he reverts on his own accord, and is left visibly fatigued. Against Kid Buu however, he notices his Ki start to plummet and he is unable to sustain the form. You could definitely see the effect on energy with him, but with Gotenks, it exemplifies more of an effect on time. Because none of what factored to Goku reverting showed in Gotenks' case. Goku stated how he could actually feel the energy leaving him and was confused with what was happening, while Gotenks was getting ready to fire a Kamehameha to finish off Super Buu, when he spontaneously reverted, catching him and everyone watching by surprise.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Chapter: 489 (DBZ 295), P2.6-9, P3.1-3
Context: after they reach Super Saiyan 3 as Gotenks for the first time
Trunks: “Haah…haah…Hey…! We did it!”
Goten: “Y-yeah! Haah, haah…Amazing! To think that there’s something above Super Saiyan…!”
Trunks: “We can definitely win like this…! Hihihi…Everyone will flip their lids…!”
Goten: “…But that tires you out…I feel like we used aa~~aall our power up at once…”
Trunks: “…But its weak point is time…See…We’re only able to become it for about 5 minutes…Then even our Fusion comes undone and we turn back into two people…”
Goten: “That’s no problem. We’ll become the way we were right off the bat! Even with just 5 minutes, we’ll definitely be able to take care of him!”

Seems to me they suffer from exactly the same problem as Goku, with the reduced fusion time even mirroring the reduction of his time on Earth.

Yeah, that too. I forgot about that.

[Son_Gohan]

There's this quote from after the kids first went Super Saiyan 3 as Gotenks:

Chapter: 489 (DBZ 295), P2.6-9, P3.1-3
Context: after they reach Super Saiyan 3 as Gotenks for the first time
Trunks: “Haah…haah…Hey…! We did it!”
Goten: “Y-yeah! Haah, haah…Amazing! To think that there’s something above Super Saiyan…!”
Trunks: “We can definitely win like this…! Hihihi…Everyone will flip their lids…!”
Goten: “…But that tires you out…I feel like we used aa~~aall our power up at once…”
Trunks: “…But its weak point is time…See…We’re only able to become it for about 5 minutes…Then even our Fusion comes undone and we turn back into two people…”
Goten: “That’s no problem. We’ll become the way we were right off the bat! Even with just 5 minutes, we’ll definitely be able to take care of him!”

Seems to me they suffer from exactly the same problem as Goku, with the reduced fusion time even mirroring the reduction of his time on Earth.

It looks like he's referring to after the fusion is undone.

Trunks only notes time as being the form's weakness in the next line after all.

[Monkey D Goku]

There's this quote from after the kids first went Super Saiyan 3 as Gotenks:

Chapter: 489 (DBZ 295), P2.6-9, P3.1-3
Context: after they reach Super Saiyan 3 as Gotenks for the first time
Trunks: “Haah…haah…Hey…! We did it!”
Goten: “Y-yeah! Haah, haah…Amazing! To think that there’s something above Super Saiyan…!”
Trunks: “We can definitely win like this…! Hihihi…Everyone will flip their lids…!”
Goten: “…But that tires you out…I feel like we used aa~~aall our power up at once…”
Trunks: “…But its weak point is time…See…We’re only able to become it for about 5 minutes…Then even our Fusion comes undone and we turn back into two people…”
Goten: “That’s no problem. We’ll become the way we were right off the bat! Even with just 5 minutes, we’ll definitely be able to take care of him!”

Seems to me they suffer from exactly the same problem as Goku, with the reduced fusion time even mirroring the reduction of his time on Earth.

It looks like he's referring to after the fusion is undone.

Trunks only notes time as being the form's weakness in the next line after all.

I agree Gotenks didn't seem at all tired or fatigued after his sj3 goes undone.

[hleV]

I was wondering, maybe the "around 5 minutes" rule applies to both Gotenks and Goku (as long as he's in a living body)?

[Dabooyaka]

It's not like Goku had a choice in the matter. Super Saiyan 2 just isn't enough to fight Boo. He needed to use it.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

The big difference between SSJG3 & SSJ3, in terms of disadvantages, is that in SSJ3 you can fight, while in Grade 3 you CAN'T fight. Even though SSJ3 is draining your stamina, you can still fight in this limited time and do many things, while in Grade 3 you can't do anything because, not only it drains your stamina, but you can't land or dodge a hit.

[Relight]

SSJ=50x
SSJ2=200x
SSJ3=400x


Those are the multipliers.

[Kaboom]

SSJ=50x
SSJ2=200x
SSJ3=400x
Those are the multipliers.

Bit of a typo there? Super Saiyan 2 is twice as powerful as Super Saiyan 1, so it'd be 100x the normal state's power.

Furthermore, not really what the topic is/was about...

[Saiga]

SSJ=50x
SSJ2=200x
SSJ3=400x


Those are the multipliers.

What?

[Fox666]

The big difference between SSJG3 & SSJ3, in terms of disadvantages, is that in SSJ3 you can fight, while in Grade 3 you CAN'T fight. Even though SSJ3 is draining your stamina, you can still fight in this limited time and do many things, while in Grade 3 you can't do anything because, not only it drains your stamina, but you can't land or dodge a hit.

Not sure about how disadvantageous Grade III is, while we know it is slower than Grade II that doesn't necessarily means it is not faster than regular Super Saiyan.

[rereboy]

The big difference between SSJG3 & SSJ3, in terms of disadvantages, is that in SSJ3 you can fight, while in Grade 3 you CAN'T fight. Even though SSJ3 is draining your stamina, you can still fight in this limited time and do many things, while in Grade 3 you can't do anything because, not only it drains your stamina, but you can't land or dodge a hit.

Not sure about how disadvantageous Grade III is, while we know it is slower than Grade II that doesn't necessarily means it is not faster than regular Super Saiyan.

Its not faster because Goku decided to use the regular SSJ as his best form. If grade III was faster than regular saiyan, besides being stronger, Goku would use it agaisnt Cell before giving up, since it would essencially be exactly like SSJ3 is (better in every way compared to his previous form, but it wouldn't last long).

Even Grade II probably isn't faster than regular SSJ. Just stronger. Or if it is faster, its just slightly. Meaning that Vegeta, for example, would be as fast using Grade II as he was using his regular SSJ (or slightly faster), but he would be stronger with his Grade II.

However, Goku decided to not even use Grade II because his regular SSJ allowed him to use his power much more efficiently without waste, making it more advantageous.

SSJ3 on the other hand, even with its stamina problem, works as a temporary super power up to the fighter's abilities. Its very useful actually. Its like a prolonged Kaioken that doesn't put the fighter's body at risk and lasts longer than a normal Kaioken burst, but it still doesn't last very long. It only requires that the fighter defeats his enemy before running out of time. Besides that, it has no other problems and it gives the fighter an enormous amount of power.

In short, if Kaioken was useful, SSJ3 is even more useful.

[Fox666]

The Daizenshuu is clear in saying that Grade II increase both strength and speed. Besides Trunks transformed just to catch Cell before he reached No.18...

[DBZGTKOSDH]

The Daizenshuu is clear in saying that Grade II increase both strength and speed. Besides Trunks transformed just to catch Cell before he reached No.18...

But Grade 2 didn't balance strength and speed. The strenght boost was bigger, unlike SSJ, SSJ2 & SSJ3, which balanced both strenght and speed.

[Piccolo Daimao]

The Daizenshuu is clear in saying that Grade II increase both strength and speed. Besides Trunks transformed just to catch Cell before he reached No.18...

But Grade 2 didn't balance strength and speed. The strenght boost was bigger, unlike SSJ, SSJ2 & SSJ3, which balanced both strenght and speed.

Yeah, what's your point? It still increases strength and speed, just that it's imbalanced because strength increases more than speed. Plus energy consumption. That's why Gokuu regarded SSG2, along with SSG3, as inefficient ways of powering up SS.

[Goten Forever]

Trunks: “…But its weak point is time…See…We’re only able to become it for about 5 minutes…Then even our Fusion comes undone and we turn back into two people…”
Goten: “That’s no problem. We’ll become the way we were right off the bat! Even with just 5 minutes, we’ll definitely be able to take care of him!”

Hmm. Trunks seems disappointed he has no time. Linked with Gotenks making the most of his time, probably?