SSJ3 - An incomplete form?

[rereboy]

The Daizenshuu is clear in saying that Grade II increase both strength and speed. Besides Trunks transformed just to catch Cell before he reached No.18...

And I said that if it does increase speed, it only increases it slightly (perhaps as an indirect effect of improving the fighter's strength).

[Maphisto86]

SSj3 is something of a mystery in that it was not the main method of defeating the big bad for the Buu saga (which was a relief actually). In a way it was a way for Akira Toriyama to continue the trend of a new Super Saiyan transformation but also to show that great strength and power from a transformation was not going to defeat Majin Buu. I think the in-universe explanation is that Son Goku was not used to being in the physical realm after years of training in the afterlife and so could not get used to the form's massive physical cost like he did for the first Super Saiyan form back before the Cell Games. Gotenks probably didn't bother to train the same way either due to the lack of time he had to train before facing Buu again. So ultimately in the canon story, SSj 3's true potential is never revealed.

[dbgtFO]

The Daizenshuu is clear in saying that Grade II increase both strength and speed. Besides Trunks transformed just to catch Cell before he reached No.18...

And I said that if it does increase speed, it only increases it slightly (perhaps as an indirect effect of improving the fighter's strength).

Nope:

This is capable of raising both power and speed much higher than a Super Saiyan.

[Rocketman]

Am I the only one who likes the idea that Super Saiyan 3 is such a massive distortion of the Saiyan's body that no amount of training will ever control it?

[Bussani]

Am I the only one who likes the idea that Super Saiyan 3 is such a massive distortion of the Saiyan's body that no amount of training will ever control it?

You are not. I like it the way it is; it isn't perfect, but that's what makes it interesting. It's a trump card that has heavy drawbacks, but unlike Grade III, is actually usable. Kind of like Kaio-ken, I guess...?

[Piccolo Daimao]

Am I the only one who likes the idea that Super Saiyan 3 is such a massive distortion of the Saiyan's body that no amount of training will ever control it?

Nope, I agree with you too.

[Fox666]

I think you guys are over-looking it... the simpliest explanation is that Super Saiyan 3 uses so much power it drain your energy very quickly.

[ItsAllGood]

Ladies and Gents,

Firstly, thank you all for your excellent replies - it certainly makes for some interesting reading!

From reading your posts, I agree that SSJ3 as a massive distortion of power - but only as it branches off heavily from the base SSJ form. Therein lies the problem - distortion of the SSJ3 form, as the previous forms were not fundamentally sound.

As I understand it, Goku's rage, emotions and physical structure underwent profound changes whilst in his SSJ form (Freeza Arc). After discovering the additional USSJ forms and their drawbacks, these were discarded in order to perfect the original SSJ form - the form we know as FPSSJ. This reduced the rage and emotional elements, whilst increasing attributes across the board.

At this point, I would like to believe that the FPSSJ form was a good building block for the other forms to be accessed. Goku's apparent failing is that these forms were never mastered akin to the FPSSJ form. We never once see Goku attempt or even mention any further mastery of these additional SSJ2 and 3 forms to the level seen previously. The benefits of doing so were apparent to all involved in the Cell games. If it was good enough then, why was it disregarded later?

What baffles me is that Goku would spend such a long period of time fine-tuning and perfecting their SSJ form, only to totally discard this training methodology once the higher SSJ forms were accessed. Why wouldn't Goku attempt to master the SSJ2 form instead of simply probing the depths of his power, and ultimately drawing out a erratic and unreliable SSJ3 form?

I'd like to use the example of a building here. Imagine Goku's SSJ form as a foundation. Strong, but flawed in places that could affect the final construction. Noting this, Goku goes through additional training, and these flaws are fine-tuned to build a nigh-indestructible foundation, ready to support any additional significant loads (such as other SSJ forms).

Now imagine SSJ2 as the next level of this building. Stronger again, but could have other potential flaws. Goku chooses to disregard fine tuning this form, and thus, SSJ2 retains its flaws. However, due to the mastery of his original SSJ form, SSJ2's flaws go unnoticed, as the foundation that it rests upon is solid.

Now, here's the clincher - Place SSJ3 on top of a flawed SSJ2 form.

At this point, the flaws become more pronounced between SSJ2 and 3. The flaws in SSJ2 can seriously undermine the benefits of SSJ3. Due to the extra strain on Goku while in his SSJ3 form, flaws in his SSJ2 forms become overtly apparent, and are compounded once again as SSJ3 is placed on top of it.

Now, we know that SSJ3 is quite a leap from Goku's SSJ form, and the massive power drain and short time span reserves this form for high-level villains like Buu. However, if Goku had perfected the SSJ2 form, perhaps SSJ3 would not have had such a detrimental effect on him, and would lead him to consider mastery of that form too. Perhaps the SSJ3 form we know could have had an altogether different aura or other attribute, similar to the SSJ and FPSSJ differences noticed.

I would like to think that by mastering the SSJ2 form - a 'FPSSJ2' if you will - this would negate the strain on his body that SSJ3 had, allowing the achievement of a more efficient version of SSJ3. This in turn could allow the perfection of the SSJ3 form (FPSSJ3), unlocking even more power, longer usage times or speed whilst in this form.

I hope I've been clear enough with my examples, as I just feel that there was so much more potential to be shown in the SSJ3 form.

[NANLIT]

Do we really know if he ever did that or not? There was a 7 years gap after between Cell and Boo. Goku could've stayed in SSJ2 awhile to get used to that form during that timeskip once he reached the form. And as for SSJ3, he could have done that in the 10 years between Boo and the 28th TB, especially since the drawbacks are greater when he's alive and he wanted to be able to defeat Boo in case the evil Boo came about again due to Mr. Boo becoming angry again.

And if he hadn't done so by the Boo arc (mastering SSJ2 fully), then that definitely would be good for him to do in the 10 years afterwards along with SSJ3.

[Piccolo Daimao]

When was it ever stated that Gokuu didn't train in an attempt to master SS2 (which we don't know when he achieved it) or, further more, SS3 (which he apparently wasn't even used to yet)? Furthermore, when was it ever stated that SS2 and/or SS3 can be mastered?

Perhaps, many years down the line (maybe during training in the afterlife, after he and Vegeta had died in their final battle from DBO), Gokuu did master SS2 and SS3, as (IMO) there are no limits in DB, but who knows?

Heck, maybe it wouldn't be a stretch to assume that he had mastered SS2, but we just didn't know about it because it wasn't important enough to be highlighted (it was still useless against Boo and pretty much faded into obscurity after SS3 was introduced). In the Boo arc, Gokuu, Gohan and (probably) Vegeta had all mastered SS, yet didn't remain in the form permanently like at the Cell Games (presumably because that was probably still part of their training before the fight with Cell, and there was no real set-in-stone fight to prepare for before Boo had been introduced).

Final note: SS2 wasn't really highlighted to have any disadvantages, other than possible energy consumption like pre-mastered SS. In the first place, Gokuu only decided on mastering SS when attempting to further power it up with bulky forms such as SSG2 and SS3 proved inefficient (mainly imbalance in strength and speed increase).

[Fox666]

SS2 wasn't really highlighted to have any disadvantages, other than possible energy consumption like pre-mastered SS.

It also freaks out who else uses it... I guess there is some reasonable disadvantages, considering how many times we have seen characters choosing to fight as regular Super Saiyans instead.

[Piccolo Daimao]

SS2 wasn't really highlighted to have any disadvantages, other than possible energy consumption like pre-mastered SS.

It also freaks out who else uses it... I guess there is some reasonable disadvantages, considering how many times we have seen characters choosing to fight as regular Super Saiyans instead.

In the manga, post-SS2, we don't really see characters choosing to fight as regular Super Saiyans instead, unless you're talking about when Gokuu and Vegeta transformed to fight Super Boo inside his body. Perhaps it was just Boo arc characters' stupidity yet again, since in the same scene, Gokuu thought that he could kill Boo merely by blowing a hole in his body. But whether or not Gokuu and Vegeta transformed to SS3 and SS2 respectively, they still would've been defeated by Boo.

Alternatively, perhaps Gokuu and Vegeta's energy had been used up by the Potara fusion and they couldn't transform any further than SS. Maybe it's similar to how, in the RoSaT, Goten and Trunks are clearly exhausted after using Metamoran fusion and mention that it tired them out, feeling like they'd used up all their power at once. Of course, Potara fusion is different from Metamoran fusion, but it still uses the same basic concept and it being different (perhaps using more power, particularly if you consider it being magical and permanent) could cause the same side-effects, even without SS3, as they were unnaturally unfused inside another magical being (even more magical), Boo's body, presumably due to "bad air".

Chapter: 489 (DBZ 295), P2.6-9, P3.1-3
Context: after they reach Super Saiyan 3 as Gotenks for the first time
Trunks: “Haah…haah…Hey…! We did it!”
Goten: “Y-yeah! Haah, haah…Amazing! To think that there’s something above Super Saiyan…!”
Trunks: “We can definitely win like this…! Hihihi…Everyone will flip their lids…!”
Goten: “…But that tires you out…I feel like we used aa~~aall our power up at once…”
Trunks: “…But its weak point is time…See…We’re only able to become it for about 5 minutes…Then even our Fusion comes undone and we turn back into two people…”
Goten: “That’s no problem. We’ll become the way we were right off the bat! Even with just 5 minutes, we’ll definitely be able to take care of him!”

[Kaboom]

Here's the way I've taken to thinking of the forms lately.

Super Saiyan is the "main" part of the transformation. In a way it's the most special because it's the foundation upon which the others are built. In order to do so properly and effectively, though, you've got to make that foundation solid. Mastering the form and gaining "Full-Power Super Saiyan" is doing so, which allows you to reach Super Saiyan 2. Trying to stack up more power before mastering it gets you the flawed "grades" forms instead.

Super Saiyan 2 is just a super-charged version of the first form. It's adding power done right. Personally, I think it probably re-introduces the restlessness that comes with an un-mastered Super Saiyan, but it might be too high-powered to train in order to make that similarly go away. SSj2 represents the peak of a "normal" Saiyan's power.

Super Saiyan 3 is an unnatural power that a regular Saiyan shouldn't even be capable of. That's why you can only use it effectively when you're already dead or are some sort of other magically-created being like a Fusion. It's also why a regular living and non-magic guy like Vegeta, despite training his ass off and being only a step behind Goku power-wise, didn't even seem to be aware of its existence, unlike with how he could already "see beyond Super Saiyan" back when he was first striving towards the Grades. On top of all this, I still also like the theory I talked about where Super Saiyan 3 is an incomplete and "haxed" method of trying for Super Saiyan 4's power.

[dbgtFO]

^ Apart from the final line in your Super Saiyan 2 entry and your entire Super Saiyan 3 entry, I pretty much see it that way as well. For me Super Saiyan 3 is not an unnatural power-up, but simply has those adverse effects because your body is operating at max output like what Son_Gohan mentioned on the first page of this thread.

For that reason I don't think of Super Saiyan 3 as an incomplete form and I don't think Super Saiyan 2 could be "mastered" to the same extent that Super Saiyan 1 was, nor do I think it would've negated the drawbacks anyway.

[rereboy]

The Daizenshuu is clear in saying that Grade II increase both strength and speed. Besides Trunks transformed just to catch Cell before he reached No.18...

And I said that if it does increase speed, it only increases it slightly (perhaps as an indirect effect of improving the fighter's strength).

Nope:

This is capable of raising both power and speed much higher than a Super Saiyan.

Then I don't agree with that logic. If it works that way, then there is no reason for Goku to not use it at least as a temporary boost of power and speed against Cell. Regular SSJ would still be better for training, but in an actual fight, if Goku is losing ground and there is no other way of winning (like he was against Cell), using grade 2 would perhaps give him the boost necessary to turn things around.

On the other hand, if it doesn't increase speed or if it just increases it slightly, then things make sense.

So, I'm not gonna agree with the Daizenshuu on that point.

[Kaboom]

Could it be that once Super Saiyan is mastered, the Grades forms simply disappear and are replaced by the capacity for Super Saiyan 2 instead? That's the idea I usually go by. Both are, after all, described as "beyond Super Saiyan."

[rereboy]

Goku clearly says that they ought to focus on regular SSJ instead of the grades right after he discovers the grades. I doubt he would know right away that regular SSJ would "absorb" any potential benefit from the grades once fully mastered, so to me that implies that he sees no use for grade 2 or grade 3 as early as that point in time, which seems very strange if grade 2 actually increases both power and speed by a large amount.

If grade 2 actually increases power and speed much higher than regular SSJ, it would be logical for Goku to say or at least think: "Well, grade 3 is not usable since it makes us very slow. Grade 2 has potential since it increases all of our abilities, including speed. Its much better than Grade 3. However, it seems to stress our bodies even more than regular SSJ. I think we ought to focus on regular SSJ as our best state and reserve grade 2 as a desperation move for when we are losing, since at that point we no longer should be worrying about stress to the body or energy management".

Grade 2 would essentially be very similar to SSJ3 if that is true.

[Kaboom]

Well, it's not like anyone expected Super Saiyan 2 to happen. Goku was just as surprised as anyone else. I imagine he probably was thinking, "going above Super Saiyan actually works now? Holy crap!"

[rereboy]

I don't know what that has to do with anything. If Goku had witnessed or achieved SSJ2 he would know it was useful and even better than regular SSJ and he would use it. But he achieved SSJ grade 2 and felt he had no use for it, which seems very weird if it truly does what the Daizenshuu says it does.

[Bussani]

Maybe he would have used Grade 2 in a pinch if his plan hadn't been to throw Gohan up against Cell and wait for him to get angry.