Warriors with no ki control

[FindKenshi]

Didn't Vegeta elaborate a bit on how he learned it? "The guys on Earth did this, one of them was a Saiyan--so I thought to myself, I'm a Saiyan, too!"

I think being narrow-minded about ki is only a partial contributor to the lack of the ability to sense and control it, however. Gohan had to basically "show" Videl her own ki, I feel like he entered into her mind and guided her, through "image training."

[Perfect]

Didn't Vegeta elaborate a bit on how he learned it? "The guys on Earth did this, one of them was a Saiyan--so I thought to myself, I'm a Saiyan, too!"

I think being narrow-minded about ki is only a partial contributor to the lack of the ability to sense and control it, however. Gohan had to basically "show" Videl her own ki, I feel like he entered into her mind and guided her, through "image training."

Nothing implies Gohan did anything of the sort.

[FindKenshi]

Sure it does, as she's sitting there, her eyes closed, deep in concentration, he's sitting there with her, isn't he? Look familiar? It's just like Gohan and Krillin on the way to Namek!

[bizness86]

Early-Z ki sensing isn't nearly as good as late-, or even mid-Z ki sensing. Piccolo though Raditz may have been Goku. Kuririn didn't know how strong Raditz was, etc.

I believe that powering up does a few things; I probably wouldn't like to go too into detail, but I believe that powering up fills the ki container, like how it is in the Budokai games; you power-up, then you can use the ki that is stored.

Of course, that's just imo.

[Perfect]

Sure it does, as she's sitting there, her eyes closed, deep in concentration, he's sitting there with her, isn't he? Look familiar? It's just like Gohan and Krillin on the way to Namek!

His eyes are open and he's guiding her vocally half the time, there's no indication of anything you're saying.

[FindKenshi]

Well I don't mean that he's projecting himself completly into her mind the way him and Krillin used to do. But I mean to say that he's probably probing her ki with his own, and spirtually guiding her in subtle ways. He's pretty talented by this point in the story, it's not impossible. I really feel like that's how he managed to pull it off in a single day.

[Perfect]

Well I don't mean that he's projecting himself completly into her mind the way him and Krillin used to do. But I mean to say that he's probably probing her ki with his own, and spirtually guiding her in subtle ways. He's pretty talented by this point in the story, it's not impossible. I really feel like that's how he managed to pull it off in a single day.

Aside from again, nothing implies anything you're saying. He just guided her by telling her what to do, crediting her as being a fast learner due to her indulgence in martial arts.

[FindKenshi]

I will concede, Perfect, that is indeed one possible interpretation of the scene. All I'm trying to say, however, is that when I first turned the page and saw the scene with Videl and Gohan sitting close to eachother, with their legs crossed, it reminded me very much of the scene with Gohan and Krillin on the space ship. It's a pretty big coincidence, if there's nothing going on there other than Gohan just talking her through it.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Vegeta definitely had the ability to manipulate his resting ki output when he came to Earth. He powered up against Goku near the start of their fight. But it's obvious that he didn't seem to have the same level of control that Goku and the rest of the Z senshi did.

Which would also suggest that he could concentrate his ki attacks considering his Galick Gun matched Goku 3x Kaioken Kamehameha.

No, he didn't, because it was outright stated that he only learned how to control his battle power after the battle on Earth. Did you miss my entire post?

What looked like "powering up" (probably more for dramatic effect than anything) was him just releasing more of his power on the surface and/or preparing for battle. Gokuu had hurt himself from using the Kaiouken x3, so he was probably weaker than before. Using the Kaiouken x3 again in conjunction with his Kamehameha ended up matching Vegeta's Galick Gun, which would've still been consistently read at 18,000.

That's due to the scouters' black-and-white, restricted method of measuring a person's current power, as opposed to the Earthlings' natural method of ki-sensing, feeling or the subtleties in someone's ki increasing, suppressing, etc. Like how Gohan had to wait to feel for Videl's ki, but when she began fighting, he immediately sensed it, even though Videl couldn't control her ki.

I admit that Toriyama didn't explain it particularly well, but that's what the story gives us. I don't know whether or not I should compare this to the "Gohan SS/SS2" thing. I don't want to open a whole 'nother can of worms, but it's like how some people believe that he was SS because there were no lightning sparks, while others believe that he was SS2 because that's what the story tells us. So I suppose it's a matter of visual evidence vs. story perspective.

In that case, I guess that's no-one's right nor wrong.

[FindKenshi]

No, he didn't, because it was outright stated that he only learned how to control his battle power after the battle on Earth. Did you miss my entire post?

We didn't miss your post, we just don't agree with it!

What looked like "powering up" (probably more for dramatic effect than anything)

dramatic effect? Please elaborate.

was him just releasing more of his power on the surface and/or preparing for battle.

Even that, would be "controlling his ki." And, it changes nothing, as when that power is "not on the surface" per your wording, Piccolo can't detect it. Thus, it's hidden.

[Bussani]

Even that, would be "controlling his ki." And, it changes nothing, as when that power is "not on the surface" per your wording, Piccolo can't detect it. Thus, it's hidden.

Maybe from Piccolo, but apparently not from a scouter. Every line out of Vegeta's mouth on the subject seems to imply that battle powers changing at all is unusual, from Gohan's raising when he's about to fire a ki attack, to Goku's 5,000 reading just being his minimum. I suppose we need to define exactly what we mean by "controlling ki" in the context of this thread.

[Perfect]

Logically, Vegeta's hand would be read at a constant figure. Vegeta's hand with a generated blast would be read at a higher figure. I think control is just a matter of changing it based on the whim of a person, when it comes to things going up or down, as opposed to one singular direction automatically.

[FindKenshi]

I think first, before going any further, we have to first define this concept about Piccolo not being able to sense a level of ki and a scouter being able to.

So by the logic being presented here, at the time Piccolo couldn't even tell if Vegeta was stronger than Nappa or not (Context: Vegeta tells Nappa to stop his attack for the second time, Nappa looks taken aback, and apologizes, and Piccolo marvels over if this means Vegeta is even stronger than him), that a scouter pointed at Vegeta then would still show the 18,000 value.

I just think this idea sounds really far fetched. I'm not trying to at all be offensive, but I refer to this as "fanboy logic." The reason I call it such, it is seems like it's trying to twist an aspect of the story away from the original author's intent in order to make sense of, or excuse, a plot hole.

Every instance where the scouter's ability to detect ki is compared to the Earthlings' ability to do so, seems to point at the Earthling's "senses" being more keen.

Do we have an official on-paper example of a scouter showing a higher value than Goku or Piccolo can detect with their mind? And if we argue that Piccolo and the other minor characters are simply not that great at sensing ki, do we really want to argue this for Post-Kaio Goku as well? Even he didn't realize how powerful Vegeta was, until he "powered up" to destroy Nappa.

Furthermore, throughout the Z portion of the story, whenever we see a character do this "power up" thing, where they flex and scream and ignite in an aura of power, the characters are always commenting about how their battle power is raising.

Nappa "powers up"
Piccolo "Never knew it'd be this much!"

Vegeta "powers up"
Goku "you guys better leave, he's stronger than I thought he'd be."

Freeza "powers up"
Krillin "I never... even... imagined"

Cell "powers up"
Piccolo "Didn't think you'd come this far... how many died to make you this strong?"

Cell "powers up"
Vegeta "quite an improvement, but is that all?"
Trunks "Father has won."

etc. etc.

So many examples, and it's the exact same thing. This flexing up and igniting in a visible aura around their body, with the inclusion of observing characters remarking about an increase in battle presence. This is what I define as "powering up". The examples are identical to what Vegeta and Nappa did on Earth, so what is the difference?

I think we really need examples from the story, or references from the supplemental material, to claim that what Nappa and Vegeta are doing on Earth isn't the same as what the other characters are doing later in the story. It looks and "acts" the exact same...

[Piccolo Daimao]

No, he didn't, because it was outright stated that he only learned how to control his battle power after the battle on Earth. Did you miss my entire post?

We didn't miss your post, we just don't agree with it!

OK then, fair enough.

What looked like "powering up" (probably more for dramatic effect than anything)

dramatic effect? Please elaborate.

Does it really need explanation? The trend for most villains since the Piccolo Daimaou arc has been:

*villains generates aura around him, shit starts rumbling*
*hero awes over his power*

was him just releasing more of his power on the surface and/or preparing for battle.

Even that, would be "controlling his ki." And, it changes nothing, as when that power is "not on the surface" per your wording, Piccolo can't detect it. Thus, it's hidden.

Not necessarily. Again, Toriyama didn't explain this clearly, but Earthlings can sense the subtleties in ki that scouters cannot pick up (like when Gohan and Kuririn could sense that the Namekians were suppressing their ki), whereas the scouter can just tell a person's current level. Vegeta and Nappa were just releasing more of their ki on surface, and the story and statements tell us that the Saiyans treat ki manipulation as a foreign concept and are surprised when the Earthlings do it.

Read this quotes I posted from the Strength Checker again.

I think we really need examples from the story, or references from the supplemental material, to claim that what Nappa and Vegeta are doing on Earth isn't the same as what the other characters are doing later in the story. It looks and "acts" the exact same...

And yet, it's established that they can't control their battle power at all, with Vegeta only learning to do it after the battle on Earth.

To me, it seems as if it might be less of a plothole, and more of Toriyama's poor writing.

[FindKenshi]

Piccolo Daimao, your response seems to be directed at my non-latest post. In the interest of making a cohesive debate, and not reverting to replying to individual sentences from each-others' posts, I'd ask you to read my latest reply and then make a response on it, and then we can continue from there. Your reply is to me before I have elaborated on the points I'm trying to get across. Now that I've explained myself, what, in turn, is your response to that?

[Bussani]

I just think this idea sounds really far fetched. I'm not trying to at all be offensive, but I refer to this as "fanboy logic." The reason I call it such, it is seems like it's trying to twist an aspect of the story away from the original author's intent in order to make sense of, or excuse, a plot hole.

Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. With the Saiyans going on and on about how "battle powers" changing is unusual and the Earthlings again and again being surprised when the Saiyan's "ki" changes all at the same time, I think it could well be that the author thought there was some sort of difference. If it's a plothole, then it's a weird one and I have no idea what the author's intent was.

Every instance where the scouter's ability to detect ki is compared to the Earthlings' ability to do so, seems to point at the Earthling's "senses" being more keen.

Not every instance. Raditz could find Goku and Piccolo from anywhere on the planet with his scouter, but they needed to follow the dragon ball on Gohan's hat to find him. Obviously their ki sensing got better after that, but only a year later? It could be that scouters still had some sort of advantage.

On the other hand, maybe their ki sensing really was more keen and that's exactly why they can sense a difference where a scouter cannot. Maybe when Vegeta and Nappa "power up" and prepare themselves for battle the Earthling's can feel the difference, but a scouter doesn't care whether the aura it's detecting is calm or ready to kill.

I think we really need examples from the story, or references from the supplemental material, to claim that what Nappa and Vegeta are doing on Earth isn't the same as what the other characters are doing later in the story. It looks and "acts" the exact same...

I think it is the same...except that they can't change their battle power. Maybe something like this:

>Nappa braces himself for combat; his ki "wakes up" and blazes, but doesn't change in "size".
>Goku braces himself for combat; his ki "wakes up" and blazes, and its "size" increases.

[dbgtFO]

I just think this idea sounds really far fetched. I'm not trying to at all be offensive, but I refer to this as "fanboy logic." The reason I call it such, it is seems like it's trying to twist an aspect of the story away from the original author's intent in order to make sense of, or excuse, a plot hole.

Vegeta's statement pretty much tells us that he learned to control his battle power or in other words the readings on the scouter from the earthlings, so what he did on Earth would not be classified as changing the readings on a scouter and that's all that really matters IMO.

I can't really consider it a plothole, when that claim's evidence is based on people, who were not scouters nor did they know much about them anyway, noting a change.
If it was the scouter itself that registred a change there'd be a case, but since it wasn't, I just don't see it.. at all.

I'm sure that AT could have explained the concept better, but it is what it is.

[Bussani]

Yeah, I mean, we go from Vegeta saying not to rely on their initial scouter readings because the Earthlings can change them, to Nappa "powering up" and everyone being surprised by his power, to Vegeta once again mentioning when the Earthling's readings change, to Goku mentioning that Vegeta was stronger than he thought when he "powered up" to kill Nappa. It goes back and forth over a bunch of chapters, so it doesn't feel like it's just a mistake Toriyama made and then contradicted later.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Piccolo Daimao, your response seems to be directed at my non-latest post. In the interest of making a cohesive debate, and not reverting to replying to individual sentences from each-others' posts, I'd ask you to read my latest reply and then make a response on it, and then we can continue from there. Your reply is to me before I have elaborated on the points I'm trying to get across. Now that I've explained myself, what, in turn, is your response to that?

I read your latest post, and my stance is still the same.

[FindKenshi]

That's all fine, guys, but no one has answered this part of my question yet. Or at least not answered it in a sufficent way that referces source material or supplemental material.

If what Nappa and Vegeta are doing on Earth is merly putting on a "light show" for dramatic effect, and Piccolo's comment about "never thought it'd be this much" is just in reference to the... er, quaking event caused by Nappa flaring his aura up to show what he can do--

Then why can't Piccolo tell that Vegeta is stronger than Nappa? The difference between Vegeta and Nappa, it's gigantic. The Z-Senshi can tell who's stronger than who, based on their senses, unless the opponent is hiding their chi.

Goku immediately knew Raditz was super-strong. But Goku didn't know Vegeta was super-strong, until Vegeta "powered up."

How do you explain this away?

Also, I'd like you to at least acknowledge my claim.. the way it's being treated here that this is "no plot hole at all, and I don't see why you'd think it would be one," seem pretentious to me. Clearly, there is some kind of discrepancy here, or we'd not be having this discussion.