End of Z Goku.

[Dabooyaka]

Haha. Catouttahell is just repeating the same stuff he hears from p123. I was curious as to what other people thought on the matter. It seems this issue can go either way.

[CatouttaHell]

Actually Cooler and I were the ones who figured this out originally and convinced p123 about it, so it's the other way around.

[FNF]

Actually Cooler and I were the ones who figured this out originally and convinced p123 about it, so it's the other way around.

In fact I first told Cooler about it .


Anyway...

Goku says when he is about to finish Boo;

“…You’re amazin’. You hung in there really well…All on your own…This time, be reborn as a good guy…I wanna fight you one-on-one…I’ll be waiting…And I’ll have gotten much, much better…See ya later!”

So Goku expects Boo reincarnation to be at least just as strong as Boo himself.
Link that with;

“Oh, I see. You still don’t even know how to fly, huh? …I guess there ain’t no helping it. You haven’t had no teacher, and you probably never even considered things like that. Sorry I bad-mouthed you before. Please forgive me. I just wanted to know your true ability. You’re exactly the person I thought you were. As amazin’ as I expected. But you don’t know how to use your power. This is the first time you’ve fought like this, right? How about we live together at my house and I’ll teach you!”

...and there you have it. AT blatantly sets up the base Goku (eoZ) vs Oob fight as a rematch of SSjin3 Goku vs Pure Boo but just with Goku having no set backs.. It is quite frankly bullshit to claim that the base Goku(eoZ)~SSjin3 Goku(Boo) argument is flawed. There are no flaws with it at all.

[NANLIT]

On p.62-63, it says that Super Saiyan 2 is twice as strong as regular Super Saiyan, and that Super Saiyan 3 is four times as strong as Super Saiyan 2. It also repeats Daizenshuu 7's statement about regular Super Saiyan increasing the battle power by a factor of 50. Somewhat interestingly, the comment on regular Super Saiyan is the only one that uses the term "battle power", while for 2 and 3 it simply says "strength". This may be to go along with Daizenshuu 7's statement that the increase in the character's strength past the battle with Freeza cannot be measured in battle powers.
http://www.kanzentai.com/bp.php?id=guide

If SSJ is 50 times base and SSJ2 2 times SSJ and SSJ3 4 times SSJ2, then SSJ3 is 400 times base. For EOZ Base Goku to be as strong as Boo arc SSJ3 Goku, then Goku's base grew 400 times more powerful in those 10 years. Doesn't that seem outrageous?

[Dabooyaka]

Yet Goku fought this amazing individual using only his base form. This amazing guy can be one shotted by Super Saiyan Goku, and Vegeta. Something doesn't add up here.

[FNF]

On p.62-63, it says that Super Saiyan 2 is twice as strong as regular Super Saiyan, and that Super Saiyan 3 is four times as strong as Super Saiyan 2. It also repeats Daizenshuu 7's statement about regular Super Saiyan increasing the battle power by a factor of 50. Somewhat interestingly, the comment on regular Super Saiyan is the only one that uses the term "battle power", while for 2 and 3 it simply says "strength". This may be to go along with Daizenshuu 7's statement that the increase in the character's strength past the battle with Freeza cannot be measured in battle powers.
http://www.kanzentai.com/bp.php?id=guide

If SSJ is 50 times base and SSJ2 2 times SSJ and SSJ3 4 times SSJ2, then SSJ3 is 400 times base. For EOZ Base Goku to be as strong as Boo arc SSJ3 Goku, then Goku's base grew 400 times more powerful in those 10 years. Doesn't that seem outrageous?

So your argument is power levels that AT had done away with because it limited his ability to be creative in fights? Just...lol.

Yet Goku fought this amazing individual using only his base form. This amazing guy can be one shotted by Super Saiyan Goku, and Vegeta. Something doesn't add up here.

Yet Goten and Trunks fought this amazing individual [c18] using only their base forms in a clown suit. This amazing girl can be one shotted by Super Saiyan Goten and Trunks. Something doesn't add up here.

See what I did there? AT doesn't give two shits about that.

[Kaboom]

Just saying "Toriyama would do it my way" doesn't mean much.

[CatouttaHell]

If SSJ is 50 times base and SSJ2 2 times SSJ and SSJ3 4 times SSJ2, then SSJ3 is 400 times base. For EOZ Base Goku to be as strong as Boo arc SSJ3 Goku, then Goku's base grew 400 times more powerful in those 10 years. Doesn't that seem outrageous?

The SEG is non-canon so that isn't evidence of anything. SSjin Gotenks (Pre) > SSjin 3 Goku >>> Base Gotenks (Pre) >>> SSjin 2 Goku is strong evidence that the SSjin multiplier eventually shrunk to a great degree.

And even if it didn't, it still doesn't matter because Toriyama threw out BPs after the Freeza arc and obviously was not thinking about numerical implications at this time.

Going by the manga Battle Powers, Son Goku went from 8,000 to at least 150,000,000 in the span of less than a week. Why again is it impossible for him to become 400 times stronger in 10 years?

[CaBrPi]

If SSJ is 50 times base and SSJ2 2 times SSJ and SSJ3 4 times SSJ2, then SSJ3 is 400 times base. For EOZ Base Goku to be as strong as Boo arc SSJ3 Goku, then Goku's base grew 400 times more powerful in those 10 years. Doesn't that seem outrageous?

The SEG is non-canon so that isn't evidence of anything. SSjin Gotenks (Pre) > SSjin 3 Goku >>> Base Gotenks (Pre) >>> SSjin 2 Goku is strong evidence that the SSjin multiplier eventually shrunk to a great degree.

And even if it didn't, it still doesn't matter because Toriyama threw out BPs after the Freeza arc and obviously was not thinking about numerical implications at this time.

Going by the manga Battle Powers, Son Goku went from 8,000 to at least 150,000,000 in the span of less than a week. Why again is it impossible for him to become 400 times stronger in 10 years?

See, on the way to Namek, Goku was abusing Zenkais and training in 100 Gs.

[NANLIT]

It's easier to increase your battle power 400 times when the initial BP is low. His BP as SSJ3 during the Boo arc would be so huge, to increase that by 400 times in 10 years is mind bongling.

[dbgtFO]

Going by the manga Battle Powers, Son Goku went from 8,000 to at least 150,000,000 in the span of less than a week. Why again is it impossible for him to become 400 times stronger in 10 years?

In that week there was:
1) Training under gravity much greater than Earth's.
2) Power increases, when recovering from the brink of death.
3) Unlocking a completely new transformation.

In those 10 years on Earth, there was:
1) Earth Gravity.
2) No more significant power increases, when recovering from the brink of death.
3) All of the Super Saiyan transformations already unlocked.

Then again you can include the implication from Elder Kaioshin about transforming being inferior as a point that could mean something..
Aren't you already though?

Anyway, I too agree with the notion that looking at it from a strict battle power perspective just isn't that convincing...

[Fox666]

The SEG is non-canon so that isn't evidence of anything.

That's only your oppinion. The franchise never give a word regarding what is "canon" or not.

Besides, do you know anything about the Super Exciting Guide besides the information regarding power multipliers to judge if it is a valid source or not? I don't like the idea that you will throw an entire guidebook in the trash because of that minuscule piece of information.

SSjin Gotenks (Pre) > SSjin 3 Goku >>> Base Gotenks (Pre) >>> SSjin 2 Goku is strong evidence that the SSjin multiplier eventually shrunk to a great degree.

It is not evidence of anything because probably nobody besides yourself believe on that. You assume everybody agrees with all of your opinions and you are using a self-argument

And a "fluctuating multiplier" has never been hinted in any official source, the guidebooks always mentioned 50 times and nothing else. They go as further as giving the multipliers for Super Saiyan 2 and 3, and wouldn't care about something like that?

[hleV]

Goku can tell if someone has a lot of power. He had done that with initial Boo before he powered up, he also did that with Oob. Oob wasn't fighting Goku at a level of Pure Boo.

[Dabooyaka]

I've yet too see the quote were Goku says Oob= Kid Boo in POWER. If said quote is provided, I will retract my argument.

[Fox666]

Here:

Goku: “Your power is identical to the Kid Boo I fought, but now I am stronger than my Super Saiyan 3 self from back then! I estimate my power to be 1.25 post-RoSaT Gotenks.”

Of course I am joking, I think people are over-analyzing some vague lines of Goku.

[Son_Gohan]

“Oh, I see. You still don’t even know how to fly, huh? …I guess there ain’t no helping it. You haven’t had no teacher, and you probably never even considered things like that. Sorry I bad-mouthed you before. Please forgive me. I just wanted to know your true ability. You’re exactly the person I thought you were. As amazin’ as I expected. But you don’t know how to use your power. This is the first time you’ve fought like this, right? How about we live together at my house and I’ll teach you!”

...and there you have it. AT blatantly sets up the base Goku (eoZ) vs Oob fight as a rematch of SSjin3 Goku vs Pure Boo but just with Goku having no set backs.. It is quite frankly bullshit to claim that the base Goku(eoZ)~SSjin3 Goku(Boo) argument is flawed. There are no flaws with it at all.

Except Kid Buu was actually able to use his power at will, while Uub is still inexperienced with using Ki and still has a long way to go. Why would you think to equate their powers?

Just because Uub is the reincarnation of Kid Buu and has the potential to achieve that power does not mean he's already there.

[Saiga]

Pan could've easily come up against "normal" opponents (which she did in her first match, being Mou Kekko) that weren't Z-Warriors, and in that sense, "gotten far". I don't know how the fuck you interpret that as meaning "Pan > Mr. Boo". Since Gokuu said that Pan was the one in their family with the most guts, does that automatically mean Pan's stronger than him?

Actually... I could easily see that. Goten and Trunks were insanely strong kids, and Pan is possibly even stronger by virtue of being Gohan's daughter. It wouldn't surprise me at all.

[Dabooyaka]

Here:

Goku: “Your power is identical to the Kid Boo I fought, but now I am stronger than my Super Saiyan 3 self from back then! I estimate my power to be 1.25 post-RoSaT Gotenks.”

Of course I am joking, I think people are over-analyzing some vague lines of Goku.

Believe it or not, that's the mentality that I've been arguing against.

[FindKenshi]

Goku assured Vegeta that they'd both train to be able to handle an evil Buu if it showed up again, and Vegeta didn't say "What? Are you mad, we could never get that strong!" Goku seemed to think they'd get a lot stronger than their current level, and Vegeta didn't shoot the idea down.

That being said, Goku was excited about training Uub so he could have a rematch with him at full power. You could take this to mean that Goku still considers a Kid Buu-level opponent to be the ultimate test of his skills.

So really, it could go either way.

[dprez]

Goku assured Vegeta that they'd both train to be able to handle an evil Buu if it showed up again, and Vegeta didn't say "What? Are you mad, we could never get that strong!" Goku seemed to think they'd get a lot stronger than their current level, and Vegeta didn't shoot the idea down.

That being said, Goku was excited about training Uub so he could have a rematch with him at full power. You could take this to mean that Goku still considers a Kid Buu-level opponent to be the ultimate test of his skills.

So really, it could go either way.

Goku definitely wants to make Oob stronger than Pure Boo, and Goku definitely got stronger than he was back then.