Paikuhan & Cell debate thread

[NovaSayajinGoku]

Dont forget Paikuhan is the one of the strongest Warrior in the Western Milky Way !

But I think Cell was stronger than him too.

I think Paikuhans attack was just quick and strong. And he's very surprised Cell.
On the other hand, Toei had all just do not want a whole fight.

[DNA]

Dont forget Paikuhan is the one of the strongest Warrior in the Western Milky Way !

But I think Cell was stronger than him too.

I think Paikuhans attack was just quick and strong. And he's very surprised Cell.
On the other hand, Toei had all just do not want a whole fight.

What? oO

[dbgtFO]

^ I think it's only the last two sentences that are hard to understand, but it seems (s)he is saying, that he(Paikuhan) simply surprised Cell(thus allowing the quick defeat even if he was weaker than Cell like Perfect's arguing).
And then that Toei just didn't want to do a proper fight.

Anyway did anyone find out if Paikuhan actually said Goku's power was continously increasing throughout the tournament or whatever it was FindKenshi posted a few pages back?

As for me I still don't see sufficient evidence for changing my mind. Freeza wasn't bulked up like on Namek, when getting defeated either, but that doesn't mean, he was actually stronger than Paikuhan all along.

[Perfect]

Freeza doesn't have any logical reason for being any stronger though. He can't compete with Goku, Cell, Pikkon or anyone else for that matter. One could argue he trained, but there isn't anything implying it.

[FindKenshi]

It's kind of funny that Freeza's been in Hell over three years by that point, along with his father and his underlings, but hasn't really caused any trouble--that we've heard of. But it's not until Cell gets there, that there's the huge revolt. I think Freeza had just accepted his death, but with Cell showing up spouting nonsense about fighting his way out of Hell, Freeza thought he'd go along for the ride in the off chance that they really could escape.

[dbgtFO]

Anyway did anyone find out if Paikuhan actually said Goku's power was continously increasing throughout the tournament or whatever it was FindKenshi posted a few pages back?

http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/7769/paikuhan1.jpg
http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/8083/paikuhan2.jpg
There we have it.

Note: Paikuhan thought this too himself after Goku defeated Malakai in episode 198.

It may also be relevant that in the same episode, before taking off his weights, Paikuhan said Goku was better than he thought:
http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/8919/paikuhan3.jpg

[Perfect]

That could be interpreted as Goku putting more effort than he did against the Ginyus, since he wasn't SSJ.

[dbgtFO]

I guess you think regular state Goku also could have done this then:

I hope it's okay I'm borrowing your pic, Fox..

As that's what "Goku not getting stronger" would imply.

Anyway Goku noted that Tarpikar was so fast, that he(Goku) wouldn't be able to dodge him. Then later on he can't even follow Paikuhan and Olivue's movements with his eyes, which implies even greater speed than Tarpikar.
Then when Goku fought Paikuhan(before Paikuhan dropped his weights and Goku went Super Saiyan) he was capable of keeping up and dodging Paikuhan, so I really find Paikuhan's line to be a valid "This guy got stronger" line as it fits with what we're shown.

Also:

Technique restrictions sure, but that scan dictates Cell had access to his full power, wherever it's from.

It's from the 5th Daizenshuu: Tv Animation Part 2.

[Perfect]

I don't logically see how Pikkon would gauge his strength like that/Goku actually getting that much stronger (which would likely contradict his power growth in seven years of time).

[dbgtFO]

Yes Goku's actual power growth in those 7 years contradicted Goku's filler strength, which is why you shouldn't apply as much logic as you did to this filler story in the first place.

[Fox666]

(which would likely contradict his power growth in seven years of time)

That would only be revealed much later than the Paikuhan filler was released.

[Perfect]

Not really. If you compare the chapter numbers, we know Goku isn't insanely strong by a of contextual evidence (at least from the time the episode came out in August). In the manga by the time Pikkon and Goku fighting comes to fruition, we're at Trunks vs. Goten. We know a significant amount about where each character's strength is.

[dbgtFO]

It wasn't known how strong Goku was at that point in time other than "I've also powered up."
They could get a general idea of Vegeta and Gohan's strengths, since it's implied by Vegeta's statements, that he may have closed the gap between him and the Gohan from 7 years ago, while Gohan hasn't improved in all those years, but Goku is a mystery.

Also it's not relevant.. unless your argument has now become "Toei had an idea of how strong Goku was, so there's no way, they'd knowingly contradict that in this filler arc."
?

[Perfect]

This is in-universe discussion, so I'm not even considering that argument. Logically the manga shows a variety of feats from everyone to show how far they've come. The entire discussion of, "oh we didn't know how strong they'd get," is incredibly invalid. For instance, that's like saying the spaceship we clearly saw Piccolo destroy was an error on Toriyama's part for not watching/caring about filler in the anime. It doesn't make it any less of a plot hole by Toei.

With that said, from a story perspective, it's contradictory and therefore a plot hole. We could argue over Goku's strength being somewhat implied or revealed during the 28th TB, but again, it's not relevant.

[Fox666]

Of course it is relevant. That was how these episodes have been created.

[Perfect]

Considering that has nothing to do with in-universe perspective or any relevance towards it. It's a pretty blatant plot hole no matter what.

[Fox666]

Could be a plot-hole. But you can't say Goku didn't get that strong, at least until the fight with Paikuhan ended.

[Perfect]

There is no could. It's a very blatant plot hole. The gains he made there would be significantly contradictory towards the gains made through the progression of not only the entire story beforehand, but the actual seven years in the afterlife.

[Fox666]

But that would be the same as saying that in GT, Gohan did not transform in Super Saiyan, or that Yamcha did not sense No.18 Ki because it would contradict facts that have been estabilished before. They are plot-holes, but they still happened.

[Perfect]

I already stated that prior. I was saying that there isn't really a possibility in this case for Goku's strength gains to be even remotely possible without being a plot hole. For that matter, it entirely depends on how you interpret every event, including what Pikkon says about Goku (which could even mean he never gained any strength in perspective).