Paikuhan & Cell debate thread

[lash]

To say your viewpoint is so much greater is such a hypocritical and arrogant argument. How I view something isn't “twisted”, but just that, how I view it. If you don't agree with it, that's fine, but pushing your views onto me or anyone else just reflects your hypocritical nature here (notice I'm not pushing my views like you).

-1st paragraph, As I said, Kaiosama is directly shown worried when he hears what Cell and co are doing in Hell. No evidence the guards can't die(they don't even have halos for pete's sake). Why are you so adamant at attempting to make useless unfounded interpretations?
-Kaiosama, unaware of how Paikuhan did it, is not surprised that Paikuhan defeated Cell in a flash. It directly suggests Paikuhan > Cell, or more specifically to the argument at least Paikuhan's attack > Cell's maximum.
-Second paragraph: Don't see any real good points here. As I said, Kaio is shown worried that Cell is turning Hell upside down. He isn't surprised that Paikuhan defeated Cell not because "even if they lose, the villains are still stuck in hell"(are you listening to yourself here, you can't actually tell me you believe this)
-Third Paragraph: No kidding. Perhaps I should have used a harsh tone since post one. It's not arrogant to say your theory is inferior to my own when...well, it quite frankly and downright is. I wouldn't even call it 'my' thoery, it's just the standard and most obvious perspective going when you see Paikuhan flat out dawg Cell that one would think Paikuhan > Cell.
As I mentioned:

A)There's a goblin under my bed making loud banging noises.
Or
B)My sister is nailing a painting on the wall like she told me she would 5 mins ago, which is downstairs and directly under my bed.

These interpretations must certainly hold the same credibility to you huh?
Sure both are entirely possible. But the evidence supporting B) exceeds the evidence of A). The low chances of A) don't even come close to comparing to the high chances of B). In conclusion: B) is a silly viewpoint. It's just as the low chances of "Cell's maximum > Paikuhan's attack" don't even come close to the high chances of "Paikuhan's attack > Cell's maximum". Therefore your interpretation... "Cell's maximum > Paikuhan's attack" is also a silly viewpoint, sorry to say.

Despite being entirely valid interpretations, A) and B) are not equal in credibility. I'm sorry if you think otherwise, but that's just the facts. Just as your unfounded biased theory-with-no-evidence supporting it-for-the-last-12-pages is not equal in credibility. It's as simple as that. Silly theory is silly theory.
-Fourth, the fact that you think mathematics can be subjective at all just makes me realize how far behind the brickwall your perspectives are. I know 'subjective' is among your favorite words, but the truth is...not everything is subjective bro. In a kids cartoon, TOEI had a very obvious notion they were going for when they showed Paikuhan solo Cell in one blow. They certainly weren't going "Lul, hey lets have Paikuhan defeat Cell...only for us to never let the audience/kids know that Cell had a huge amount of power unused, took negative damage, and that in actuality he could own Paikuhan at full power! Yeah lets make Goku talk about how amazing Paikuhan was when he beat Cell, of course we won't have him comment that Cell was suppressed and was defeated unfairly because we wouldn't want anyone knowing that Cell is actually stronger than Paikuhan even though we showed that same Paikuhan crush Cell in one blow!" Wait lemme guess: "No Lash, you're wrong. It's 'subjective' what the creators were thinking, and that interpretation holds as much weight as any other interpretation."
-Fifth, plausibility doesn't matter. The evidence surrounding interpretation do. Using my A) and B) example, both are entirely plausible and with the mechanics can work out without contradiction. Both do not have the same evidence supporting each other. Anyone can say 1+1=2 or 1+1=11 and both "logically work without contradictions" using the conditions based on each interpretation. Does the latter have equal credibility with the former? (Hint: The answer is no.)
-Sixth, Your statements don't directly support the notion "Cell's maximum > Paikuhan". They attempt to support another point, which you then twist and warp by using that to attempt to try and support the main idea. To quickly go over them:

I. Cell is relaxed and taken by surprise as we established.
II. Cell needed recovery time to get back on his feet.
III. Goku is by far weaker than post-zenkai Cell, thus making it nearly impossible for him to injure Paikuhan at all.

I. - Attempts to prove Paikuhan didn't defeat Cell at full power. Which you then try and attempt to use this to say Cell had power greater than Paikuhan. ....As you can see it's a huge stretch and doesn't directly prove that Cell's maximum > Paikuhan(or prove anything at all, for that matter). It can at most only say Paikuhan > Cell suppressed.
II. Attempts to prove Cell needed recovery time, that you think he wasn't given. That if Cell was given this recovery time, he would have flat out went up and pwned Paikuhan. As you can see, it's a laughable piece of evidence, as it addresses nothing concerning Cell's maximum > Paikuhan. Cell needing recovery time or not doesn't magically or automatically hint or mean Cell's maximum > Paikuhan.
III. Attempts to say that since Goku is much weaker than Cell, there is no way a guy greater than Cell should be able to be injured by Goku. Therefore goes on to say that Cell MUST have been suppressed, and is DEFINITELY stronger than Paikuhan at full power. This is probably the only decent half-assed 'evidence' you've said in the entire topic. Unfortunately it's exactly that...half-assed. Whether Goku could injure Paikuhan or not, it doesn't directly mean Cell's maximum> Paikuhan. In fact the only time Goku really hurt Paikuhan is after he nailed him with that Super Kaioken hit. Goku is also stated to have gotten much stronger, very quickly compared to how he was from the Cell Games as I've repeated a trillion times. Weaker people injure stronger people all the time moreover. Therefore there are dozens upon dozens of alternate interpretations to explain why Goku can injure a guy stronger than Cell to the point it really isn't even evidence.

So at most, one pseudo 'evidence' is all you have going for your argument.

Let's look at the other argument's side of "Paikuhan > Cell's maximum":
As for the side "Paikuhan > Cell" the fight itself can be used as evidence. After all, it's Dragonball Z. When has there EVER been a time where someone has defeated another person and NOT been stronger than them without it ever being stated the person who was defeated was holding back/defeated unfairly. That's right, never. And there's no reason to start now. Paikuhan beat Cell, no ill conditions were stated as the cause for his defeat. Therefore Paikuhan > Cell. Simple. It's just that easy. Occam's razor is happy.

Kaio's statements as I've explained directly say such. I mean, have you not even realized that Paikuhan was weighted? Paikuhan wasn't even using his full power, no where near close to it, and he still solo'd Cell. In fact here's a nice little fact for the day for you:
Goku directly states Paikuhan is stronger than he expected after he fights weighted Paikuhan in normal state(Paikuhan states the same to Goku). And yup, Goku was there when he felt the Ki Paikuhan used to one shot Cell. That already means: Paikuhan > SSJ Goku in the tournament>>>>>Base Goku in the tournament >= Paikuhan weighted in tournament > Paikuhan's attack > Cell. So how is Cell's maximum overcoming all that again? Wait wait, lemme guess... it's subjective huh? lol. Or maybe you're going to go with it's a plain ole 'plothole' this time? I'm curious to know what malformed interpretation you're going to conjure up from this part.

Official guidebooks directly state Paikuhan defeated Cell and co over and over again. If there was another unfairness, or "Cell was defeated, but he was actually stronger" bullshit, it would have been said at least once. It never was, and defeated in Dragonball Z with no conditions said, means the guy who defeated the loser was just plain stronger.

The Cell vs Paikuhan picture says Cell’s strength wasn’t any different in Hell.

Nuff said. The picture shows the exact moment Paikuhan defeats Cell. Then goes on and says Cell's power wasn't any different in Hell, and Paikuhan defeats him anyway. Direct implication that Paikuhan > Cell.

Any respectable person should be able to figure out which argument is more credible with more supportive evidence.

-Seventh, even going with the notion that character A(cell) has power in reserves, nothing, and I don't know how many times I'll repeat this...nothing supports or proves that this power you think he has in reserve combined with whatever true power he would have if he hadn't taken initial damage, is stronger than Paikuhan. I know your little negative damage theory all too well. I just don't understand why your theory has to magically mean Cell's maximum is greater than Paikuhan's. Why can't it be : Paikuhan> Cell's maximum >> Cell when Paikuhan attacked him ? What proof anywhere is there to suggest: Cell's maximum > Paikuhan > Cell when Paikuhan attacked him? I'm sure you're going to say, that it could be either and that's reasons why you think both perceptions are equally valid. But guess what? One is credible and one isn't. Because the very fact Paikuhan defeated Cell with no stated handicapped condition should honestly be plenty enough for everyone to get the picture that Paikuhan > Cell. Do i have to re-remind you Paikuhan wasn't even at full power himself? What evidence is there to suggest Cell's full power is greater than Paikuhan's full power when Paikuhan(100% confirmed not at full power) defeated Cell(not 100% confirmed not at full power, but a possibility) in one blow? Where is the logic and justification in this? Pardon me, that's right...there is none.

Unless you can prove my viewpoint wrong or somehow prove your as more credible

Pretty sure I've done so several times now

Sooner or later you're just going to have to accept it no matter how hardheaded and biased(overrating your favorite character) you're seemingly appearing to be. Whether it takes days, months, or years as you said...a silly argument is still a silly argument. Trying to pass passive aggressive remarks like

Of course judging by how you retort in complete ignorance, I assume you'd have no idea how such a procedure would go about being done.

Hopefully you understand the annoying folly in your logic here

you're condescending and otherwise idiotic and hypocritical display of how one would go about interpreting

won't help put evidence for your argument out, thus won't help your argument look any less silly. If you have no new evidence, or anything better to say, then just accept your argument for it is and lets move on. You're obviously riled up(probably from the lack of supporting evidence on your argument ) and it shows. It's for your benefit.

As for the Gogeta claim, the difference is that the person from my understanding didn't propose a theory in which the mechanics would actually let him be stronger, such as I have. If you look at the scene though, Janemba does try to fight back and does fall short, so I'm not entirely sure what's left for interpretation in that respect.

It's about the same thing really. All the guy has to say is that Janemba as he was seemingly powering up, was not given enough 'time' (does that sound familiar?) to do so. That he was halted when feeling Gogeta about to make a move. Gogeta then air punches him, Janemba(since he has no choice) then tries his best to fight with the amount of power he has gathered. Gogeta finishes him off though, never giving Janemba a chance to go to his maximum power. I guess the theories: "Janemba maximum > SSJ Gogeta > Janmeba-when-Gogeta-attacked-him" & "SSJ Gogeta > Janemba's maximum" all sound equally credible to you I presume?

[VegettoEX]

The moderation team and rest of the community are fully done with this conversation.

Every single response is filled with back-handed comments, arrogant dismissals, vaguely-hidden claims of everyone else being out to get each other, and the same points repeated again and again by the same people with no-one willing to either compromise or simply agree to disagree on friendly terms.

I've asked several times why it is that these types of strength-related, "in-universe" discussions invariably end up this way, and no-one seems to be able to (or is willing to?) answer. The common factors in each case are (1) strength discussions, and (2) the specific members (lash, Perfect, FindKenshi, Fox666, DNA) contributing to the discussions. This can be dealt with in a couple ways -- we can either disallow the strength discussions, or we can remove the members. I'm not willing to do either of those (I enjoy reading all types of discussions, and I enjoy hearing from all types of fans), so that means it's up to you all to actually converse and conduct yourselves as the adults you agreed to act as (twice!) prior to registering for this forum.

Personally, I've had just about enough of this nonsense. It makes the contributing members look foolish, and it makes the community as a whole look foolish. At the end of the day, I'm not willing to allow you to make a mockery of this community that everyone else has such a great time being a part of and contributing to, so if I have to remove specific members, I guess I'll have to.

It's really simple: just be an awesome person. Listen to what other people have to say, have a conversation with them, and act like the type of person you'd want to hang out with and discuss this stuff with. If that's really so difficult, you're in the wrong community.