Cell and Super Saiyan

[Piccolo Daimao]

I was thinking about Perfect Cell's ability to assume a bulky Super Saiyan Grade III-esque form, and after his Zenkai, he's powered up and generates an aura similar to Super Saiyan 2, lightning sparks and all. And then looked back on first-form Cell powering up into an aura that's reminiscent of regular Super Saiyan.

So I was wondering...does Cell gain the ability to power up corresponding to the ascending stages of SS in each of his forms? In his first-form, he powers up, generating a SS-esque aura around him. In his perfect form, he's able to bulk up like a SSG3. Later, following his Zenkai, he powers up with an SS2-esque aura. So maybe, in his second-form, he can bulk up like a SSG2?

This also piqued my interest about his genetic make-up. Unlike the actual Saiyans, it requires no training for Cell to power up like this: simply absorbing the Androids to boost his strength. So can he actually train to increase his power, perhaps even to the point that he'd be able to assume a Super Saiyan 3-esque form? Or can he only rise in power through absorbing life forms?

[hleV]

Cell has Saiyans' cells, so I'm assuming he can do similar things to those of Saiyans, just differently, as he's not really a Saiyan himself. I'd even go so far and call Cell's ways to do Saiyan-like things superior.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Yeah, I agree. I wonder if he can become an Oozaru. I know that he doesn't have a Saiyan tail, but Vegeta said something about having a special thing in their tail that, when they absorb Bruits Waves exceeding 17 million zeno through their eyes, reacts and they transform. I wonder if Cell has something like that in his tail, meaning that if he saw the full moon, he might be able to transform into an Oozaru-like form.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I believe that Cell's power-up is indeed Super Saiyan. In the manga, other characters exept Super Saiyans rarely have auras when standing. Also, I believe that he is not normal Super Saiyan, but a Super Saiyan Full Power, since it doesn't consume his ki, he is always like that, and the shape of the aura is Super Saiyan Full Power, instead of normal Super Saiyan. So, I believe that Cell has achived Super Saiyan Full Power, Super Saiyan Grade 3, and Super Saiyan 2.

[Gonstead]

Yeah, I agree. I wonder if he can become an Oozaru. I know that he doesn't have a Saiyan tail, but Vegeta said something about having a special thing in their tail that, when they absorb Bruits Waves exceeding 17 million zeno through their eyes, reacts and they transform. I wonder if Cell has something like that in his tail, meaning that if he saw the full moon, he might be able to transform into an Oozaru-like form.

That's a question I asked a few months ago whether he could become Oozaru or not.

I also wonder regarding to his Namekian cels whether he could stretch his limbs and become huge like at the 23rd budokai tenkaichi.

[Bussani]

This is an interesting comparison that people notice now and then. Fox's thread about auras points out how Cell's auras match the various Super Saiyan states, too.

Personally, I think Cell seems a bit like Grade II when he finally powers up to his full power. His muscles seem subtly larger and his aura becomes very much like a Grade II's.

[Son_Gohan]

I also wonder regarding to his Namekian cels whether he could stretch his limbs and become huge like at the 23rd budokai tenkaichi.

Is that not what he did against Super Saiyan 2 Gohan out of desperation?

[Bussani]

Is that not what he did against Super Saiyan 2 Gohan out of desperation?

He bulked up like Trunks did. That's different from Piccolo increasing his size at the 23rd tournament.

Out of interest, Daizenshuu 4 says that Piccolo's stretching and growing ability is a unique trait that he inherited from the Demon Clan. I'm not sure if Cell would have something like that or not. That said, Daizenshuu 7 says it's an attack that takes advantage of the unique abilities Namekians have, so who knows?

[Kaboom]

Out of interest, Daizenshuu 4 says that Piccolo's stretching and growing ability is a unique trait that he inherited from the Demon Clan. I'm not sure if Cell would have something like that or not. That said, Daizenshuu 7 says it's an attack that takes advantage of the unique abilities Namekians have, so who knows?

I like to think it's half-and-half. It's an innate Namekian ability (perhaps mainly for Warrior-types), but Piccolo thinks it's something demonic before he realizes his true origins as an alien.

The idea that Cell actually growing in size somewhat when he bulks up stemming from Piccolo stretchy/growy physiology is interesting.

[Son_Gohan]

He bulked up like Trunks did. That's different from Piccolo increasing his size at the 23rd tournament.

He bulks up only his muscles against Trunks, but when he does it while facing Gohan his whole body composition changes.

I would assume Cell's ability to manipulate his body to such a degree would've came from his Namekian genes, or perhaps even Freeza's.

[Bussani]

He bulks up only his muscles against Trunks, but when he does it while facing Gohan his whole body composition changes.

I would assume Cell's ability to manipulate his body to such a degree would've came from his Namekian genes, or perhaps even Freeza's.

Ah, I see. I thought that might have been what you meant after reading Kaboom's post. Sorry for misunderstanding.

[Fox666]

He bulked up like Trunks did. That's different from Piccolo increasing his size at the 23rd tournament.

He bulks up only his muscles against Trunks, but when he does it while facing Gohan his whole body composition changes.

I would assume Cell's ability to manipulate his body to such a degree would've came from his Namekian genes, or perhaps even Freeza's.

Since Trunks mention that it's the same mistake as he did, I assume that's something related unique to Saiyans.

[Son_Gohan]

Since Trunks mention that it's the same mistake as he did, I assume that's something related unique to Saiyans.

Muscle enlargement? Even Roshi was shown capable of that.

Cell's physiology allows him to take it further it would appear. Such as when he balloons up while self-destructing to prevent Gohan from attacking him prematurely. It's not something a Saiyan could realistically do.

[Piccolo Daimao]

I always thought that Cell's bulked-up form was parallel to Super Saiyan Grade III, since Cell showed it off to Trunks to show how futile his SSG3 was. I don't think it's that much different to what the Saiyans did.

[Pantalones]

Like everything else about Cell, his abilities probably use some bits and pieces from all of the different species he was made from. Like how his regeneration isn't just an exact copy of Piccolo's, it also has elements of Freeza's "survive almost any injury" ability (allowing him to survive losing his head or torso as long as the mysterious "nucleus" isn't destroyed, unlike Piccolo) and the Saiyans' near-death boosts (though they only kick in when he gets really near death, thanks to his regeneration making ordinary potentially-lethal wounds not so special anymore.)

So his ultra-bulked-up state (the one he uses against Gohan, where his frame actually gets bigger rather than just bulking his muscles up but otherwise staying the same size) very well could be a combination of something like "Ultra Super Saiyan" and Piccolo's growth ability. Maybe it even has some elements of Freeza's bulked-up 100% mode (I remember someone mentioning that his regular "full power" state, before he gets desperate and bulks up, reminded them of Super Saiyan Grade 2/"Ascended" Super Saiyan--maybe that's actually a combination of Super Saiyan and Freeza's 100% state instead, since it is supposed to be his maximum. And then his bulked-up form he showed to Trunks is the equivalent of Super Saiyan Grade 3, while the giant ultra-bulked-up form he used against Gohan is that plus Freeza's 100% plus Piccolo's growth all smashed into one insanely powerful but also excessively slow and energy-draining form.)

Which could mean that Cell has a lot more room for improvement even after gaining his "Super Perfect" SSj2-like form--he could develop not only his equivalent of Super Saiyan 3, but his equivalent of Cooler's 5th form... or even a combination of the two. Maybe he could even fuse with Kami, if Piccolo hadn't thought of that first... if it's possible to do that by force, anyway, since Kami wouldn't go willingly. Would he be "Namekian enough" to use Namekian fusion, or would he count as "Piccolo enough" to fuse with Kami even if he wouldn't be able to merge with any other Namekians?

[Piccolo Daimao]

Is it ever confirmed that Cell's ability to survive losing his head or torso as long his nucleus isn't destroyed was Freeza, though? The most that we can tell he gets from Freeza is his ability to survive in space and the techniques we were shown. Although it is interesting how, even after being sliced in half, he remains bulked-up.

Also, are the bulked-up forms he shows Trunks and Gohan respectively really that different? I always thought it was roughly the same, just that it looked bigger the second time because he was standing next to the comparatively small Gohan. It seems to be implied that way, judging by Trunks' comment.

Chapter: 411 (DBZ 217), P8.1
Context: after Cell bulks up
Trunks: “He’s using a transformation that’s too concerned with power, so his speed can’t keep up…Cell himself is making the same mistake he pointed out to me…! He’s really lost it…”

So the story seems to tell us that Cell's using a transformation in the same vein as Trunks' Super Saiyan Grade III, not some kind of combination of Piccolo's growth ability (which didn't sacrifice speed) and Freeza's full power (didn't sacrifice speed either; only drained energy).

Chapter: 187, P2.1-2
Context: after Piccolo becomes a giant
Kame-sennin: “He’s truly fearsome. Despite becoming gigantic, his swiftness hasn’t changed at all.”
Goku: “That kind of size don’t mean nothin’!”

Chapter: 325 (DBZ 131), P8.2-5
Context: after Goku and full-power Freeza have fought for a while
Goku: “I quit. [ ] As a backlash from you using your 100% power, you’ve passed your peak, and your ki is steadily dropping…I’m starting to think that there’s no point in fighting any more than this…”

Could someone provide panels of Cell's bulked-up forms against Trunks and Gohan respectively, for comparison, please?

But yeah, if Cell developed his own equivalents of SS, SSG2 and/or SSG3, maybe he could even develop his own equivalent of SS3. I also theorized in an earlier post if he was able to become Oozaru. But Coola's not manga canon. It's fine if you want to believe that he is, but I personally have trouble with Coola, who can apparently control his battle power better than Freeza without the need for suppression forms, somehow developing a fifth form. Nothing about that's really implied from their race, even though we only see two members of them (and we don't even know what form King Cold's in, even though he resembles Freeza's second-form).

I also doubt that he could merge with God, since I don't think they'd be compatible. He's not wholly Namekian; he's an amalgmation of other races, not to mention that if warrior-type and dragon-type Namekians can't merge or only warrior-types can merge with other warrior-types or whatever the Daizenshuu says (Piccolo and God are a special case, as they were once one and Piccolo was reincarnated from Daimaou, a dragon-type just like God), then how the hell is whatever Cell is going to be able to merge with God?

[lash]

Chapter: 411 (DBZ 217), P8.1
Context: after Cell bulks up
Trunks: “He’s using a transformation that’s too concerned with power, so his speed can’t keep up…Cell himself is making the same mistake he pointed out to me…! He’s really lost it…”

So the story seems to tell us that Cell's using a transformation in the same vein as Trunks' Super Saiyan Grade III, not some kind of combination of Piccolo's growth ability (which didn't sacrifice speed) and Freeza's full power (didn't sacrifice speed either; only drained energy).

Yeah, personally I always saw Cell's bulked up form that he used against Gohan as a SSJ grade 4 equivalent. The grade states are just literally forms where the user is inflating only their muscles with Ki. I don't see any reason why Cell, who was far stronger than any normal SSJ at the time, couldn't just pump even more Ki into his muscles and go further into the SSJ grade states that Trunks and Goku weren't able to do (yet). Worth mentioning, Cell's body composition and aura especially change compared to the SSJ grade 3 equivalent he performed to Trunks.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Chapter: 411 (DBZ 217), P8.1
Context: after Cell bulks up
Trunks: “He’s using a transformation that’s too concerned with power, so his speed can’t keep up…Cell himself is making the same mistake he pointed out to me…! He’s really lost it…”

So the story seems to tell us that Cell's using a transformation in the same vein as Trunks' Super Saiyan Grade III, not some kind of combination of Piccolo's growth ability (which didn't sacrifice speed) and Freeza's full power (didn't sacrifice speed either; only drained energy).

Yeah, personally I always saw Cell's bulked up form that he used against Gohan as a SSJ grade 4 equivalent. The grade states are just literally forms where the user is inflating only their muscles with Ki. I don't see any reason why Cell, who was far stronger than any normal SSJ at the time, couldn't just pump even more Ki into his muscles and go further into the SSJ grade states that Trunks and Goku weren't able to do (yet). Worth mentioning, Cell's body composition and aura especially change compared to the SSJ grade 3 equivalent he performed to Trunks.

That's a good theory. Once again, could someone provide panels to compare? I wonder if Toriyama did this intentionally, or he just forgot how he drew it beforehand. I feel like it's the former, because why intentionally differ them when they're implied to be the same thing? Unless Super Saiyan Grade 2/3 or whatever further method of bulking up by sacrificing speed for power is all grouped in the same bank. But could a Grade 4 even be possible? Couldn't there be a limit as to how much you can take the regular Super Saiyan until you discover the more efficient way of powering-up that is Super Saiyan 2 (which we see Cell's equivalent of after his Zenkai)? Or is it merely Cell having a different constitution to the "natural" Saiyans, so he can handle more power or whatever?

Then I guess there's some support for that, since Gokuu mentions both SSG2 and SSG3 as being inherently flawed (and, to a lesser or larger extent, depending on the way you look at it, regular SS too, since he decided to master it), citing speed (which was only the latter) and energy consumption (both) as its problems, even though SSG2 Vegeta didn't have any problems demolishing Cell. But maybe that would be a problem that'd only be exposed later on, with Gokuu himself saying it and Perfect Cell being a whole other monster who can regenerate and has demonstrated that he can do something like it himself, but chose not to.

[Fox666]

Note that Cell size doesn't change when he uses the first form against Trunks, while he becomes a giant during his fight with Gohan.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Yeah, like I thought, they do look different. But is Toriyama ever really consistent with auras (I think there have been multiple threads showing how he isn't, and that it could be more about him showing the level of power output certain characters are using, which is why even Piccolo displays a SS aura after merging with God)? And read my last post again.