The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[Fox666]

Do you believe Bubbles has a higher battle power than Goku or Yamcha at the time?

Nice one.

[Kaboom]

By #17, I meant Super #17.

Ah, okay. Well then...

Cell is much smarter than Goku or anyone else in GT. Smart enough that he'll catch on to Super 17's energy-absorption very quickly. Quickly enough that Super 17 won't get much power out of Cell, whom he'll end up still significantly weaker than. Weaker enough that smarty-pants Cell can figure out plenty of ways to kill Super 17 that don't require Ki attacks.




As for the earlier discussion about gravity as a way to measure power... Yeah, it's kind of inconsistent. I think the best way to go about it is just to say that gravity will be a noticeable hindrance if you're not used t it, but a high power level CAN make earning to overcome it easier. It's obviously never going to be as simple as "high power level = high gravity tolerance."

[lash]

It depends if Super 17's energy absorption tolerance is still SSJ4 tier or if it has weakened along with his SSJ Goku-like battle power handicap.

-If it's the latter, and if Super 17 only starts out at the level of SSJ Goku(not even normal FP Perfect Cell), then Cell could just overload him whenever he feels like it. There's so much of a gap of power between "Super Perfect Cell" and SSJ Goku, I don't see Super 17 being able to absorb through such a gap in power. He'd actually explode as he almost did with Goku's Juubai Kamehameha. Cell wins easily.

-If it's the former, I don't see how Cell could pull off winning easily. IT was shown ineffective against Super 17 and Cell doesn't know Ryuken. Cell could brawl if he catches on early, but I don't see him catching on early in the first place. Knowing Cell, if Super 17 is at Goku's level, Cell would likely fight at the same level he fought Goku at. Cell certainly has the potential to be smarter than Goku in pure fighting sense, but as of currently I haven't seen anything to merit him even as good as Goku in that sense. Lets not forget Cell's general arrogant nature while in his Perfect form. It would likely take awhile before he realizes Super 17 has been absorbing all his Ki attacks, and by then it would probably be way too late. Super 17 pulverizes him.

Cell is much smarter than Goku or anyone else in GT.

I think you're giving Cell way too much credit there!

[Perfect]

Again, Gohan is merely stating the changes from his environment, he's not complaining. He's basically commenting on how feels different from normal. Gohan saying he feels heavy, can't breathe that well, feeling really hot and being surprised by the vast emptiness of the room is a product of his environment changing on him. Notice that Gohan saying he feels heavy and walking perfectly fine is completely different than Goku, Yamcha and Trunks all struggling. He moves perfectly fine with no trouble whatsoever.

Yeah, Trunks' case merely shows he doesn't have high enough power to the point where it would override his inexperience with 150x gravity.

Well of course he doesn't have a high enough battle power, that's the point. Vegeta during the Cell arc quite clearly did, thus pegging him above Trunks.

"At the Youth Division of the 25th Tenkaichi Budoukai, he defeated Goten and won the championship. He and Goten then participated in the Adult Division as Mighty Mask, demonstrating strength on par with No. 18's, until she managed to see through their disguise. He passed through the finals at the 28th Tenkaichi Budoukai, but the tournament's final results are unknown."

That's the same as saying #18 was holding back until she realized whom she was fighting.

Do you believe Bubbles has a higher battle power than Goku or Yamcha at the time?

Logically he'd have to have a higher battle power.

Kaio - 3,500

We can assume somewhere between 2,000 and 3,000 would be where someone wouldn't be affected by it.

Yamcha - 1,480
Goku - 416

Neither of them were close to those numbers.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Do you believe Bubbles has a higher battle power than Goku or Yamcha at the time?

Logically he'd have to have a higher battle power.

Kaio - 3,500

We can assume somewhere between 2,000 and 3,000 would be where someone wouldn't be affected by it.

Yamcha - 1,480
Goku - 416

Neither of them were close to those numbers.

No offence, but...are you serious? Are you actually implying that Bubbles, a little monkey who's not even a warrior, was stronger than Gokuu and/or Yamcha, let alone being between 2k and 3k?

Isn't it easier to just accept that how gravity corresponds to power and stuff is inconsistent and Toriyama didn't think that much about it?

[Perfect]

I don't see how it's inconsistent, he's a mystical monkey that lives with one of the upper gods, why wouldn't he have a high battle power? Just look at how fast he can run under it. Mister Popo was at a thousand, so I don't see why his superior wouldn't be stronger. Unless you want to chalk it up to something like he's more resilient, similar to how Saiyans' skin are?

[Piccolo Daimao]

I don't see how it's inconsistent, he's a mystical monkey that lives with one of the upper gods, why wouldn't he have a high battle power? Just look at how fast he can run under it. Mister Popo was at a thousand, so I don't see why his superior wouldn't be stronger. Unless you want to chalk it up to something like he's more resilient, similar to how Saiyans' skin are?

He can run faster than Gokuu under it because Gokuu's simply not used to it. We don't know much more than Bubbles other than that he's Kaiou's pet monkey. Maybe it is about resilience; who knows? All we know is that this gravity business is inconsistent and obviously not thought through particularly well.

And this:

He is ridiculously fast due to living under the powerful gravity of Planet Kaio, which is 10 times that of Earth.

I don't know what Mr. Popo has anything to do with it (let alone how ridiculous him being at 1,030 is anyway).

[lash]

Logically he'd have to have a higher battle power.

We can assume somewhere between 2,000 and 3,000 would be where someone wouldn't be affected by it.

You really think that monkey could kick Goku, Yamcha, and by extension...Raditz around the curb with no effort at all with such a huge battle power?

Well...
That's interesting...

Since you assume 2,000-3,000 is required to not feel 10x gravity at all...then do you think Raditz, being an inhabitant of Planet Vegeta since birth can not handle 10x Earth's gravity?

[Perfect]

He can run faster than Gokuu under it because Gokuu's simply not used to it. We don't know much more than Bubbles other than that he's Kaiou's pet monkey. Maybe it is about resilience; who knows? All we know is that this gravity business is inconsistent and obviously not thought through particularly well.

I don't see how it's inconsistent, nothing says Bubbles can't be resilient or have a battle power over 416... I mean it's 416. Goku got used to it once he finally raised his battle power enough to tolerate it. Getting used to it, would be living under it, learning how to treat objects. Struggling would only stop once one's battle power were to be high enough. Bubbles could very easily have some supernatural quality about him that lets him maneuver so well, or his battle power could be well over a thousand, I mean it's only a thousand. I'd say he's probably around 1,500-2,000, how does one not get stronger under living with that gravity every day? Does being a monkey somehow make him impervious to getting stronger? What's him being little have to do with anything? Chaozu is three feet tall, but that doesn't stop him, at all.

Mister Popo is from the afterlife, like Bubbles. His battle power was over a thousand, so I dunno why a monkey from the afterlife couldn't, especially one that walks under such intense gravity.

Since you assume 2,000-3,000 is required to not feel 10x gravity at all...then do you think Raditz, being an inhabitant of Planet Vegeta since birth can not handle 10x Earth's gravity?

I thought about that, in fact I referred to the Bardock special with Goku only being at a battle of... 1-2? I chalked it up to either he's a Saiyan, so like their naturally resilient skin, that they were naturally resilient to the gravity (if they're born on Vegeta, granted Goku's a Saiyan and struggled with it on Kaio's, so maybe it has something to do with their strength gains on Vegeta). It could also be the gravity's altered in the hospital room? Who knows, it could even be that they can't really do much as an infant and have to learn in an environment where the gravity is reduced? I'm not sure, we know that Vegeta as a little kid could easily handle it, but we could also gather by that, that his battle power was well over 1,000 given all of his training. That reminds me, Saiyan children was put to work by being sent to conquer foreign worlds all the time, so they're pretty much put to work from birth, that could definitely mean something.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Buubles doesn't even have the intelligence to talk, yet he could have trained so hard?

[Perfect]

Buubles doesn't even have the intelligence to talk, yet he could have trained so hard?

I didn't realize intelligence equated to battle power, Innocent Boo must be pretty weak...

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Majin Boo was an artificial magical being. At least he can talk...

[Piccolo Daimao]

He can run faster than Gokuu under it because Gokuu's simply not used to it. We don't know much more than Bubbles other than that he's Kaiou's pet monkey. Maybe it is about resilience; who knows? All we know is that this gravity business is inconsistent and obviously not thought through particularly well.

I don't see how it's inconsistent, nothing says Bubbles can't be resilient or have a battle power over 416... I mean it's 416. Goku got used to it once he finally raised his battle power enough to tolerate it. Getting used to it, would be living under it, learning how to treat objects. Struggling would only stop once one's battle power were to be high enough. Bubbles could very easily have some supernatural quality about him that lets him maneuver so well, or his battle power could be well over a thousand, I mean it's only a thousand. I'd say he's probably around 1,500-2,000, how does one not get stronger under living with that gravity every day? Does being a monkey somehow make him impervious to getting stronger? What's him being little have to do with anything? Chaozu is three feet tall, but that doesn't stop him, at all.

Mister Popo is from the afterlife, like Bubbles. His battle power was over a thousand, so I dunno why a monkey from the afterlife couldn't, especially one that walks under such intense gravity.

But yet again, we don't know anything about Bubbles other than the fact that he's Kaiou's pet monkey, so you have no basis for your speculation. Bubbles being able to run easily on Kaiou's planet does not automatically equal him being over 416, especially when nothing in the manga nor any of the official publications even remotely suggests that. Maybe he is resilient, but that doesn't mean he's stronger than Gokuu. Why would you even come to that conclusion based on something as inconclusive as that?#

No, nothing says that Bubbles can't have a battle power over 416. But nothing says that he can.

Mr. Popo himself said that he had been trained by God, crediting his strength to him, and this is another matter, but I'm still skeptical of that 1,030. Is there any reason he needs to be that strong?

Chapter: 164, P7.1-3
Goku: “Amazin’…Mister Popo, you really are incredible! That’s why I couldn’t beat you!”
Popo: “Heh, well…Mister Popo has learned a whole, whole lot from God. That’s why I’m great.”
Goku: “So this ‘God’ guy is even more amazin’!?”
Popo: “Of course. God is far, far more incredible.”

[Perfect]

Majin Boo was an artificial magical being. At least he can talk...

Bubbles is a supernatural monkey from the afterlife that lives under x10 Earth's gravity, who can communicate and understand things like a human.

But yet again, we don't know anything about Bubbles other than the fact that he's Kaiou's pet monkey, so you have no basis for your speculation. Bubbles being able to run easily on Kaiou's planet does not automatically equal him being over 416, especially when nothing in the manga nor any of the official publications even remotely suggests that.

Mr. Popo said himself that he had been trained by God, and this is another matter, but I'm still skeptical of that 1,030. Is there any reason he needs to be that strong?

My basis is that he lives under x10 Earth's gravity with an upper god, which is similar to Popo.

Bubbles trains everyday under x10 gravity, so how's that any different? Popo doesn't need a reason to be stronger, he just is, why does that require skepticism? A character only gets to be strong if there's a reason for it? Bubble's reason is that he moves under x10 the gravity of Earth, helping Kaio train people.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Majin Boo was an artificial magical being. At least he can talk...

Bubbles is a supernatural monkey from the afterlife that lives under x10 Earth's gravity, who can communicate and understand things like a human.

Where did you got that from?

[Perfect]

Majin Boo was an artificial magical being. At least he can talk...

Bubbles is a supernatural monkey from the afterlife that lives under x10 Earth's gravity, who can communicate and understand things like a human.

Where did you got that from?

He lives in the afterlife, the afterlife by nature is supernatural.

[Piccolo Daimao]

But yet again, we don't know anything about Bubbles other than the fact that he's Kaiou's pet monkey, so you have no basis for your speculation. Bubbles being able to run easily on Kaiou's planet does not automatically equal him being over 416, especially when nothing in the manga nor any of the official publications even remotely suggests that.

Mr. Popo said himself that he had been trained by God, and this is another matter, but I'm still skeptical of that 1,030. Is there any reason he needs to be that strong?

My basis is that he lives under x10 Earth's gravity with an upper god, which is similar to Popo.

Bubbles trains everyday under x10 gravity, so how's that any different? Popo doesn't need a reason to be stronger, he just is, why does that require skepticism? A character only gets to be strong if there's a reason for it? Bubble's reason is that he moves under x10 the gravity of Earth, helping Kaio train people.

How is that similar to Popo at all? Mr. Popo is God's assistant and was trained by him on Earth. Bubbles is only ever confirmed to be Kaiou's pet, not his assistant or anything like that.

Yet again, nothing suggests that Bubbles "trains". His "helping" to train Kaiou train others seemingly only extends to him just running away from them. How could you even class that as training to become stronger?

Bubbles is a supernatural monkey from the afterlife that lives under x10 Earth's gravity, who can communicate and understand things like a human.

Where did you got that from?

He lives in the afterlife, the afterlife by nature is supernatural.

Just because he lives in the afterlife doesn't automatically mean he's supernatural. None of the official publications says anything like that.

A gentle, mysterious monkey who the single Kaio keeps as a pet in the Heavenly Realm. He's not a dead monkey, but rather one who lives in the afterlife. He is ridiculously fast due to living under the powerful gravity of Planet Kaio, which is 10 times that of Earth. When Cell self-destructed with Goku, he was unfortunately brought down with them, becoming an actual dead monkey.

And no, "mysterious" does not equate to "supernatural".

[Perfect]

But yet again, we don't know anything about Bubbles other than the fact that he's Kaiou's pet monkey, so you have no basis for your speculation. Bubbles being able to run easily on Kaiou's planet does not automatically equal him being over 416, especially when nothing in the manga nor any of the official publications even remotely suggests that.

Mr. Popo said himself that he had been trained by God, and this is another matter, but I'm still skeptical of that 1,030. Is there any reason he needs to be that strong?

My basis is that he lives under x10 Earth's gravity with an upper god, which is similar to Popo.

Bubbles trains everyday under x10 gravity, so how's that any different? Popo doesn't need a reason to be stronger, he just is, why does that require skepticism? A character only gets to be strong if there's a reason for it? Bubble's reason is that he moves under x10 the gravity of Earth, helping Kaio train people.

How is that similar to Popo at all? Mr. Popo is God's assistant and was trained by him on Earth. Bubbles is only ever confirmed to be Kaiou's pet, not his assistant or anything like that.

Yet again, nothing suggests that Bubbles "trains" or anything of the sort. His "helping" to train Kaiou train others seemingly only extends to him just running away from them. How could you even class that as training to become stronger?

Popo - assistant to a god.
Bubbles - pet to a god.

Running on Earth is training, running under x10 gravity is surely training. He's quite clearly accustomed to the gravity, meaning he's strong enough to run under it. Goku only catches him when his battle power raises high enough to tolerate the gravity.

Just because he lives in the afterlife doesn't automatically mean he's supernatural. None of the official publications says anything like that.
And no, "mysterious" does not equate to "supernatural".

Because Kaio grabbed a random monkey and placed it under x10 gravity, one that just happened to be intelligent. What is he then? Something that isn't dead in the afterlife, by nature should be supernatural. In fact, the Daizenshuu goes out of its way to state he's not a dead monkey, which would indicate he'd be from outside the afterlife.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Popo - assistant to a god.
Bubbles - pet to a god.

Running on Earth is training, running under x10 gravity is surely training. He's quite clearly accustomed to the gravity, meaning he's strong enough to run under it. Goku only catches him when his battle power raises high enough to tolerate the gravity.

Obviously, assistant is different to pet. I mean, where do I start? An assistant is actually a job. He's accustomed to the gravity because he's used to it. As Kaiou's pet, he's presumably been living there for years.

Running does not increase your power. It may improve your leg muscles, but nothing's suggested in the series that it literally rises your strength. Gokuu running under x10 gravity was training because it was him learning to become accustomed to the gravity so Kaiou could put him under the real training, in which they would spar and learn to control ki more efficiently so, hopefully, he'd be able to pull off the Kaiouken and Genki-Dama.

Just because he lives in the afterlife doesn't automatically mean he's supernatural. None of the official publications says anything like that.
And no, "mysterious" does not equate to "supernatural".

Because Kaio grabbed a random monkey and placed it under x10 gravity, one that just happened to be intelligent. What is he then? Something that isn't dead in the afterlife, by nature should be supernatural.

How do you jump to these conclusions like this? And how do we know that Bubbles is "intelligent", which is entirely subjective and people have different definitions of that word anyway? He can't even speak.

Look, we simply aren't given enough about this type of thing to make definitive conclusions, not to mention the ambuguity/inconsistencies over how gravity corresponds to strength. It's not as cut-and-dry, black-and-white as you think.

[lash]

I don't see how it's inconsistent, nothing says Bubbles can't be resilient or have a battle power over 416... I mean it's 416.

Yes, but that 416 has enough power to casually shatter the moon in a Ki blast. It's very hard to believe that monkey is over 5 times that power. You're literally saying as Goku was trying to catch him, Bubbles could have casually turned around, casually and jokingly kneed Goku, and literally put him out of commission several times worse than even Raditz did. Don't you think that's a stretch?

I thought about that, in fact I referred to the Bardock special with Goku only being at a battle of... 1-2? I chalked it up to either he's a Saiyan, so like their naturally resilient skin, that they were naturally resilient to the gravity (if they're born on Vegeta, granted Goku's a Saiyan and struggled with it on Kaio's, so maybe it has something to do with their strength gains on Vegeta). It could also be the gravity's altered in the hospital room? Who knows, it could even be that they can't really do much as an infant and have to learn in an environment where the gravity is reduced? I'm not sure, we know that Vegeta as a little kid could easily handle it, but we could also gather by that, that his battle power was well over 1,000 given all of his training. That reminds me, Saiyan children was put to work by being sent to conquer foreign worlds all the time, so they're pretty much put to work from birth, that could definitely mean something.

That sounds like a lot of factors to keep up with. It's like a buggy Windows 95 with a hundred thousand patches needed and required to make it even relatively stable. Wouldn't it be just easier to you know...think that gravity isn't entirely dependent on power level in the exact way that you're thinking?