The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Perfect » Sun Feb 26, 2012 7:47 pm

Obviously, assistant is different to pet. I mean, where do I start? An assistant is actually a job. He's accustomed to the gravity because he's used to it. As Kaiou's pet, he's presumably been living there for years.

Running does not increase your power. It may improve your leg muscles, but nothing's suggested in the series that it literally rises your strength. Gokuu running under x10 gravity was training because it was him learning to become accustomed to the gravity so Kaiou could put him under the real training, in which they would spar and learn to control ki more efficiently so, hopefully, he'd be able to pull off the Kaiouken and Genki-Dama.
You do realize it doesn't make a difference what he is, since the point is that he's affiliated with a god? Goku trying to walk under the gravity quite clearly increased his strength. Again, that "Real training" would only take place 'cause Goku would be strong enough to handle the gravity, in which he'd of course need to be stronger. He got stronger by walking under it, thus by that logic running would do the same. Note Piccolo not struggling under it with a battle power of 3,000, note Yamcha not struggling like Goku.
How do you jump to these conclusions like this? And how do we know that Bubbles is "intelligent", which is entirely subjective and people have different definitions of that word anyway? He can't even speak.

Look, we simply aren't given enough about this type of thing to make definitive conclusions, not to mention the ambuguity/inconsistencies over how gravity corresponds to strength. It's not as cut-and-dry, black-and-white as you think.
He listens to Kaio like a human would, he communicates with Kaio and Gregory like a human would. So what if he can't speak? Maybe he's unable to? Your "inconsistencies" are entirely subjective. Not to mention you haven't even disputed it, with y'know, your trivial "assistant vs. pet" argument.

By your logic, this man is not an Earthling or human.
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Yes, but that 416 has enough power to casually shatter the moon in a Ki blast. It's very hard to believe that monkey is over 5 times that power. You're literally saying as Goku was trying to catch him, Bubbles could have casually turned around, casually and jokingly kneed Goku, and literally put him out of commission several times worse than even Raditz did. Don't you think that's a stretch?
Not really, seeing that Bubbles may not have any knowledge of how to use chi. We could just say he's just strong due to the gravity, maybe his battle power mainly attributes to speed, but I've always found there to be a correlation of some sort.
That sounds like a lot of factors to keep up with. It's like a buggy Windows 95 with a hundred thousand patches needed and required to make it even relatively stable. Wouldn't it be just easier to you know...think that gravity isn't entirely dependent on power level in the exact way that you're thinking?
Well, that's all under the assumption that easier is really a concern of mine. I don't look for the easy way out of things, I look for what I believe makes sense to me, so something being easier really doesn't matter to me. If does to you, great, go ahead and take that point of view, but just note that because it's easier, does not make it what everyone would adhere to.

Edit:
So it takes Goku 39 days to "get used to the gravity" but it takes him six days to get used to x100? I'm fairely sure it has nothing to do with "getting used to it" so much has it does the battle power of the person.

Bubbles is shown to be Kaio's pet in the "Heavenly Realm", by all means show me how that would not make Bubbles supernatural. He's not dead, so he obviously wasn't from the living world, unless you wanna say Kaio picked him up from a random planet; which causes plot holes in itself. If a human has a battle power of 5 on average, then a little monkey like Bubbles would have even less if he was from the living realm, meaning that he'd instantly be killed by the gravity of Kaio's planet. He's intelligent, being able to understand what Kaio says, which would clearly call for training in that context, unless he's a supernatural monkey and just happens to be naturally intelligent. He also doesn't speak, which like many monkeys, is completely normal. There's plenty of intelligent primate that're able to understand us all to a great level, but Bubbles understands it as if he were human. It's the equivalent to knowing English but being mute or only being able to utter weird noises.

We also don't know if Bubbles is strong, but we know he's fast. It's entirely possible for Bubbles to be stronger than Goku, in fact if you wanna bet technical, he could have easily defeated Goku upon his arrival on the planet. It's considerable that Bubbles knows nothing about chi and therefore can't do anything, but run really fast and or attack with a strength that's in proportion to that speed.

Goku by simply walking around, gets stronger. Look back to when Roshi put a turtle shell on his back, it's the same thing as increasing the gravity, just not as efficient. Goku got stronger, by a long shot from that training.
Goku arriving at Kaio's - 416
-random but plausible gains-
Goku after 10 days - 789
Goku after 20 days - 1,234
Goku after 30 days - 1,678
Goku after 39 days - 1,956-2,123.5

-random but plausible gains-
Bubbles initially on Kaio's planet - 200
After a month - 1,340
After a year - 1,500-2,000

I'd say since all Bubbles really did was walk, run and do aerobic exercises on the planet that once he overcame the gravity, his gains became minuscule and or static, since logically he's used to it. Yamcha is at a battle power of 1,480, he's stated to have struggled to catch Bubbles. Notice how he's able to stand and walk normally, he's just not able to run or exercise like he would on Earth. If Goku at 416 could barley walk, and Yamcha at 1,480, both having never gravity trained before, what does that say? It clearly has to do with battle power, especially since Piccolo at 3,500 and Tenshinhan at 1,830 are shown no signs of struggling. We know they all caught Bubbles between the 18th and 24th, as opposed to Goku's 39 days. This further dictates that the higher the battle power, the easier one can move under gravity until not being affected by it at all.

You could also say that Bubbles is just resilient to the gravity, it really doesn't make a difference by which you go by.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Kaboom » Sun Feb 26, 2012 8:27 pm

We're getting a little too far and vehemently off-topic here, I think.

Can we just agree on "power and gravity tolerance don't always go hand-in-hand" and leave it at that?
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Mystic Gohan » Sun Feb 26, 2012 8:29 pm

Super 17 gets stomped. Cell isn't an idiot like goku and would figure out that he is absorbing his ki. He will just pound him till he get weak and then finish him off.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Perfect » Sun Feb 26, 2012 8:30 pm

If you'd like, then sure I guess.

How about:

SSJ2 Goku vs. Cell (equal battle power)?
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Saiga » Sun Feb 26, 2012 9:14 pm

I'd say Goku wins. Cell was slightly stronger than him while holding back and their fight was mostly even.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by dprez » Sun Feb 26, 2012 9:15 pm

Cell can regenerate. Goku knows this and also has all his epic techniques. Cell, after his zenkai, also has the majority of Goku's techniques.

I think Cell wins because he can regenerate. He could also make cell juniors if he has to for added support. They didn't seam to lower his power any when he made them during the Cell Games, so if he has a free opportunity they could help him in some way. One of the greatest fight ever for sure, but Cell has that super nifty Namekian ability that Goku doesn't have. Besides, we saw them fight at about equal power before, and Goku lost that one. This one is a bit different of course, but Cell imo would most likely come out alive simply because he can regenerate, and as long as Goku only has enough power to equal Cell (Similar to the power needed to beat Boo), I don't think he could completely destroy every microscopic piece of Cell's body. Goku definitely has a chance if he can ware Cell out through multiple regenerations, but Cell has the upper hand I think.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Dorexx » Sun Feb 26, 2012 9:52 pm

Paikuhan vs Legic

How'd the fight go and who do you believe would win? Both of them being the same as when they first fought Goku.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by dprez » Sun Feb 26, 2012 9:54 pm

Dorexx wrote:Paikuhan vs Legic

How'd the fight go and who do you believe would win? Both of them being the same as when they first fought Goku.
Who's Legic?


Ok a GT character. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqbGP2Tg-NE

I would think since GT Goku is so ridiculously haxed, Paikuhan stands no chance.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Kaboom » Sun Feb 26, 2012 9:58 pm

Normal Logic: As cool as he may be, Redgic is just a particularly powerful space-guy. He's not going to be anywhere near as strong as someone who's been training under a god for likely centuries.

GT Logic: Redgic was unbelievably powerful enough to force the already nigh-omnipotent force that is base GT kid Goku to transform up to Super Saiyan. He could vaporize Paikuhan, someone who is "only" about as strong as your average Super Saiyan 2, with a flick of his finger.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Pantalones » Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:15 am

Depends on how strong you think GT Goku is, I guess. Nothing really indicates that base Goku is already super obnoxiously strong at this point in the story (he still needs SSj to really fight Rilldo, whose full power was compared to Majin Buu)... maybe he gets absurdly strong later, with GT's nonsensical power comparisons it's hard to tell. But anyway... if he needs Super Saiyan to fight a Buu-level enemy (and doesn't even win that fight), Base Goku should still be a little less than 50x weaker than whichever form of Majin Buu they're talking about when they compare Rilldo to him... a huge step up from his previous base power, sure, but definitely not so absurdly strong that he's already stronger in base than he was in SSj2 before.

...then again, maybe everyone using "Super Saiyan" in GT is actually using SSj2 (at least Goku could be--he does have lightning for a few seconds after transforming during the fight with Ledgic, after all.) Which would mean that Ledgic really would be absurdly, ridiculously strong (he knew about Super Saiyan and compared Goku holding back that form to the way he was holding back against base Goku, then was strong enough that he didn't get instantly knocked out by SSj-maybe-SSj2 Goku's hits and survived a direct hit from a Kamehameha and his own pushed-back blast without really being visibly damaged or even losing consciousness!) and easily flatten Paikuhan.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by jackjack » Mon Feb 27, 2012 3:27 am

Perfect wrote:Notice that Gohan saying he feels heavy and walking perfectly fine is completely different than Goku, Yamcha and Trunks all struggling. He moves perfectly fine with no trouble whatsoever.
Gohan hasn't done much of anything for you to conclude he can move perfectly fine. Not when his body is heavy, no, wouldn't be logical at all to think he can. And like I said before, if a 8k Goku, who doesn't feel heavy under 10g while Gohan does, still struggles with 20g, then I'm sure Gohan would struggle all the same if gravity doubled.

Goku walks just fine as well and can even do superhuman jumps while still weighted. Yamcha merely talks about being unable to run easily and attributes that to the same "heavy body." Trunks could've been in there for a while, so by the time we see him he's probably already exhausted trying to run around.

In any case, the fact does remain that Gohan still feels heavy, which would eventually tire him out should he try to do any kind of labor. That's why Goku immediately states he doesn't feel tired anymore after overcoming 100g, because, unlike the Gohan that hasn't overcome 10g, his body weight isn't weighing down on him and making him feel heavy like it was before.
Perfect wrote: Well of course he doesn't have a high enough battle power, that's the point. Vegeta during the Cell arc quite clearly did, thus pegging him above Trunks.
Yet, Gohan isn't strong enough to overcome a mere 10g, thus pegging him below Raditz.

Another thing is that all this has nothing to do with post-training Trunks, who's noted to be a much improved version. I can pretty much dismiss your entire argument based on this reason alone. That, and the fact that Vegeta back then was never shown/stated to have overcome 300g in base to begin with. (Oh, and before you try to mention the anime again, it has Gohan being brought down to his knees and then struggling to get back on his feet :wink: )
lash wrote: Since you assume 2,000-3,000 is required to not feel 10x gravity at all...
He can't possibly believe that, right? Otherwise he would be faced with the question of why Gohan still feels it...

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Perfect » Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:12 am

Gohan hasn't done much of anything for you to conclude he can move perfectly fine. Not when his body is heavy, no, wouldn't be logical at all to think he can. And like I said before, if a 8k Goku, who doesn't feel heavy under 10g while Gohan does, still struggles with 20g, then I'm sure Gohan would struggle all the same if gravity doubled.

Goku walks just fine as well and can even do superhuman jumps while still weighted. Yamcha merely talks about being unable to run easily and attributes that to the same "heavy body." Trunks could've been in there for a while, so by the time we see him he's probably already exhausted trying to run around.

In any case, the fact does remain that Gohan still feels heavy, which would eventually tire him out should he try to do any kind of labor. That's why Goku immediately states he doesn't feel tired anymore after overcoming 100g, because, unlike the Gohan that hasn't overcome 10g, his body weight isn't weighing down on him and making him feel heavy like it was before.
Apparently you confuse commenting on an environmental change with actually being affected by something. Gohan is walking around, panel to panel, showing absolutely no sign(s) of struggling or being any different. Here's where your logic breaks in half, Gohan isn't at 8k, nor is he struggling in x10. There's absolutely no basis for him to struggle in x20.

There's no basis for what you're saying, you're assuming that Trunks would have to have been running to be struggling, yet there's not a single shred of evidence towards that.
Yet, Gohan isn't strong enough to overcome a mere 10g, thus pegging him below Raditz.

Another thing is that all this has nothing to do with post-training Trunks, who's noted to be a much improved version. I can pretty much dismiss your entire argument based on this reason alone. That, and the fact that Vegeta back then was never shown/stated to have overcome 300g in base to begin with. (Oh, and before you try to mention the anime again, it has Gohan being brought down to his knees and then struggling to get back on his feet )
Again, commenting on an a mere environmental change, mainly affected by the thin air and emptiness equates to not overcoming x10 gravity? Especially when he shows not a single sign of struggling? And no, no you can't, because that level can easily be less than half of x150. Vegeta would have to train near x300, because x100 wouldn't be enough to become a Super Saiyan, it'd have to be a higher level that'd come as a requirement as a need, not a want. Oh and yes I am bringing up the anime here, because you are. Gohan falls to his knees because apparently the anime dictates that all the effects of the room happen via the first step. It's perfectly natural for Gohan to be briefly taken aback by all the elements, seeing that he was already in the room and wasn't expecting it. He gets up just fine afterwards, and all the filler segments after show him being able to maneuver perfectly fine. Also note that he's panting and sweating in that segment, which shows it's a combination of all those attributes. This notion is furthered by the fact the air at the Lookout is nearly as thin as in the room.
He can't possibly believe that, right? Otherwise he would be faced with the question of why Gohan still feels it...
Feeling /=/ affected by it. I can feel less than one pound of a material on my body, is that going to hinder my movements? No, not at all.

Please also note that Nappa stated he felt lighter under Earth's weak gravity. This means he could tell the difference between lighter and heavier gravity, while clearly having mastered the heavier gravity. This applies to Gohan perfectly, it's the same as wearing light clothes, like a tank top and boxers.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:52 am

Dorexx wrote:Paikuhan vs Legic
Redgic should be near Boo's level, but a little weaker. Paikuhan is above Super Perfect Cell, but not stronger than SSJ2 Gohan. Redgic wins.
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Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by dario03 » Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:24 am

Personally I don't think how much gravity you can take is only based on power level. I think Goku being born in 10x gravity but yet struggling with it as a much more powerful adult is the best example why. But that and other examples have already been mentioned but we also have Pui pui think that being moved to 10x gravity would give him a advantage over Vegeta even though Vegeta had just pummeled him easily in regular Earth gravity. So even though Vegeta was stronger than Pui Pui, Pui Pui thought that being in high gravity would affect Vegeta more than him.

Pui Pui: "This is the end of the line for you! This place has 10x Earths grav. I was raised on this planet."
Vegeta: "So? A mere 10 times gravities is nothing."
Pui Pui: "You're Bluffing!"
Vegeta: "You'll see if I am"

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Perfect » Mon Feb 27, 2012 10:21 am

Fair enough, granted those statements can be taken in many different directions. I believe there can be a ton of attributing factors when it comes to gravity, but the most part I'd like to believe it's battle power oriented.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Fox666 » Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:03 am

Indeed there is some correlation with power, however that's different of it being completely depending on power.

The fight with Pui-pui should be enough to show that, unless you believe Pui-pui was expecting Vegeta's battle power to be lower than 1,500.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by jackjack » Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:34 pm

Perfect wrote:Feeling /=/ affected by it. I can feel less than one pound of a material on my body, is that going to hinder my movements? No, not at all.
If it's making him feel heavy, he's certainly being affected by it.

lol 1 pound? Try carrying some heavy ass object way, way more than 1 pound, it sure as hell is going to hinder your movements and tire you out quickly.
Perfect wrote: Please also note that Nappa stated he felt lighter under Earth's weak gravity. This means he could tell the difference between lighter and heavier gravity, while clearly having mastered the heavier gravity.
Being able to tell the difference hardly affects my point, which apparently you're still failing to see, man.

I'll repeat, hopefully for the last time; Gohan didn't just notice difference, he talked about his body feeling "heavy," which he wouldn't say if he overcame 10g.
Perfect wrote:Gohan is walking around, panel to panel, showing absolutely no sign(s) of struggling or being any different.
Like I mentioned in my previous post, Goku walks around just fine as well, only struggles when he tries to run; the same goes for Yamcha, who only states running is hard for him. So Gohan walking around doesn't mean he wouldn't struggle doing other stuff, like running.
Perfect wrote:There's no basis for what you're saying, you're assuming that Trunks would have to have been running to be struggling, yet there's not a single shred of evidence towards that.
He looks like he's trying to run to me (looks exactly like Goku when chasing Bubbles). And the first thing he does after going Super Saiyan is running, immediately followed by a comment that this is now easy for him as though he's just accomplished what he wasn't able to do earlier, which would be to run easily.
Perfect wrote:And no, no you can't, because that level can easily be less than half of x150.
Sure I can, considering pre-training Trunks << post-training Trunks (stated) and everything you've said conerns the former. (I wasn't even talking about gravity level lol.)
Last edited by jackjack on Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Kaboom » Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:52 pm

There is no consistent relationship between power level and gravity tolerance. I've already asked once for the off-topic and pointless debate about it to be dropped. Please do so.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by jackjack » Mon Feb 27, 2012 2:10 pm

Aight, peace.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Perfect » Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:35 pm

I'm tempted to reply, but I'll abide by the law set forth by Kaboom, so...

How about Goku: 180,000 (Kaio-ken) versus Dore: 185,000?
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