Cell and Super Saiyan

[Fox666]

In the second form Cell facial structure changed, it is more bulked up (with much bigger neck and shoulders), his aura is completely different and overall he becomes a giant. So it seems to me that it was intended to be different.

It would also be virtually impossible for Cell to throw up No.18 in the form he showed to Trunks. And that may be the reason why Toriyama came up with that another form.

[lash]

Note that Cell size doesn't change when he uses the first form against Trunks, while he becomes a giant during his fight with Gohan.

Maybe Cell has become Broli's Legendary Super Saiyan state

Yeah, like I thought, they do look different. But is Toriyama ever really consistent with auras (I think there have been multiple threads showing how he isn't, and that it could be more about him showing the level of power output certain characters are using, which is why even Piccolo displays a SS aura after merging with God)? As I said, I wonder if Toriyama did this intentionally, or he just forgot how he drew it beforehand.

The auras in this case would be too drastic a change to be overlooked.
While I do think Toriyama intended them to generally be the same form, I honestly think Toriyama just didn't care(or was too lazy to look back exactly how he drew Cell there, or maybe even forgot he ever drew Cell in a grade state). It's more than likely he made Cell look extra stressed and deformed to better transition how Gohan kicks Cell so hard his body can no longer take the punishment and spits 18 out.

[FindKenshi]

I think Toriyama is pretty consistent with the auras, personally. There are a few exceptions, of course, but for the most part, SSj Goku's aura always looks the same, USSj Goku, Vegeta, and Trunks have the same aura, FPSSj always looks the same, SSj2 always looks the same etc. The cases where they don't are just exceptions to the rule.

[Fox666]

Note that Cell size doesn't change when he uses the first form against Trunks, while he becomes a giant during his fight with Gohan.

Maybe Cell has become Broli's Legendary Super Saiyan state

At least in appearance it is comparable to Broli unique transformation.

[Piccolo Daimao]

In the second form Cell facial structure changed, it is more bulked up (with much bigger neck and shoulders), his aura is completely different and overall he becomes a giant. So it seems to me that it was intended to be different.

It would also be virtually impossible for Cell to throw up No.18 in the form he showed to Trunks. And that may be the reason why Toriyama came up with that another form.

Ah, OK, I understand now. I think I'll subscribe to the theory that Cell bulked up into a "Grade 4"-equivalent of sorts.

And what do you mean? Cell threw up #18 because Gohan had damaged him that much.

Yeah, like I thought, they do look different. But is Toriyama ever really consistent with auras (I think there have been multiple threads showing how he isn't, and that it could be more about him showing the level of power output certain characters are using, which is why even Piccolo displays a SS aura after merging with God)? As I said, I wonder if Toriyama did this intentionally, or he just forgot how he drew it beforehand.

The auras in this case would be too drastic a change to be overlooked.
While I do think Toriyama intended them to generally be the same form, I honestly think Toriyama just didn't care(or was too lazy to look back exactly how he drew Cell there, or maybe even forgot he ever drew Cell in a grade state). It's more than likely he made Cell look extra stressed and deformed to better transition how Gohan kicks Cell so hard his body can no longer take the punishment and spits 18 out.

Yeah, that makes sense.

[Son_Gohan]

But is Toriyama ever really consistent with auras (I think there have been multiple threads showing how he isn't, and that it could be more about him showing the level of power output certain characters are using, which is why even Piccolo displays a SS aura after merging with God)?

When Trunks returned to the future and encounters Imperfect Cell, they both share the same aura even with the differences in their powers being very apparent.

[Piccolo Daimao]

I think Toriyama is pretty consistent with the auras, personally. There are a few exceptions, of course, but for the most part, SSj Goku's aura always looks the same, USSj Goku, Vegeta, and Trunks have the same aura, FPSSj always looks the same, SSj2 always looks the same etc. The cases where they don't are just exceptions to the rule.

Or there are no rules. There are more "exceptions" than you think.

But is Toriyama ever really consistent with auras (I think there have been multiple threads showing how he isn't, and that it could be more about him showing the level of power output certain characters are using, which is why even Piccolo displays a SS aura after merging with God)?

When Trunks returned to the future and encounters Imperfect Cell, they both share the same aura even with the differences in their powers being very apparent.

I'm talking about various examples, which have been pointed out in multiple threads. Like this one.

[Son_Gohan]

I'm talking about various examples, which have been pointed out in multiple threads. Like this one.

Throughout the series the Super Saiyan aura was not something that was drawn constant since its introduction. Comparing Goku's first time on Namek progressing to Majin Buu era, a lot of details change along the way if you really pay attention to it.

[Piccolo Daimao]

I'm talking about various examples, which have been pointed out in multiple threads. Like this one.

Throughout the series the Super Saiyan aura was not something that was drawn constant since its introduction. Comparing Goku's first time on Namek progressing to Majin Buu era, a lot of details change along the way if you really pay attention to it.

Exactly, so it's inconsistent and/or an artistic style's evolution.

[asbereth]

I think it was only during Cell saga that they were making a big deal about the different forms of Super Saiyan, each of which comes with different aura. In Buu saga, every Super Saiyan was just that, a (regular) Super Saiyan (though their powers were worlds above SSJ Goku at Namek).

About aura's consistency, I'd say that Cell saga was the only problematic one. In Buu saga, they were actually drawn pretty consistently. Check Vegeta's, Goku's, and Gohan's SSJ auras in Buu saga, and they all looked exactly the same. And they looked much closer to SSJ Goku's aura at Namek than Trunks' aura when he killed Cell and the cyborgs in the future. Goku was also depicted with similar aura when he was fighting Cell (with the one when he was fighting Freeza), and even Vegeta and Trunks when they were fighting Cell Juniors. Once again, it seems to me that all forms preceding super Saiyan 2 were all lumped together into a single category: regular super Saiyan, and when the characters referred to levels above Super Saiyan, they usually meant SSJ2/3 rather than SSJG2/3 or FPSSJ.

I don't believe that full-powered or mastered SSJ is a different form than a regular SSJ. It is exactly as Goku pointed out to Gohan that the regular super Saiyan form is best for fighting, so training in that state would be most beneficial (which would allow you to access more power without having to transform into a new state).

It also seems to me that how the auras look like do not necessarily determine how strong a character is. Semi-perfect Cell when he was fighting Vegeta, and even Perfect Cell when he was fighting Goku, was depicted with a regular SSJ aura, whereas imperfect Cell of the future had the so-called FPSSJ aura. I think we can safely say that 2nd-form and perfect Cell were easily more powerful than his imperfect form counterpart from the future, despite the latter having more 'powerful' looking aura.

[Bussani]

About aura's consistency, I'd say that Cell saga was the only problematic one. In Buu saga, they were actually drawn pretty consistently. Check Vegeta's, Goku's, and Gohan's SSJ auras in Buu saga, and they all looked exactly the same. And they looked much closer to SSJ Goku's aura at Namek than Trunks' aura when he killed Cell and the cyborgs in the future. Goku was also depicted with similar aura when he was fighting Cell (with the one when he was fighting Freeza), and even Vegeta and Trunks when they were fighting Cell Juniors. Once again, it seems to me that all forms preceding super Saiyan 2 were all lumped together into a single category: regular super Saiyan, and when the characters referred to levels above Super Saiyan, they usually meant SSJ2/3 rather than SSJG2/3 or FPSSJ.

Really? I think Goku's aura in the Cell Game and beyond looks subtly different from the aura he had before. The so-called "Full Power" aura does fluctuate, but I think it's supposed to rather than it being an inconsistency. The auras from where Trunks fights the androids and Cell in the future, on the other hand, seem less consistent with everything else to me.

Edit: Compare these auras from before and after the Cell Game to see what I mean.

Before:



After:



That said, there's a panel here and there (well, one that I've spotted) in the Buu saga where the auras more closely match the old style ones. Vegeta and Trunks standing in the gravity chamber talking was the only one I noticed at a glance.

[Son_Gohan]

From what I've observed, the original aura takes more of a specialized role in the later part of the story, as when they are augmenting their energy:

[asbereth]

Really? I think Goku's aura in the Cell Game and beyond looks subtly different from the aura he had before. The so-called "Full Power" aura does fluctuate, but I think it's supposed to rather than it being an inconsistency. The auras from where Trunks fights the androids and Cell in the future, on the other hand, seem less consistent with everything else to me.

I agree. As I mentioned, they only looked similar, but not exactly the same (well, they actually look the same to me, only the extend of the aura from their body that is different). And certainly, based on those pictures you posted, Goku's auras look closer to his aura when he was fighting Freeza on Namek than Trunks' aura when he fought Cell and the cyborgs in the futures.

From what I've observed, the original aura takes more of a specialized role in the later part of the story, as when they are augmenting their energy

Just curious, did you notice any other instances where this was true? Arguably though, Goku's aura in that picture was just his Super Saiyan aura.

[Bussani]

I agree. As I mentioned, they only looked similar, but not exactly the same (well, they actually look the same to me, only the extend of the aura from their body that is different).

Ah, okay.

And certainly, based on those pictures you posted, Goku's auras look closer to his aura when he was fighting Freeza on Namek than Trunks' aura when he fought Cell and the cyborgs in the futures.

Well, I was specifically looking for parts where the later type of aura was at its calmest. Like I said, it fluctuates, so there are times (mostly when initially transforming or powering up for an attack) where the aura looks more like Trunks' when he's back in the future.



There are even times in the future where Trunks' aura looks more like those calm ones I posted before. Overall, though, it's the fact that Cell has the same aura that doesn't seem right to me. Imperfect Cell in the past always had the old aura, and I don't see why the one in the future should be any different. Guess Toriyama just forgot.

[Saiga]

Overall, though, it's the fact that Cell has the same aura that doesn't seem right to me. Imperfect Cell in the past always had the old aura, and I don't see why the one in the future should be any different. Guess Toriyama just forgot.

Maybe Future Cell was at "full power" in his Imperfect Form and lost a lot more power than we thought when he had to regress to time travel?

[dbgtFO]

Maybe Future Cell was at "full power" in his Imperfect Form and lost a lot more power than we thought when he had to regress to time travel?

I don't recall it being mentioned that he lost power in the first place. Anyone has a quote or anything?

[hleV]

It's actually pretty possible that Cell was more powerful before travelling to the past, as he had completely grew to be able to absorb #17 & #18 without much problems. After going to the past, however, he had to drain people's energy to become strong enough again. Once he had become strong enough, he went after #17 & #18. So to explain future Cell's advanced aura, he likely was stronger than 1st form Cell from the main timeline.

[Bussani]

I don't recall it being mentioned that he lost power in the first place. Anyone has a quote or anything?

I thought it was, but I can't see a quote about it anywhere now, so maybe I made it up. He had to grow back to full size from an egg, though, so I suppose it's a possible explanation. I just figured Cell when he attacked #17 and Piccolo should have been as strong as he was when he was searching for them in the future, but there's technically no proof he wasn't even stronger in the future.

[dbgtFO]

It's actually pretty possible that Cell was more powerful before travelling to the past, as he had completely grew to be able to absorb #17 & #18 without much problems. After going to the past, however, he had to drain people's energy to become strong enough again. Once he had become strong enough, he went after #17 & #18. So to explain future Cell's advanced aura, he likely was stronger than 1st form Cell from the main timeline.

I thought it was, but I can't see a quote about it anywhere now, so maybe I made it up. He had to grow back to full size from an egg, though, so I suppose it's a possible explanation. I just figured Cell when he attacked #17 and Piccolo should have been as strong as he was when he was searching for them in the future, but there's technically no proof he wasn't even stronger in the future.

Usually the claim only comes up, when people, who don't think the androids of Trunks' timeline were weaker than the ones from the main timeline, wants to make sense out of Cell implying himself stronger than the future ones, but weaker than the present ones.

I'm firmly on the future androids < present androids side, so I wanted to see, if the claim that Cell lost power was actually supported by a quote somewhere, as Cell being weaker than the present androids, but stronger than the future ones fits nicely with future androids < present androids.

[hleV]

I don't have problem with present artificial humans being stronger than their future selves either. I just find it easily possible that Cell, before travelling to the past, was fairly stronger than when he attacked artificial humans in the main timeline.

Basically it could've been like this:

1. Gero's computer made Cell pretty damn strong.
2. Cell, after not finding artificial humans in the future, returned to his weak form and travelled to the present.
3. Cell, who was provided with info regarding artificial humans' strength (future's), attacked the artificial humans once more than strong enough (I think he stated it himself, that he became too strong), but not necessary as strong as he was before travelling in time.