DragonBall Opposing Views: Cell's power after he returned

[FindKenshi]

When it comes to In-Universe discussion of Dragon Ball, several particular subjects are somewhat vague and open to interpretation. Some of these subjects, especially "strength debates" seem to have a sharp split between the fans. Discussion of these often quickly degrade into an argument, people repeating themselves like broken records, refusal to even entertain the idea of another's opinion, and in some cases name-calling, and other personal attacks. My goal with DragonBall: Opposing Views is to lay all the facts out on the table, explain two differing interpretations of said scenes, and mediate a rational, cool-headed discussion on the material. This is something I'm doing because I think that "strength debates" are enjoyable, and I want to help the rest of the community understand them better, and I also want to help and mediate those who may engage in said discussions.

With that, I'm choosing one such somewhat-controversial topic for discussion this time around: Cell's strength after his return from his self destruction, and the debate surrounding whether he was much more powerful than Gohan, roughly equal to him, or even possibly much weaker than him--a debate I've seen several times in the past.

First, let's take an objective view at the facts in this case. I will be summarizing the events of Cell's final moments of life, and providing scans of scenes which are relevant and often sited as evidence in this discussion.

Cell teleports back to the battle field, and in the chaos that ensues, he shoots Trunks through the abdomen with a beam. The characters express both horror and confusion in regards to Cell's survival and abrupt return. Cell admits that he was surprised, too, and explains what happened.

Fig. 1

Cell explains that after he was finished regenerating, he was now complete without #18, and he had powered-up "like Son Gohan." This is in reference to the sparking bolts of lightning in his aura, similar to Gohan's aura. He surmises that recovering from near-death triggered the power-up, much like the one Saiyans recieve.

Fig. 2

Cell goes on to explain that his return was due to his ability to teleport like Goku could. He now calls himself "better than ever."

Fig. 3

While the other characters are in utter shock at this turn of events, Gohan smiles. Cell asks the boy why he's smiling, wondering if maybe he's gone insane. Gohan explains that he's happy Cell's back... mainly so he can kill him. Cell expresses skepticism that Gohan can pull that off.

At this point Vegeta suddenly interrupts things. He screams in rage at his future son's death, and hurls himself at Cell, unleashing a savage barrage of energy attacks. Cell is unharmed, however, and flies out of the smoke cloud, striking Vegeta and smashing him into the ground. As Vegeta lies sprawled out, Cell fires off an attack meant to kill the downed Saiyan.

Fig. 4

Gohan rushes to Vegeta's aid, and is hit by Cell's attack. This results in a huge explosion.

After the smoke clears, and the dust settles, Gohan rises to his feet. There's one small problem, though. His arm looks broken. It's hanging limp at his side, with blood just pouring down it.

Fig. 5

As Cell taunts the young warrior, and Gohan's allies lament about this turn of events (and their lack of senzu beans), Gohan himself acknowledges Cell's increase in strength.

At this point, Cell declares that he'll end the game, and begins firing up a Kamehameha. Vegeta apologies to Gohan, Piccolo curses their helplessness, and Gohan gives up. He tells Cell that he knows he can't resist anymore, and demands that he just get it over with. Cell sneers, complaining about a boring ending, and prepares to fire.

At this point Goku chimes in from beyond the grave, courtesy of Kaio-sama, speaking to Gohan and telling him not to give up.

Fig. 6

Goku assures his son that he can still beat Cell. Gohan argues, explaining that he can only use one arm, and that he lost half of his power.

Goku doesn't let up, continuing to insist that Gohan can win now. Gohan finally decides to give it his best, apologizing to his dad for getting him killed, and promising to do his best. At this point Gohan begins powering up his own Kamehameha with one arm, an iconic scene in Dragon Ball if ever there was one.

Fig. 7

As Gohan and Cell both prepare to fire, Piccolo expresses his concern for Gohan's chances...

They fire, and an epic beam-struggle ensues.

Fig. 8

Cells kamehameha begins steadily pushing Gohan's back. Piccolo provides commentary.

Fig. 9

Cell declares victory at this point, while Goku continues to encourage his son from beyond the grave. Goku tells Gohan that he's not yet using his full power.

Fig. 10

Gohan again argues with his father, claiming he is doing his best. Goku continues to insist that he's holding back. Feeling victory is only moments away, Cell bids Gohan farewell. Suddenly, Cell gets hit by an attack from off to the side!

Fig. 11

It is Vegeta! As Cell stares at Vegeta, Goku screams that this is Gohan's chance. Gohan looks stunned, and then cuts loose, leaping up as he pushes the Kamehameha with all of his might.

Fig. 12

Cell, who's face still seems to be turned away from Gohan, quickly notices the oncoming Kamehameha. His facial expression can be described as one of horror, or complete shock, as he begins turning his gaze back towards Gohan.

Fig 13

The rest, as they say, is history!

THE OPPOSING VIEWS

CELL WAS MUCH STRONGER THAN GOHAN. GOHAN'S VICTORY WAS PURE LUCK.

• Cell says he's powered up "like Gohan did."(Fig. 1) If Cell was stronger than Gohan when they were both in the Super Saiyan tier, then Cell should be stronger than Gohan when he joins the Super Saiyan 2 tier.
• Cell had already been demolished by Super Saiyan 2 Gohan, and he does not at all appear to be in denial of these events. Rather, he acknowledges Gohan's strength, but still insisits that with his new power-up he's capable of beating Gohan (Fig. 3)
• The attack that Cell flung at Vegeta is described as being a "quick, uncharged blast." The blast cripples Gohan, breaking his arm, and then Gohan acknowledges that Cell's increase in power is to blame for the damage he's suffered. (Fig. 5)
  • Some argue that Gohan being harmed by an "uncharged" attack showcases Cell's superiority
• During the beam-struggle, Goku claims Gohan is holding back, but Gohan insists he is giving it everything he's got (Fig. 10)
  • The argument is that Gohan knows how much effort he's using better than Goku does
• Furthermore, Cell appears to just be toying with Gohan during the beam-struggle, and by shouting "Good bye!" (Fig. 10) it implies that he has yet to go all out himself, and is about to do so in order to nuke Gohan.
• (Fig. 10) Vegeta's intervention comes at a crucial moment, interrupting Cell right before he finishes Gohan off. Cell turns his attention completely away from Gohan (Fig. 11)
  • Goku yelling "NOW!" while Cell's attention is turned away shows that even Goku knew this was Gohan's only chance
• Cell is taken completely off-guard by Gohan's sudden surge, as shown by his surprise (Fig. 12)
• Even Piccolo and the others show surprise after Gohan won "He... did it?"

Closing arguments: Cell knew how powerful Gohan was, and still believed he could win. Cell may be arrogant, but he's no fool. Gohan took heavy damage from an uncharged blast from Cell, and admitted that Cell had become far more powerful than he thought. During the beam-struggle Goku continues to claim Gohan is holding back, but Gohan insists that he isn't. Cell toys with his prey, and is just about to finish Gohan off, when Vegeta distracts him. Gohan exploits Cell's distraction and takes him off guard, which is the only reason he won.

GOHAN WAS MUCH STRONGER THAN CELL. HE JUST NEEDED A LITTLE PUSH TO BELIEVE IN HIMSELF

• Gohan is just as confident that he can win as Cell is at first (Fig. 3)
• When Gohan took Cell's attack, he was utterly focused on reaching Vegeta. He misjudged the blast's speed, and is surprised when it hits him. (Fig. 4)
  • The argument is that Gohan was off-guard, his defenses lowered, and all of his ki focused on speed, which is the only reason the attack harmed him.
• Furthermore, Gohan hadn't believed Cell was much stronger at all (Fig. 5) which is another reason he didn't bother focusing his power on defending against Cell's attack.
• Gohan has lost his confidence and didn't even want to try. Goku explained to him that he could still win. Goku is observing the events from the After Life, and knows that Gohan is still stronger than Cell.
• (Fig. 6) Gohan claims that he's lost half of his ki, but he's still able to resist Cell's Kamehameha
• Gohan has lost his self confidence. Even though he thinks he's using his full power, Goku knows better, explaining that Gohan is holding back out of fear of damaging the Earth (Fig. 10)
  • Goku is not just encouraging Gohan to "hang in there", he's actually saying Gohan is holding back. Gohan is only using a portion of his power at this point.
• Finally, when Cell turned away, Gohan pushes the rest of his power into the attack. Cell is utterly obliterated (Fig. 13)
  • Cell is reduced to nothing, as Gohan's kamehameha had the strength to negate his regeneration. This is based on Gohan's power--the Kamehameha was just that strong. Cell was no match once Gohan went all out

Closing arguments: Cell's initial confidence is due to his arrogant nature. Cell has too much pride to admit defeat, and that's why he returned and bragged that he could beat Gohan now. When he tried to kill Vegeta, Gohan was in a panic, focusing every ounce of his power toward reaching Vegeta in time. For this reason the blast took him by surprise, with his defenses lowered. That's the only reason it damaged him so much. He claimed he had lost half his power, but he really didn't. He just had poor self-esteem, having been through the trauma of his father dying, and his arm being injured at this crucial moment. Goku continued to insist that Gohan was subconsiously holding back, and when Gohan finally does cut loose, his power utterly overwhelms Cell and erases him. Although Vegeta distracting Cell was a help, it wasn't necessary, as Goku had stated he knew Gohan could still win all along.

GOHAN AND CELL WERE ABOUT EQUAL IN STRENGTH

• Cell has powered up "like Gohan has" (Fig. 1) This is shown by him having the same sparking aura that Gohan does. Their powers are now very similar. Gohan was way beyond Cell when he first became Super Saiyan 2, and Cell's boost should have put them on even grounds.
• Gohan didn't realize Cell would become as strong as him (Fig. 5). That's why he thought he would beat Cell's attack to Vegeta. He aknowledges that Cell has improved more than he thought.
• Gohan originally gives up because he's lost the use of his arm. He doesn't think he can overcome Cell, and it takes Goku to convince him that he can.
• Gohan resists cell's Kamehameha, preventing it from instantly overwhelming him. But due to his injury, Cell has the edge. (Fig. 8)
  • If Cell were really much stronger than Gohan, then he'd have just blasted through Gohan's Kamehameha with his own, especially if Gohan were wounded. The fact that Gohan is still able to hold out even with this wound suggests that at their respective peaks, their powers should be very close to eachother.
• Yes, Gohan releases the rest of his energy while Cell is distracted, but he still had the power to completly wipe Cell out. If Cell were that much stronger than Gohan, the Kamehameha shouldn't completly erase him.

Closing Arguments: Cell and Gohan were about equal. Same sparking aura, same "Super Saiyan 2 power." Gohan underestimated Cell at first, causing him to get careless, and lose an arm, but the size of his ki was still on par with Cell. Just because Cell thought he could win at first, doesn't mean he has to be overwhelmingly stronger than Gohan. Remember, Cell is very arrogant. The fact of the matter is, Gohan hung in there even while he was wounded, but Cell had the edge, slowly pushing his Kamehameha back. This indicates the two were dead even at their peaks, but Gohan was in a lot of pain and had lost power from Cell's earlier attack, giving Cell a slight edge during the struggle. Cell clearly has the power to kill Gohan during the struggle, as Gohan had the power to kill Cell. If Gohan was a lot stronger than Cell, he'd not have taken much damage from Cell's attack, and the beam-struggle should have been a breeze. If Cell was much stronger than Gohan, the Kamehameha shouldn't have utterly erased him. The two had to be close in power.

---

Well, that's about everything. Now, I'm very curious as to what all of your opinions are on the matter. Do you have a decisive viewpoint that you've stood behind for a while? Were you not even familiar that this was a debate? What is your standing on these Opposing Views? I'm very interested to hear from you, DaizEX.

I hope this post will help organize your thoughts, maybe show some people things they may have overlooked, and show everyone how there are different ways to interprete certain scenes. Well, I hope everyone has as much fun reading this as I did typing it. Looking forward to hearing from you.

[Perfect]

SSJ2 is a multiplier of x2 SSJ, so x100 base form. If Gohan lost half his chi from Cell's attack, then that would mean he'd be as strong as his SSJ form during the beam struggle. I highly doubt Gohan was able to double his power and that Vegeta's surprise attack was for nothing. I'd say they're equal, if anything.

[FindKenshi]

SSJ2 is a multiplier of x2 SSJ, so x100 base form. If Gohan lost half his chi from Cell's attack, then that would mean he'd be as strong as his SSJ form during the beam struggle. I highly doubt Gohan was able to double his power and that Vegeta's surprise attack was for nothing. I'd say they're equal, if anything.

That's a really good point. Now that you've brought it up, I've realized that I have heard that argument before, but I totally forgot about it. And this is why I wanted to start this series of topics, because honestly different people remember different things, and it's impossible for me to remember every little argument that's ever been used in these debates. So not only am I hoping to show people things they may have missed, I'm also looking for examples like these, where people point out things that I overlooked too.

Well, the floor is open for discussion. There either won't be much discussion though because all of the material is covered, or this will turn into discussion on the subject matter at hand. If it's going to be the latter, I just ask that everyone keeps it civil and we show VegettoEX that we can have cool-headed rational Strength Debate discussion without it turning into an argument.

[Bussani]

I feel like I don't have many strong beliefs or convictions when it comes to this sort of thing. I like to look at things from different angles like you are here, and more often than not one interpretation seems as good as another to me. I suppose that's why people sometimes think I'm just playing devil's advocate, but I just don't see the point in picking one interpretation and sticking rigidly to it. Sometimes there will be one that I feel is closer to what the author intended, but even that can be pretty subjective. In this case...I think I kind of lean towards them being in the same sort of league, at least before Gohan receives his arm injury. It seemed like Cell wanted Gohan to put up some sort of fight at the end and may not have been giving his all so as to drag it out, like getting enjoyment out of watching someone who can't win flail about in desperation. If he really was half-assing it and got distracted by Vegeta at the right moment, I can see Gohan winning by catching him by surprise with his full power. And I guess I sort of like that, because it's an ending that doesn't boil down to nothing but raw power.

I can only think of one or two other things worth mentioning. In relation to Gohan's arm, Goku and Daimao were also pretty evenly matched--exactly the same, even, if you go by their Daizenshuu battle powers--and he crippled Goku's leg with an "uncharged" ki attack from his eyes. He then went on to break his other limbs by blowing rocks at them. I don't know if we can apply Daimao arc durability levels to Cell arc characters or not, but it probably is possible to cause this sort of injury to someone of the same level as you with a lucky shot. It's not unheard of, at least. I suppose Piccolo Jr. sending a mouth-beam straight through Goku's shoulder might be another example.

The final thing I can think of bringing up is that Goku managed to annihilate a damn good portion of Cell even though they were, at the time, about equal. Goku may have even be a bit weaker if we go by Vegeta's comment*. I've always wondered: if Goku's Kamehameha had been just a bit wider, might he have killed Cell? Just how close did Cell come to being done in there? I guess we can't know for sure.



*I can't seem to find the quote in the Strength Checker, but Kanzentai's manga guide does mention it, so it's probably not a Vizism:

"It pisses me off to admit it, but with just that special training, I couldn't surpass Kakarot. That bastard's a genius. But, Cell is one or two steps higher than the present Kakarot."

[Mystic Gohan]

I have cell stronger. He says he has powered up like gohan. If we take it that fp pc>mssj gohan and cell has powered up like mssj gohan to ssj2 gohan, then cell should be stronger imo.

[lash]

-Gohan lost over half his Ki.
Gohan: “B-but, the way I am now…I can only use one arm, and even my ki is already less than half…”
[ ]
Goku: “That’s alright, you can win! Believe in your own power! Show me one last time…The power we created together!”

-Along with that, he STILL wasn't using all his power...and was putting an admirable resistance to Cell's beam.

Goku: “Hang on! Hang on, Gohan! You ain’t putting out all your power yet! Make your power explode!”
Gohan: “I’m doing it at full force…! Any more than this is…”
Goku: “Somewhere in your mind you’re thinking of the damage to the Earth! Don’t worry about it! We’ll undo the damage with the dragonballs!”

Whether the second factor changes at the last moment, the first doesn't. Gohan completely erases Cell at less then half power.

That pretty much sells it for me. If we want to assume Cell was toying with Gohan in the struggle, you may get a conflict of statements. Cell does state he's done playing games and was going to finish the fight, and such was the reason for charging up the Kamehameha in the first place instead of just toying with Gohan in an actual brawl. I guess it can be up for interpretation I suppose. Now even if we somehow reason out his initial "no more playing around" statement and still think Cell wasn't giving it his all until his "Goodbye" remark towards the end of the beam struggle, the handicaps are still more in favor for Gohan in my opinion. And lets not forget Gohan was the one who won.
If we also want to assume Gohan gained more Ki to his power due to anger, or confidence(shouki, or whatever anyone else can think of) that's fine. But the quote still tends to stand in my opinion. Notice Goku doesn't say Gohan is incorrect in saying he has less than half power, but says it's still enough to defeat Cell.

Gohan at less than half power completely bulldozed Cell's Kamehameha, and utterly overpowered every single last one cell in Cell's supercharged body...killing him. Have that same Gohan at full health... and I really don't see any possible way Cell could somehow have a higher Ki in my opinion.

As for the 2x SSJ2 multiplier issue, it's worth mentioning Gohan also had an additional boost to his SSJ2 state due to anger. Being at less than half of his anger induced SSJ2 state, doesn't automatically mean he is at his Cell fighting FPSSJ level.

To better convey this in numbers:
FPSSJ Gohan: 7
SSJ2 Gohan: 14 + 6(anger boost) = 20
-Gohan arm broken: 9
-Gohan arm broken & confidence restored/anger boosted/etc: 9 + 8 or so = 17 or so
Cell: 19

As for me personally, even though I still think Gohan is undoubtedly stronger...I still see Cell as like 96% Gohan's power anyway. Everything considered, they seemed intended to be in the same league. However, since 7 years later Gohan's power was what was talked and being compared with as if it was the power to beat...Gohan seems to have the slight advantage in power to me.

[Bussani]

I have cell stronger. He says he has powered up like gohan. If we take it that fp pc>mssj gohan and cell has powered up like mssj gohan to ssj2 gohan, then cell should be stronger imo.

That's certainly possible. I did have a thought last time I went over this part, though, and I'd like to mention it since you sort of brought it up. When Cell goes to full power he seems to gain a subtle amount of muscle mass and his aura changes--that is, it almost seems like his "full power" could be like his version of Super Saiyan Grade II. If that's the case, and he was about equal, maybe a little superior to Super Saiyan Gohan before going to full power, couldn't that mean by powering up just like Gohan he might be equal, maybe a little superior to Super Saiyan 2 Gohan?

Just a thought. Not sure if anyone would look at it that way.

[hleV]

There was a power obtained through rage on top of the x2 multiplier of SSJ2 for Gohan, as that's what Goku was going for all that time.
About Cell, who knows. He received a Zenkai and said he'd powered up "like Gohan". Did he "transform" into his-own-kind-of-SSJ2 after receiving the Zenkai or he simply powered up to such level thanks to Zenkai?

What I think is that, since Cell had survived, regained his Perfect form and also learned Goku's teleportation, his mind was clear now. And Cell instantly going back to the battlefield kinda implies that he was now actually stronger than SSJ2 Gohan. And Goku, telling Gohan that he wasn't yet using his full power kinda implies that Gohan could still power up to some extent, which I believe he did at the climax of the Kamehameha struggle.

[Fox666]

SSJ2 is a multiplier of x2 SSJ, so x100 base form. If Gohan lost half his chi from Cell's attack, then that would mean he'd be as strong as his SSJ form during the beam struggle. I highly doubt Gohan was able to double his power and that Vegeta's surprise attack was for nothing. I'd say they're equal, if anything.

I agree. And I think it's absurd to think that Cell was only at half of Gohan's strength considering everything he did. Cell instantly incapacitated one arm of Gohan.

Gohan won the Kamehameha struggle because Cell was distracted by Vegeta and that's not mensurable.

They should be in the same level, and even if one of them is stronger the difference is minimal.

[Kaboom]

I typically go with a combination of the second and third viewpoints, and have for a long while now. My explanation would go something like this:

When Cell came back, he now had enough power to very closely rival Super Saiyan 2 Gohan. Gohan has also calmed down somewhat, meaning he's not gaining much, if any, extra power from anger, so the gap between them is even smaller now. Not realizing this, it leads to Gohan underestimating Cell and ending up seriously injured when taking a hit for Vegeta.

Gohan has lost some amount of power because of his injury, but his lack of confidence is making it worse (using Ki is largely a mental game, especially for Gohan with his Tantrums of Death). With Goku's encouragement Gohan counters Cell's Kamehameha, but is still much weaker, and the clash only lasts for a few short moments (in the manga, anyway) before Gohan is almost overpowered. Only thanks to Vegeta's distraction and one last push from Goku is Gohan able to get angry again and bring his full power (or even more) back out to annihilate Cell.

Gohan ~ 5
Super Saiyan ~ 250
Super Saiyan 2 ~ 500
+Anger ~ 600-700
Injured & Discouraged ~ 300
Final Kamehameha push ~ 500+

Cell (vs SSj Goku/Gohan) ~ 250
Full Power ~ 400
"Super Perfect" ~ 500


As for the nature of Cell's power and how much he gained, I kind of go by what Bussani and Mystic Gohan mentioned. For a long time now, I've found that Cell's power-ups in his perfect form heavily take after and match up nicely with the Super Saiyan and above transformations, so I usually consider them about the same power-wise too, as you can see above. His "regular Super Saiyan" would be around the powered-up level at which he fought Super Saiyan Goku and Gohan.

His "full power" is actually him moderately pumping up in a manner similar to Grade 2 (which if that's "extra" power, might fit with Karin supposing that Cell was only "a little bit stronger" than Goku), his desperate bulky form is like Grade 3 taken to an extreme to match Gohan's anger-boosted level (looks kinda like Broly too), and his more stable "super perfect" form is of course like his Super Saiyan 2, double that of his "regular" power.

[Piccolo Daimao]

I think that Super Saiyan 2 Gohan was slightly stronger than Super Perfect Cell, because Gohan was only injured because he took Cell's blast off-guard. Whether or not he lost half his power isn't entirely relevant IMO, since he'd lost his confidence, probably due to a combination of his wound and Cell having become stronger than he'd thought. But it's strongly implied that the tables had turned once Gohan was wounded, because he went from confident in avenging his father's death to self-loathing and defeatist.

I think the reason Cell returned to Earth is that he'd gotten much stronger and therefore believed that he could now defeat him. The "powered up like Son Gohan" line is merely him referring to how he increased in power as much as Gohan did (as in, the same strength gain, not necessarily that he was now on par with SS2 Gohan, although he believed that) and/or SS2-level strength, represented by his SS2-esque aura, lightning sparks and all.

However, the fact of the matter is that Gohan destroyed Cell with his full-power, regardless of Vegeta's intervention. Cell was winning in the beam struggle due to a combination of Gohan's weakened strength, low self-esteem and underlying reluctance to harm the Earth. Gokuu highlighted the opportunity to defeat Cell once and for all, so Gohan, knowing that this was his last and only chance, finally let rip his full power and obliterated him. If Gohan was weaker than Cell, he would never have been able to overwhelm Cell's regeneration, regardless of whether or not he was off-guard (Cell, who at that point was slightly stronger than SS Gokuu, was off-guard when Gokuu unleashed his Shunkan-Idou Kamehameha on him, yet he still regenerated) and completely destroy him.

[FindKenshi]

I wanted to thank everyone who has contributed so far, and everyone who plans to do so. Anyway, I find it pretty rewarding that someone from each of the Opposing Views I documented has actually shown up in this topic. Or have they?

Lash I'm kind of curious as to your outlook. Your post seems to contradict itself, as in the beginning of your post...

Whether the second factor changes at the last moment, the first doesn't. Gohan completely erases Cell at less then half power.

... you seem to imply that you've taken Gohan's statement about being half-powered as literal, and thus declare that Gohan was strong enough to destroy Cell at less than 50% of his power. Your entire post argues your case, and you're providing good solid reasons why you feel that way.

Then in your last paragraph you abruptly change your mind?

As for me personally, even though I still think Gohan is undoubtedly stronger...I still see Cell as like 96% Gohan's power anyway. Everything considered, they seemed intended to be in the same league.

I'm just asking for clarification here, so I can better understand your actual opinion on the matter. Do you think 50% Gohan > Cell, and that Cell was 96% of Gohan's power? I'm just a little confused, is all.

[lash]

Lash I'm kind of curious as to your outlook. Your post seems to contradict itself, as in the beginning of your post...

... you seem to imply that you've taken Gohan's statement about being half-powered as literal, and thus declare that Gohan was strong enough to destroy Cell at less than 50% of his power. Your entire post argues your case, and you're providing good solid reasons why you feel that way.

Then in your last paragraph you abruptly change your mind?

I'm just asking for clarification here, so I can better understand your actual opinion on the matter. Do you think 50% Gohan > Cell, and that Cell was 96% of Gohan's power? I'm just a little confused, is all.

My number example explains my position a bit.

FPSSJ Gohan: 11
SSJ2 Gohan: 22 + 3(anger boost) = 25
-Gohan arm broken: >12.5
-Gohan arm broken & confidence restored/anger boosted/etc: >12.5 + 14 = >26.5
Cell: 24

(I edited it to use somewhat better numbers)

Basically I do think Gohan defeated Cell at less than half power, but that doesn't actually mean less than 50% Gohan(no buffs or anything) > Cell. In order for a less than 50% Gohan to have defeated Cell, he needed a few things(power of his Kamehameha, effectively drawing more power from his anger, confidence/shouki increase in overall Ki) to finally have Ki > Cell.


Maybe these two comparison statements might help get my perspective across(May be a little confusing at first, but bare with it. In bold are important parts):

Percentage in quotes indicate the power Gohan/Cell effectively was at compared to Gohan's full power. It doesn't include buffs(Kamehameha/confidence boost etc)

Theoretical SSJ2 Gohan Kamehameha- not holding back, confidence peaked, and power drawn from anger heightened(100%)>>Less than Half powered SSJ2 Gohan Kamehameha- not holding back, confidence peaked, and power drawn from anger heightened(>50%) > Theoretical Fresh SSJ2 Gohan's Kamehameha full power(100%)> Cell's Kamehameha > Less than Half powered SSJ2 Gohan Kamehameha(>50%) > Fresh SSJ2 Gohan(100%) > Cell(~96%) > Less than half powered SSJ2 Gohan(>50%)

Theoretical Fresh SSJ2 Gohan with confidence boosted, and anger boosted even more(100%)> Theoretical Fresh SSJ2 Teen Gohan with confidence boosted, and anger boosted even more(100%)> SSJ2 Goku or SSJ2 Majin Vegeta> SSJ2 injured Gohan with confidence restored, anger boosted even more(>50%)> SSJ2 Gohan(100%) > Cell(~96%) > SSJ2 injured Gohan(>50%)

Also, as I'm sure you noticed... my idea of the placement of "Theoretical Fresh SSJ2 Teen Gohan with confidence boosted, and anger boosted even more(100%)" being even greater than SSJ2 Goku or Vegeta stems from Goku's statement to Teen Gohan before he goes on to meet Boo's egg.

Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P4.4-6
Goku: “Ah! Wait, Gohan. I have 2 more senzu; you should eat 1. You used up a lot of stamina earlier. [ ] Get angry, Gohan…Remember how you got angry and fought Cell, and draw out all of the power you have. If you do that, you won’t lose to anyone in the entire world! Not to anyone…

Boo hadn't been shown yet so he'd be excluded. SSJ3 isn't supposed to be used "in this world" anyway, so I'd see it as excluded too.
Well, that's how I interpret the statement at least, I'm sure everyone has their own perspective.

[Rocketman]

Gohan's rage boosts are uncontrolled and unpredictable by nature. Even if Gohan was literally down to his original FPSS level, his anger explosion could've jacked him up to levels it'd take someone else SS3 to reach.

[FindKenshi]

Thanks for elaborating, Lash. Anyway, the "rage boost" kind of presents a variable... but in the past examples (Raditz, Nappa, Freeza) Gohan usually has the boost while he's angry, then it dwindles back down a bit.

By the time Cell had returned, Gohan seemed somewhat calm and in control. Actually, he did too by the time Cell had even gone 100%. Was Gohan really still that angry at the time? Or was the point of his "true power being unleashed" that he had finally learned to master and fully control the "rage power" he spoke of. In this sense as an SSj2 at the Cell fights, Gohan had full control over his "rage power" even if he was calm. The power simply became his to control at last.

Then is this an issue of SSj2 Gohan being stronger than a typical SSj2 because he has that extra "rage bonus", or is this a case of "that's just SSj2 Gohan's powers."

It may or may not be something to consider in this particular debate, but it's an interesting question I hadn't really thought of until now.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Gohan's rage boosts are uncontrolled and unpredictable by nature. Even if Gohan was literally down to his original FPSS level, his anger explosion could've jacked him up to levels it'd take someone else SS3 to reach.

I'm not too sure about that. While I do think that Gohan has more dormant power than Gokuu and Vegeta and some of that can come out in his rage, even tipping over the edge into a full transformation (Super Saiyan 2, something which not even Gokuu had predicted; he only thought a rage boost would be enough for Gohan to kill Cell), I doubt that an angry SS Gohan would be able to generate enough power to reach even SS3-level.

Unless you're referring to the part where Gohan powers up for his Kamehameha against Boo's shell, and later Kaioushin says that, while he was dead, he didn't get to see Gohan's tremendous power, despite having seen SS2 Gohan at the Budoukai.

Chapter: 471 (DBZ 277), P10.2-4
Kaioshin: “I want Gohan to use the Z Sword to defeat Majin Boo. Knowing him, he should definitely be able to use it.”
Kibito: “A-are you serious, Lord Kaioshin…?!! There’s no way that some human would be able to use the Z Sword!! That legendary sword which not merely myself, but numerous Kaioshins were utterly unable to handle…”
Kaioshin: “You were dead, Kibito, so you didn’t get to see Gohan here’s unbelievably tremendous power.”

But I think that Gohan had momentarily transformed into a Super Saiyan 2 for that Kamehameha (which is why it shocked Bobbodi and even the previously confident Dabra so much), like how SS2 Gohan and Cell didn't emit lightning sparks when they powered up for their Kamehameha clash.

Thanks for elaborating, Lash. Anyway, the "rage boost" kind of presents a variable... but in the past examples (Raditz, Nappa, Freeza) Gohan usually has the boost while he's angry, then it dwindles back down a bit.

By the time Cell had returned, Gohan seemed somewhat calm and in control. Actually, he did too by the time Cell had even gone 100%. Was Gohan really still that angry at the time? Or was the point of his "true power being unleashed" that he had finally learned to master and fully control the "rage power" he spoke of. In this sense as an SSj2 at the Cell fights, Gohan had full control over his "rage power" even if he was calm. The power simply became his to control at last.

Then is this an issue of SSj2 Gohan being stronger than a typical SSj2 because he has that extra "rage bonus", or is this a case of "that's just SSj2 Gohan's powers."

It may or may not be something to consider in this particular debate, but it's an interesting question I hadn't really thought of until now.

To be honest, it's not exactly clear how the rage works with his SS2 in this scenario, since Gohan's established to have lost the power he gained from rage after having slacked off for 7 years, not that he literally became weaker. I mean, there's even a case to be made that, once he'd actually started beating down on Cell, he'd calmed down and, when he came back, he would've been just as angry as before because the guy who killed his dad had just returned under a ridiculously lucky set of circumstances (powered up to SS2 Gohan's league, with Shunkan-Idou to boot, for some haxxed reason), killed his friend and was now standing there with a smug little grin on his face.

But, to me, it's not that relevant, since what matters is that Gohan, with one arm, overwhelmed Cell's regeneration and completely destroyed him with his full power, regardless of Cell being off-guard (Cell still regenerated from SS Gokuu, who was close in power to him at this point, firing a Shunkan-Idou at him off-guard that blasted off the top half of his body).

[lash]

Thanks for elaborating, Lash. Anyway, the "rage boost" kind of presents a variable... but in the past examples (Raditz, Nappa, Freeza) Gohan usually has the boost while he's angry, then it dwindles back down a bit.

By the time Cell had returned, Gohan seemed somewhat calm and in control. Actually, he did too by the time Cell had even gone 100%. Was Gohan really still that angry at the time? Or was the point of his "true power being unleashed" that he had finally learned to master and fully control the "rage power" he spoke of. In this sense as an SSj2 at the Cell fights, Gohan had full control over his "rage power" even if he was calm. The power simply became his to control at last.

Then is this an issue of SSj2 Gohan being stronger than a typical SSj2 because he has that extra "rage bonus", or is this a case of "that's just SSj2 Gohan's powers."

It may or may not be something to consider in this particular debate, but it's an interesting question I hadn't really thought of until now.

Like Piccolo Daimao is sort of mentioning...it's pretty vague exactly how this rage boost worked for Gohan in the Cell games. The actual cause for Gohan getting a powerup from anger(and not just every single time he's generally or mildly angry) is due to losing his reasoning, that much is directly stated in the guidebooks and a couple quotes in the manga. I could come up with a dozen explanations ranging from: Gohan's older near adolescent age being the factor for the new found control in his rage induced state and why he was able to maintain it while in SSJ2 instead of losing it like every time in the past. Or I could say the SSJ2 form itself has the added effect of constantly filling Gohan's heart with contempt...thereby allowing him to maintain the anger induced powerup even after 16 tells him to let go and Gohan loses his reasoning for that split moment, etc...

But none of these are actually officially supported or stated. So it's still all up in the air.

[dprez]

I believe Cell was close to Gohan. From how we see Gohan react when he has a second chance to beat Cell and avenge his fathers death, he knows he can win for sure. Cell was a cocky bastard, simple as that. Gohan was also caught off-guard when he was hit by Cells kill shot to Vegeta, and lost his arm, and he mentally felt he had lost half his power. Gohan was indeed surprised at how much stronger Cell had become, but this doesn't mean Cell was stronger from the get go, only that he didn't expect his attack to hurt him so badly. Gohan also believed he was done at this point.

Gohan never released his full Ssj2 power until the final blow that finished Cell off. You could say that Vegeta distracted him, so Cell never had a chance to counter it, but it doesn't really matter since Gohan was never at full power before that moment anyway, and Cell was, but he still couldn't blow Gohan away in time.

Gohan was still superior to Cell even after he got his Zenkai, but Cell had powered up so much, he thought he could kill Gohan now. Remember that even after Gohan became a Ssj2, Cell still thought he could win with his full power. We all saw how that turned out. Cell thinking he is "perfect" was his biggest flaw. This is where every ounce of his confidence comes from. He wasn't exactly at Gohan's level after his Zenkai, or that Kamehameha clash would've ended differently. He was close, basically in the same realm of Ssj2 like power.


Just wanted to add that I also agree that his rage boost's are hard to define in the Cell games. I really never saw how his rage had any control over his power after he became a Ssj2. It's like this form was the correlation of all his anger, thus his rage boosts were somewhat gone, and he had access to all that rage induced power through this form. This of course changes after 7 years of peace, but at this moment during the Cell Games, his power had peaked so to speak, along with his rage boost fueled power-up ability.

[dbgtFO]

I think Cell despite his power-up ended up a bit weaker than Gohan.
That's what seemed implied to me, when Goku said Gohan would win an all-out Kamehameha duel with Cell.
As for why Cell was confident in his new power? Simple: Gohan hadn't put out his full power yet making Cell think he had surpassed him, when in fact he hadn't.

[Fox666]

I think the Kamehameha struggle is being over-analyzed.

An analogy would be two guys around the same strength in an arm wrestling, while one of the guys is using only one arm while the other is using both of them. The guy using two hands is obviously winning, but a third one comes and slap him in the face, causing him to loose.