DragonBall Opposing Views: Cell's power after he returned

[lash]

I saw an analysis on another forum that's worth a mention:

The Daizenshuu also mentions Dabura is equal to Cell’s battle power. Goku mentions Dabura is a lot stronger, but that seems like in response to his magic so Dabura’s magic > Dabura = Cell = teen Gohan. Teen Gohan is also stated to be far weaker than kid Gohan by Vegeta so that pretty much settles it. Kid Gohan > Teen Gohan = Dabura = Cell.

Ignoring any Gohan was or was not SSJ2 against Dabra mentions, If SSJ2 Teen Gohan = Dabra >= Cell then I guess yes, that would settle it...Gohan was irrefutably stronger than Cell, at least according to official supplemental material.

As for "how much" it's still up in the air.
Although Vegeta mentioned Gohan was "far, far better when he killed Cell."...he said so when Gohan was just standing around and not fighting. There's also a very high chance(if not fact) that Gohan wasn't at full power there:

“Un-unbelievable. Is this ‘Super Saiyan’ thing really this great?...Come to think of it, it was quite hard to stop Son Gohan from moving after he became a Super Saiyan…And even that might not have been his full power…”

Kibito: “Huh…!? You can’t mean…Does this have anything to do with Son Gohan…?”
Kaioshin: “That’s right…His power is far beyond our imagination. If we took it and changed it into something even more unreal, he might be able to surpass Majin Boo…”
Kibito: “Wh-what!? That can’t be…”
Kaioshin: “You didn’t see how amazing those 3 Saiyans were, so you probably couldn’t imagine…”

The only other quote stating he's weaker as a Teen is

[Gohan]’s so pathetic…So much so that he was stronger as a brat…”

So while Teen SSJ2 Gohan is clearly weaker than his kid self, I don't see anything that says it has to be by an enormous amount.

[Perfect]

The Daizenshuu also mentions Dabura is equal to Cell’s battle power. Goku mentions Dabura is a lot stronger,

Uh... I don't recall anything in the Daizenshuu like that, anyone have the actual text of it? That would contradict the idea of Gohan getting weaker wouldn't it?

Goku stated they were "about" equal if I recall correctly, not stronger.

[lash]

http://www.kanzentai.com/trans-daiz07.p ... _d-f#dabra

The man who boasts the greatest power in the Demon Realm, a place said to exist on the opposite side of the universe from where Goku and co. live. He had his heart manipulated by Babidi, and become his underling. On top of having a battle power equal to Cell's, he is also skilled in magic. After dying, Enma Daio judged that as king of the Dark Demon Realm he would be happy in Hell, and so he sent him to Heaven.

Don't know what you mean with it contradicting the idea of Gohan getting weaker though...

[Perfect]

Ah never mind, it doesn't specify which Cell; meaning it could very well be his suppressed form that fought Goku, or the full power pre-zenkai one (since post-zenkai strength would contradict the idea of Gohan getting weaker).

[lash]

You really think SSJ2 Teen Gohan is only equal to full power pre near death powerup Cell?
Sounds like a stretch.

Cell is Cell. 1 is 1. A fraction of Cell's battle power isn't Cell's battle power.

[Perfect]

SSJ 2 Kid Gohan = Post-Zenkai Cell (+5%-)

Teen Gohan = significantly weaker than SSJ2 Kid Gohan. Dabra fights equally with Teen Gohan.

That can only work if Dabra's holding back significantly against Teen Gohan (which isn't implied I don't think)...

Also note that SSJ Gohan is half as strong as SSJ2 Gohan, meaning that Gohan and Suppressed Cell were around 50% of their SSJ2 like strengths. So how would Cell's max only be a fraction, before post-zenkai? I'd be maybe 75%? Seems about right for someone that slacked off for seven years. I find it a stretch to say Gohan lost 5% of his overall power over the course of seven years, such a power decrease wouldn't be worth mentioning, or plausible.

[lash]

My only disagreement is how some people seem to think that when Cell is referred to 7 years later it somehow can mean him before his pre near death powerup or just merely the level he was fighting Goku at. I don't see very much credibility to that. The statement is not as ambiguous as Goku saying Redgic's Ki is greater than "Boo's" in GT(which could be referring to the Boo actually alive as opposed to Pure Boo).

When you think of Cell, you think of him before he died at his highest most troublesome power. When people refer to Gohan's power 7 years later, no one's going to think they are talking about his SSJ or base state. So why make the exception for Cell?

[FindKenshi]

Thanks for the contributions, but you may want to hold your peace on anything Dabura related until the Opposing Views segment directly regarding Dabura. I plan to make a series of these topics. Anyway, after discussion here and on DBG dies down a bit, I will assimilate all the argument points I had missed into the initial post, and then as time goes on if anything new is brought up, I'll add that in as well.

My real goal here may be utterly impossible, but I'm simply trying to document EVERY (rational) argument ever used in these debates, and sorta making a "debate guide."

[Perfect]

My only disagreement is how some people seem to think that when Cell is referred to 7 years later it somehow can mean him before his pre near death powerup or just merely the level he was fighting Goku at. I don't see very much credibility to that. The statement is not as ambiguous as Goku saying Redgic's Ki is greater than "Boo's" in GT(which could be referring to the Boo actually alive as opposed to Pure Boo).

When you think of Cell, you think of him before he died at his highest most troublesome power. When people refer to Gohan's power 7 years later, no one's going to think they are talking about his SSJ or base state. So why make the exception for Cell?

Well like I said, either Dabra or Gohan would have to be holding back and it doesn't seem to be implied, really, at all. So logically it couldn't be Cell's post-zenkai because the power loss from Gohan would be so minuscule it wouldn't have been mentioned in that light, nor do I honestly think seven years of not training would really have that much of a neutral loss on him. It's certainly possible they were referring to post-zenkai Cell, but I don't think that really works seeing that nothing indicates the aforementioned.

They could just be referring to Cell in general from his perfect form, meaning they're just comparing Dabra to the last story arc's main villain to get a grasp on how powerful the next main enemy is. Also when they refer to Gohan's power from seven years ago, they're referring to his base form, SSJ and SSJ2 state. Because both are just transformations on top of one another, which means that Gohan's base would have shrank over the seven years.

Edit:

Thanks for the contributions, but you may want to hold your peace on anything Dabura related until the Opposing Views segment directly regarding Dabura. I plan to make a series of these topics. Anyway, after discussion here and on DBG dies down a bit, I will assimilate all the argument points I had missed into the initial post, and then as time goes on if anything new is brought up, I'll add that in as well.

My real goal here may be utterly impossible, but I'm simply trying to document EVERY (rational) argument ever used in these debates, and sorta making a "debate guide."

Well, good luck, hopefully these last few posts help out with that.

[Kaboom]

Goku's wording was that Dabra was "probably about as strong as Cell." That leaves wiggle room. Heck, it was probably worded that way for the very purpose of leaving wiggle room. If any one person wants to get more specific, then they can judge for themselves, mostly based on Dabra's performance against Gohan.

[hleV]

Shouldn't we call Gohan adult instead of teen, as he physically should be 18 at the time of the 25th TB?

And about Dabra's BP being equal to Cell's, that line in Daizenshuu was taken from Goku's vague words regarding Dabra's capabilities. I think it's darn logical to think that Goku meant pre-Zenkai full-power Cell (which was the last Cell Goku's seen before dying), or suppressed Cell (less likely IMO).

[Goten Forever]

Gohan is actually about 17 by that point... physically. He's 16 by the dates.
So he's teenaged, yeah. But I am confused because when I think of Teen Gohan I think of the child SSJ2 Gohan at the Cell Games because of stupid Funimation and its video games.
And I was surprised when it said that Kid (pre-Cell) Gohan was STRONGER but then it clicked.
So what's Kid gohan? Toddler Gohan?

[Fox666]

Is there any need to call Gohan from different sagas by different names?

[hleV]

Gohan is actually about 17 by that point... physically. He's 16 by the dates.

He's 16 (physically 17) at the beginning of Boo arc, but his birthday comes soon after that, and so he's 17 (physically 18) (or... well, very very very close to that) at the time of the 25th TB.

http://daizex.fanboyreview.net/viewtopi ... 6&p=254399

The 25th Tenkaichi Budoukai and Majin Buu; Age 774
Goku: 37 (physically 30)
Gohan: 17 (physically 18)

[Piccolo Daimao]

Shouldn't we call Gohan adult instead of teen, as he physically should be 18 at the time of the 25th TB?

Eighteen is still a teenager. Hence the "teen".

[hleV]

Shouldn't we call Gohan adult instead of teen, as he physically should be 18 at the time of the 25th TB?

Eighteen is still a teenager. Hence the "teen".

Oh. Well, 18 = adult here. How's it in Japan?

[dario03]

Shouldn't we call Gohan adult instead of teen, as he physically should be 18 at the time of the 25th TB?

Eighteen is still a teenager. Hence the "teen".

Oh. Well, 18 = adult here. How's it in Japan?

IIRC 20 = adult in Japan. In America you are legally considered a adult at 18 but a lot of people will still call you a teenager until you're 20 because eighteen and nineteen have teen in the word. I would guess other english speaking countries are similar.

[Bussani]

The plain, dictionary definition of "teenager" is "someone between the ages of thirteen and nineteen." Some countries consider you an adult or young adult at a particular age, but that doesn't technically mean you're not still a teenager as well. As far as a dictionary is concerned, at least.

Gohan is actually about 17 by that point... physically. He's 16 by the dates.

He's 16 (physically 17) at the beginning of Boo arc, but his birthday comes soon after that, and so he's 17 (physically 18) (or... well, very very very close to that) at the time of the 25th TB.

http://daizex.fanboyreview.net/viewtopi ... 6&p=254399

The 25th Tenkaichi Budoukai and Majin Buu; Age 774
Goku: 37 (physically 30)
Gohan: 17 (physically 18)

To be fair, Herms' age guide doesn't go off of statements from the manga, so it often has ages that are a year higher than what is stated. For instance, it says Pan is five at the 28th world tournament even though the announcer says she's four. Do we know for sure that Gohan had a birthday between the Saiyaman arc and the 25th tournament, or is it another one of these cases?

[Fox666]

A teenager means numbers ending with "teen". Even if legally at 18 you have the same rights of an adult, that wouldn't change the meaning of the word. And others language don't have an exact equivalent for it.

Do we know for sure that Gohan had a birthday between the Saiyaman arc and the 25th tournament

No.

Gohan was 4 at the beggining of the series, 5 during the fight with the Saiyans and in Namek, 7 at the time Goku returned from Yardrat, and 10 when the Androids attacked. It is also said in the manga that Gohan turned 11 during his time in the RoSaT.

Even if you ignore the RoSaT, Gohan should be 17 after the 7 years passed since the Cell Games. Since the narrator says in the manga that Gohan is 16, fans assume that his birthday occur beetween the months before the 25th Budokai.

[NANLIT]

A teenager means numbers ending with "teen". Even if legally at 18 you have the same rights of an adult, that wouldn't change the meaning of the word. And others language don't have an exact equivalent for it.

Do we know for sure that Gohan had a birthday between the Saiyaman arc and the 25th tournament

No.

Gohan was 4 at the beggining of the series, 5 during the fight with the Saiyans and in Namek, 7 at the time Goku returned from Yardrat, and 10 when the Androids attacked. It is also said in the manga that Gohan turned 11 during his time in the RoSaT.

Even if you ignore the RoSaT, Gohan should be 17 after the 7 years passed since the Cell Games. Since the narrator says in the manga that Gohan is 16, fans assume that his birthday occur beetween the months before the 25th Budokai.

If Gohan did indeed have his 10th birthday by the time the Artificial Humans appeared (May 12), then it'd be likely he had his 17th birthday by the time of the 25th TB (May 7), unless of course his birthday is between May 7th and May 12th, in which case he was just about 17 at that point.