Cell and Super Saiyan

[Fox666]

I'm firmly on the future androids < present androids side, so I wanted to see, if the claim that Cell lost power was actually supported by a quote somewhere, as Cell being weaker than the present androids, but stronger than the future ones fits nicely with future androids < present androids.

I suppose that could be true. Since Vegeta called Cell a guy with "absurdly large battle power" I suppose he could very well be stronger than the Androids from the future.

[asbereth]

I do agree that imperfect Cell of the future might be stronger than his present counterpart (reverting back to egg form and all that). Be that as it may, there is no reason to think that his future self is more powerful than 2nd-form Cell, which has normal SSJ aura rather than the FPSSJ aura.

And Bussani, thanks for pointing that out. I completely forgot about Goku's aura when he kiiled kid Boo. Though I still think that, at least most of the times in Boo arc (when Goku fought Yakon, when Majin Vegeta first transformed to SSJ, when Gohan fought Dabura and tried to pull out the Z-sword, when Gohan and Goten were sparring [also Vegeta and Trunks inside the gravity chamber], etc), FPSSJ aura is depicted to be more similar to that of a regular SSJ, differing only in the extend it reaches out of the SSJ's body.

We do see FPSSJ aura more consistently usually when the characters first transformed into SSJ though, or when they were charging for a ki attack (Gohan's kamehameha against Boo's egg, Goku's aura when he first powered up against Cell, etc), whereas pre-ROSAT SSJ's were shown as having this kind of aura much much fewer times, even when they just transformed to SSJ.

[Saiga]

I do agree that imperfect Cell of the future might be stronger than his present counterpart (reverting back to egg form and all that). Be that as it may, there is no reason to think that his future self is more powerful than 2nd-form Cell, which has normal SSJ aura rather than the FPSSJ aura.

Well, he didn't have his second form for long so he may not have reached his second form's "full power" before becoming Perfect. So he'd be stronger than his first form at full power but not have the aura.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Future Cell was stronger than present Cell because, in the future, Cell claims that Trunks couldn't defeat #17 or #18, let alone him, implying that he himself is stronger than the Androids. But in the present, he pretty much outright states that he's weaker than the Androids and is planning to continue absorbing life energy until he's surpassed them. He also mentions that Piccolo is the only one who can put up a bit of a good fight against the Androids. And then, after sensing Piccolo's ki, he only then claims that his power already surpasses the Androids.

Chapter: 420 (DBZ 226), P2.3
Context: after Trunks tells Cell he’ll defeat him
Cell: “Trunks…All of your data has been scanned by the spy robot…With your power, you couldn’t possibly defeat No.17 or No.18, let alone me…”

Chapter: 364 (DBZ 170), P5.1
Cell: “I’ll definitely get hold of No.17 and No.18! Even if you guys try to stop me from reaching my perfect form, it won’t do any good! Not if Piccolo is the only one able to put up a bit of a good fight against No.17 and No.18!”

Chapter: 364 (DBZ 170), P8.3
Cell: “I’ll keep absorbing human life energy unnoticed, and steadily increase my power. And once I’ve greatly exceeded the power of No.17 and No.18, I’ll force them to merge with me…!”

Chapter: 367 (DBZ 173), P14.3-5
Cell: “This fierce ki belongs to Piccolo, now that he’s merged with God...! And the only opponents who he’d fight with this much power are…No.17 and No.18! I’ve found you! What good timing! I’ll be there soon! Just you wait! My power already surpasses yours!”

[Fox666]

It would make sense that in the future Cell basically used the same strategy from the present: he absorbed life energy from humans until he had enough power to absorb No.17 and 18.

[Piccolo Daimao]

It would make sense that in the future Cell basically used the same strategy from the present: he absorbed life energy from humans until he had enough power to absorb No.17 and 18.

But, in the future, he presumably started out stronger than the Androids, since there's no prior mention of him having absorbed any humans. Besides, he wants completion, and after reaching that endgame, he has no need for humans anymore. He said so himself during his television broadcast of the Cell Games, announcing that he was the monster who'd killed a bunch of a people while ago, only stronger, and they don't need to worry because he'd gotten all the power he needed.

[Bussani]

And Bussani, thanks for pointing that out. I completely forgot about Goku's aura when he kiiled kid Boo. Though I still think that, at least most of the times in Boo arc (when Goku fought Yakon, when Majin Vegeta first transformed to SSJ, when Gohan fought Dabura and tried to pull out the Z-sword, when Gohan and Goten were sparring [also Vegeta and Trunks inside the gravity chamber], etc), FPSSJ aura is depicted to be more similar to that of a regular SSJ, differing only in the extend it reaches out of the SSJ's body.

It's the same in the Cell saga, too. I think it's meant to work that way throughout.

[Goten Forever]

SS3-esque Cell... sinc he has no hair I wonder if h'd look different from SSJ2.

[Bussani]

SS3-esque Cell... sinc he has no hair I wonder if h'd look different from SSJ2.

He doesn't look any different in his Super Perfect form except for the aura, so I suppose he'd just have the same aura as a Super Saiyan 3.

[bizness86]

I wouldn't mind subscribing to the notion that Cell simply wasn't at full power against Future Trunks, whereas, with Gohan, Cell had peaked before pushing further.

My interpretation of the grade states has always been as a Super Saiyan whom is heavily overexerting his power through muscle alteration. In essence, Vegeta and Future Trunks were maintaining a flex that was much more than they'd normal be able to produce.

This says, although we know Cell was full capable of raising power, perhaps he was merely showing Future Trunks that stretching out one's body was 1-0-1. Cell at Gohan would have actually been trying to annihilate Gohan completely.

I think the grade forms are all the same thing. A1SSJ is overdoing it, A2SSJ is overdoing it even moreso.

[Bussani]

Future Cell was stronger than present Cell because, in the future, Cell claims that Trunks couldn't defeat #17 or #18, let alone him, implying that he himself is stronger than the Androids. But in the present, he pretty much outright states that he's weaker than the Androids and is planning to continue absorbing life energy until he's surpassed them.

Forgot to reply to this--or rather, I forgot how I was going to reply to it at the time and never got around to it.

I suppose what you're saying there only works if the androids of the future aren't weaker than the androids of the past, which is up for debate. If the androids of the past were stronger after all, the Cell of the future could have been stronger than them, but weaker than the past ones. But this does raise an interesting question: if the androids of the past really are stronger than the androids of the future, how would Cell know that? They have no ki. Wouldn't he assume he was stronger, attack them, and get his ass kicked? I can think of three possibilities off the top of my head:

1) Trunks was wrong. His androids and the main timeline androids are the same. His androids just never fought him seriously, much like how Gohan had only seen less than half of #17's power up to the fight in which he was killed.
2) Cell had secretly been watching Vegeta, Trunks and everyone when they fought the androids in the main timeline, so he knew they were stronger than he expected from that.
3) The androids from Cell's timeline (a.k.a. the one where he killed Trunks) were as strong as the androids in the main timeline, while the androids in our Trunks' timeline were weaker. Why? I'unno. This one makes the least sense to me.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Future Cell was stronger than present Cell because, in the future, Cell claims that Trunks couldn't defeat #17 or #18, let alone him, implying that he himself is stronger than the Androids. But in the present, he pretty much outright states that he's weaker than the Androids and is planning to continue absorbing life energy until he's surpassed them.

Forgot to reply to this--or rather, I forgot how I was going to reply to it at the time and never got around to it.

I suppose what you're saying there only works if the androids of the future aren't weaker than the androids of the past, which is up for debate. If the androids of the past were stronger after all, the Cell of the future could have been stronger than them, but weaker than the past ones. But this does raise an interesting question: if the androids of the past really are stronger than the androids of the future, how would Cell know that? They have no ki. Wouldn't he assume he was stronger, attack them, and get his ass kicked? I can think of three possibilities off the top of my head:

1) Trunks was wrong. His androids and the main timeline androids are the same. His androids just never fought him seriously, much like how Gohan had only seen less than half of #17's power up to the fight in which he was killed.
2) Cell had secretly been watching Vegeta, Trunks and everyone when they fought the androids in the main timeline, so he knew they were stronger than he expected from that.
3) The androids from Cell's timeline (a.k.a. the one where he killed Trunks) were as strong as the androids in the main timeline, while the androids in our Trunks' timeline were weaker. Why? I'unno. This one makes the least sense to me.

I'm not sure I entirely understand what you mean, but I always assumed that Cell knew about the (future) Androids' powers based on data that Dr. Gero's computer gave him, since if he was going to absorb the Androids, he'd need to know their strengths before attempting to overpower them if they didn't comply.

1) Personally, I don't believe that Trunks was wrong. If the Androids had the same power between the present and future, then it would mean that the heroes trained for nothing. There's greater impact to the story if Gokuu and/or Vegeta may've been equal or slightly stronger than them, but now these ones are even stronger, making it hopeless. Of course, you could argue that the same still applies if they're the same power, only that the present ones don't hold back and, thus, makes them more dangerous, but "dangerous" isn't the same as "stronger".

I mean, Trunks likely was stronger than future Gohan, so it's not implausible to assume that he could hold them back somewhat, and nothing contradicts it or suggests otherwise.

2) I don't think so. When Trunks, Gohan and Bulma went to inspect the time machine and Cell's cicada, Trunks put his hand inside it and said it was still wet, meaning that he'd only recently moulted and awakened. So he couldn't have been monitoring the heroes' fight with the Androids, since he hadn't been awake for that long and immediately went to absorb humans.

3) I don't quite understand this either. I thought we're assuming that the Androids in Cell's timeline were as strong as the Androids in Trunks' timeline, since there are only subtle differences between them (main one being Cell's interference and murder of Trunks). But my reason is Trunks and/or Cell travelling to the past causing all these strange changes due to the butterfly effect and whatnot. Same reason why #19 and #20 showed up in the main timeline, but apparently not Trunks' timeline (I mean, there's still room for speculation that #19 and #20 did show up in Trunks' timeline, but, like in the main one, they were killed, #17 and #18 came to the forefront, Bulma wasn't there to know about it and Trunks just assumed that they were the ones who appeared on that island and blew shit up. I think there might be a plothole or retcon here too, what with Trunks originally mentioning #19 and #20 in his warning, not wanting Gokuu to tell Bulma and Vegeta that he's their son because he might never be born, despite multiple timelines, etc.).

[Bussani]

Eh, I guess I wasn't clear enough. Lately I'm starting to worry that I don't make any sense to anyone but myself.

Question: If the androids in the past (main timeline) are stronger than the androids of the futures (Trunks' and Cell's two timelines), how would Cell know he needed to get stronger to absorb the past androids? Wouldn't any information he had on their strengths be based on the ones from his future, who are weaker? Yet he knew that only Piccolo (merged with Kami) had the strength to face them.

Chapter: 364 (DBZ 170), P5.1
Cell: “I’ll definitely get hold of No.17 and No.18! Even if you guys try to stop me from reaching my perfect form, it won’t do any good! Not if Piccolo is the only one able to put up a bit of a good fight against No.17 and No.18!”

Those three possibilities I came up with were trying to make sense of how Cell knew the strengths of the main timeline androids. They weren't meant to be logical beyond that, which is why I admitted the third one made little sense.

I mean, Trunks likely was stronger than future Gohan, so it's not implausible to assume that he could hold them back somewhat

It's not implausible, but it's not known for sure either. Gohan hadn't even seen half of their power up until they actually killed him, and Bulma said that Trunks wasn't much more amazing than Gohan had been, so it's just as possible that Trunks never saw their full strength either.

2) I don't think so. When Trunks, Gohan and Bulma went to inspect the time machine and Cell's cicada, Trunks put his hand inside it and said it was still wet, meaning that he'd only recently moulted and awakened. So he couldn't have been monitoring the heroes' fight with the Androids, since he hadn't been awake for that long and immediately went to absorb humans.

Good point. So, again, how did Cell know the androids of the past were stronger than the androids from his time?

[Piccolo Daimao]

Eh, I guess I wasn't clear enough. Lately I'm starting to worry that I don't make any sense to anyone but myself.

Question: If the androids in the past (main timeline) are stronger than the androids of the futures (Trunks' and Cell's two timelines), how would Cell know he needed to get stronger to absorb the past androids? Wouldn't any information he had on their strengths be based on the ones from his future, who are weaker? Yet he knew that only Piccolo (merged with Kami) had the strength to face them.

Could be just me. Sometimes I don't always understand what people are talking about.

What I'm saying is that Cell, after returning to the past, had data on the future Androids and was weaker than them. After absorbing humans, he'd grown enough in power to surpass both the future Androids and the past Androids. I thought that was pretty simple, and even implied in the story himself. Cell doesn't know that the past Androids are stronger than those before; in fact, he doesn't know that anyone are stronger than before, judging by his surprise at SS Vegeta's strength. He doesn't know much about time travel and thinks that everything was roughly the same, which is why he was surprised that Gokuu was alive.

He knew that only Piccolo could face them because Piccolo's equal with the past Androids, who'd be stronger than the future Androids. So of course he'd be able to face them. Although there's room for speculation that Piccolo hadn't entirely revealed his power yet until his fight with #17, so his power in his first fight with Cell was only around the future Androids (while still rivaling the past Androids, according to #16. Although that could be because he could sense Piccolo's full power, while Cell couldn't because he's different or something).

Chapter: 364 (DBZ 170), P5.1
Cell: “I’ll definitely get hold of No.17 and No.18! Even if you guys try to stop me from reaching my perfect form, it won’t do any good! Not if Piccolo is the only one able to put up a bit of a good fight against No.17 and No.18!”

Those three possibilities I came up with were trying to make sense of how Cell knew the strengths of the main timeline androids. They weren't meant to be logical beyond that, which is why I admitted the third one made little sense.

Right, OK. I still don't necessarily agree with them, but I understand.

I mean, Trunks likely was stronger than future Gohan, so it's not implausible to assume that he could hold them back somewhat

It's not implausible, but it's not known for sure either. Gohan hadn't even seen half of their power up until they actually killed him, and Bulma said that Trunks wasn't much more amazing than Gohan had been, so it's just as possible that Trunks never saw their full strength either.

Well, what does Bulma know? I doubt she'd seen Trunks fight the Androids. Of course, I understand that it's exposition, so we should merely take it as fact. Or maybe we shouldn't, in these debating circumstances.

Still, at the end of the day, there's nothing that contradicts Trunks' statement or anything, and I personally believe that it makes for greater impact to the story if the past Androids are genuinely stronger than the future Androids, rather than just holding back. You could even argue that the past Androids were holding back too, since they didn't outright kill them and, rather, left Kuririn to save them with Senzu.

2) I don't think so. When Trunks, Gohan and Bulma went to inspect the time machine and Cell's cicada, Trunks put his hand inside it and said it was still wet, meaning that he'd only recently moulted and awakened. So he couldn't have been monitoring the heroes' fight with the Androids, since he hadn't been awake for that long and immediately went to absorb humans.

Good point. So, again, how did Cell know the androids of the past were stronger than the androids from his time?

Explained that above: he didn't, he only had data on the future Androids and assumed that everything was roughly the same. When he absorbed humans, he ended up being stronger than both the past and future Androids.

[Bussani]

He knew that only Piccolo could face them because Piccolo's equal with the past Androids, who'd be stronger than the future Androids.

There's no way he could know that yet, though.

So of course he'd be able to face them. Although there's room for speculation that Piccolo hadn't entirely revealed his power yet until his fight with #17, so his power in his first fight with Cell was only around the future Androids (while still rivaling the past Androids, according to #16. Although that could be because he could sense Piccolo's full power, while Cell couldn't because he's different or something).

I suppose that's possible. I wonder, if Piccolo hadn't merged with Kami and forced Cell to go overboard with the powering up, might he have attacked the androids without realizing they were stronger and gotten his ass kicked?

I still don't necessarily agree with them, but I understand.

I didn't really agree with two or three myself. The first one I see as possible. Yes, nothing solidly contradicts Trunks' comment about the androids of the past being stronger, but it all kind of hinges on how you interpret things like this. From the right perspective, I think it might be seen as contradicted (e.g. Cell only knows about the future androids, but he knows Piccolo's the only one who can fight the past androids--proven right when #16 confirms that Piccolo's power now rivals #17 and #18's; ergo, the androids of the past and the androids of the future are equals). It could also be completely wrong, but that's how these things go.

[Piccolo Daimao]

He knew that only Piccolo could face them because Piccolo's equal with the past Androids, who'd be stronger than the future Androids.

There's no way he could know that yet, though.

Other than, y'know, sensing his ki and comparing it against his data on the future Androids.

So of course he'd be able to face them. Although there's room for speculation that Piccolo hadn't entirely revealed his power yet until his fight with #17, so his power in his first fight with Cell was only around the future Androids (while still rivaling the past Androids, according to #16. Although that could be because he could sense Piccolo's full power, while Cell couldn't because he's different or something).

I suppose that's possible. I wonder, if Piccolo hadn't merged with Kami and forced Cell to go overboard with the powering up, might he have attacked the androids without realizing they were stronger and gotten his ass kicked?

Well, Cell does mention that he may've gotten carried away and killed more people than he needed to, although he could be joking (like when Freeza was boasting about his lack of self-control in his second-form, after he gored Kuririn).

Chapter: 370 (DBZ 176), P13.2
Cell: “Heh. Looks like I’ve gotten too strong. It’s because I got carried away and killed more people than I needed to for their energy...”

But I don't think the past Androids were that much stronger than the future Androids. At least, not so much that Cell couldn't still absorb enough humans (and maybe a little more, just in case; perhaps he would've gone overboard anyway) to eventually overwhelm the Androids, maybe even after absorbing their ki (which he only failed to do on #16 because he was entirely mechanical, unlike #17 and #18, who were human-based, therefore would still have a bit of ki inside them, even if it was undetectable by organic human means. Also, maybe Cell could absorb some artificial energy from their infinite energy reactors or whatever).

I don't think it was mainly Piccolo that forced him to go overboard anyway, although that's how you may wish to interpret the story. He mentions that Piccolo's the only one able to "put up a bit of a good fight" against #17 and #18, which could imply that he thinks he's in the same league as them. I.e. he thinks #17 and #18 are equal or stronger than Piccolo.

Chapter: 364 (DBZ 170), P5.1
Cell: “I’ll definitely get hold of No.17 and No.18! Even if you guys try to stop me from reaching my perfect form, it won’t do any good! Not if Piccolo is the only one able to put up a bit of a good fight against No.17 and No.18!”

I still don't necessarily agree with them, but I understand.

I didn't really agree with two or three myself. The first one I see as possible. Yes, nothing solidly contradicts Trunks' comment about the androids of the past being stronger, but it all kind of hinges on how you interpret things like this. From the right perspective, I think it might be seen as contradicted (e.g. Cell only knows about the future androids, but he knows Piccolo's the only one who can fight the past androids--proven right when #16 confirms that Piccolo's power now rivals #17 and #18's; ergo, the androids of the past and the androids of the future are equals). It could also be completely wrong, but that's how these things go.

That goes hand-in-hand with my theory that the past Androids aren't that much stronger than the future Androids, enabling Piccolo to still be in their league. Or maybe, as I aforementioned, Piccolo hadn't even shown his full power yet, and it was only #16, with his mechanical scouter-like sensor, that could sense through his full power or something. And Cell couldn't because he's different, doesn't have a mechanical scouter-like sensor like #16 or something.

[Bussani]

He knew that only Piccolo could face them because Piccolo's equal with the past Androids, who'd be stronger than the future Androids.

There's no way he could know that yet, though.

Other than, y'know, sensing his ki and comparing it against his data on the future Androids.

Oh, I see what you mean now. I just figured if he thought Piccolo was stronger than the androids he knew, he'd have said something like that rather than "put up a bit of a good fight."

Well, Cell does mention that he may've gotten carried away and killed more people than he needed to, although he could be joking (like when Freeza was boasting about his lack of self-control in his second-form, after he gored Kuririn).

He also knows that he'll probably have to get through Piccolo, so I assumed he'd go out of his way to make sure he was strong enough to beat him as well. Too bad he wasn't counting on #16.

That goes hand-in-hand with my theory that the past Androids aren't that much stronger than the future Androids, enabling Piccolo to still be in their league. Or maybe, as I aforementioned, Piccolo hadn't even shown his full power yet, and it was only #16, with his mechanical scouter-like sensor, that could sense through his full power or something. And Cell couldn't because he's different, doesn't have a mechanical scouter-like sensor like #16 or something.

Yeah. Like I said, there are different ways of looking at it depending on how you interpret the evidence.

[Piccolo Daimao]

There's no way he could know that yet, though.

Other than, y'know, sensing his ki and comparing it against his data on the future Androids.

Oh, I see what you mean now. I just figured if he thought Piccolo was stronger than the androids he knew, he'd have said something like that rather than "put up a bit of a good fight."

OK, glad we're on the same page.

Well, Cell does mention that he may've gotten carried away and killed more people than he needed to, although he could be joking (like when Freeza was boasting about his lack of self-control in his second-form, after he gored Kuririn).

He also knows that he'll probably have to get through Piccolo, so I assumed he'd go out of his way to make sure he was strong enough to beat him as well. Too bad he wasn't counting on #16.

That's true. But from him believing that Piccolo's the only one able to "put up a bit of a good fight", that implies that he knows Piccolo's around the same level of the future Androids. He never said that Piccolo's even slightly stronger than #17 and #18; if anything, saying that he'd "put up a bit of a good fight" implies that he's weaker than them.

Basically, stronger than #17 and #18 still means that stronger than Piccolo, since they're around the same power.

That goes hand-in-hand with my theory that the past Androids aren't that much stronger than the future Androids, enabling Piccolo to still be in their league. Or maybe, as I aforementioned, Piccolo hadn't even shown his full power yet, and it was only #16, with his mechanical scouter-like sensor, that could sense through his full power or something. And Cell couldn't because he's different, doesn't have a mechanical scouter-like sensor like #16 or something.

Yeah. Like I said, there are different ways of looking at it depending on how you interpret the evidence.

Yep.