The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I think either Android would be enough to take Freeza down, but I'm not sure about Cooler. I'd likely give it to the Androids, since I think the two of them would be a bit much for Cooler by himself. Maybe he could take them out with a Supernova. I doubt they could absorb it.

[Mario]

Technically it is stated for a videogame at best, so you shouldn't take Coola battle power too serious.

Well i found out its officially a V-Jump scan of Final Form Cooler's power level at 470,000,000.Its not from manga or daizenshuu,,,its yust like Vegetas 250,000,,Gohans 200,000 and Krillins 75,000...its all from V-jump..but probably its to high,,i would put him around 200,000-250,000 cuz of his final form...

[Mystic Gohan]

Goku wasn't as strong as Gohan before he fused to make SSj Vegito imo. Once he fused, I think he tapped into some of the fusion's power to become so strong to take on the mightiest Buu being kid Buu.

lol man who told you that he tapped in fusion powers? thats like saying Goten and Trunks know ssj2 and ssj3 cuz of fusion,,where is your proof,,Kid buu is not mightiest yust most dangerous of them all,,,btw in manga Goku ssj1 never fights Gohan Mystic cuz Gohan would break him in 1 min..Truth is only that Kid buu > Goku ssj3 full power...[/quote]
It is the only plausible explanation of how goku got so powerful. He was fodder to gotenks-buu and then he could match a guy who as stronger than gohan buu? Kid buu was stated by kibito kai and goku to be the strongest buu. Fact. Goku fought mystic gohan in base and was fairly even with him. Goku would stomp him in ssj.

[Saiga]

I agree with Mystic Gohan. Anime-wise it's heavily implied that Pure Boo > SSjin 3 Goku > Super Vegetto > SSjin 2 Goku > Pure Boo (Initial) > Gohan-Boo > SSjin Goku > Ultimate Gohan > Base Goku

That doesn't make any sense, even in the anime. If Goku was stronger than Gohan as a Super Saiyan, why would he even send Gohan to fight Super Boo? And if he was stronger than Gohan-Boo in SS2, why did he fuse with Vegeta?

That's just completely warped reasoning that's lacking logic.

Goku wasn't as strong as Gohan before he fused to make SSj Vegito imo. Once he fused, I think he tapped into some of the fusion's power to become so strong to take on the mightiest Buu being kid Buu.

Nothing of the sort has ever been implied. That's reaching for straws there.

[hleV]

Ughh. AT was okay with anime and filler

Doesn't mean that the anime and its fillers are true to the manga. If you're gonna try to explain anime-exclusive contradictions (which you'll eventually fail at, trust me), that's fine. But don't try to make us believe as if what happened in the anime is the truth and must have also happened in the original DB universe, written by AT. Basically, AT is explainable; Toei isn't.

[Mystic Gohan]

AT was okay with filler and anime, therefore it is canon. It is like the same with your daishenzuu. You take it as fact, because toriyama said it is official. Same with the anime. The anime has kid buu>ssj3 goku>super vegito>gohan-buu>gotenks buu>mystic gohan>ssj3 gotenks>buff buu>piccolo buuu>super buu. Why don't you guys just admit you are wrong.

[Kaboom]

Enough about source validity and what is or isn't canon, please. It's been done to death and is not what this topic is for.

[Rocketman]

AT was okay with filler and anime, therefore it is canon.

Who killed Cargo?

[Akumaito Beam]

His unattentive legal guardian.

[Mystic Gohan]

Enough about source validity and what is or isn't canon, please. It's been done to death and is not what this topic is for.

But these guys don't believe that the anime is canon. That is what my whole argument is based on.

[Saiga]

Enough about source validity and what is or isn't canon, please. It's been done to death and is not what this topic is for.

But these guys don't believe that the anime is canon. That is what my whole argument is based on.

There is no single definition of what is canon, so you can't tell us what we have to think is canon.

And Rocketman just pointed out that the anime and manga can't both be canon at the same time.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Some people really need to stop obsessing over canonicity.

[Mystic Gohan]

Why can't there be two types of canon? Anime is like the same thing with the daishenzuu that everybody walks around claiming is law.

[hleV]

Anime is like the same thing with the daishenzuu

No it's not. AT supervised the Daizenshuus, which equals giving and confirming information, to some extent. With fillers, AT only came up with some ideas and designs (he also designed many of the movie characters, does that make movies true to the manga?): Toriyama's Contributions to the Anime. Toei also decided to stubbornly change quite a lot lines of the dialogs (yes, that includes Pure Boo now being said to be the strongest instead of the most troublesome). So anime can't really work in the same universe as manga, because Toei fucked anime up so much, that it not only contradicts what AT originally intended in his manga, but the very anime itself, hence why people tend to just stick with the manga.

And this doesn't really have anything to do with canonicity, as we're discussing if anime can be true to the manga or not.

[Mystic Gohan]

AT did not directly work on the daishenzuu the same way as he never worked on the anime. He said it was okay, therefore we can take his word for it. Idk what you guys aren't getting.

[hleV]

AT did not directly work on the daishenzuu the same way as he never worked on the anime. He said it was okay, therefore we can take his word for it. Idk what you guys aren't getting.

Providing and confirming info is different from giving ideas and designs. If you fail to realize that, then I'd advise you to just go and discuss something else.

I'm not gonna bother with you anymore, as you appear to be too ignorant to realize the perfectly reasonable logic behind people's decision to separate manga and anime into different universes.

[Kaboom]

Okay, look, here's how it works:

Your "personal canon" = Whatever the hell you want. You want to include all the movies and DBO and GT or whatever in your own little fanon universe? Go for it. You like the animated version of Future Trunks' history where he goes Super Saiyan upon Gohan's death better than the manga version where he already transformed some unknown time before it? More power to you. I'm writing a fanfic that serves primarily as a "replacement GT" which fits better with the manga, but I've got Slug as a big part of the entire underlying premise of the story. Because that's how I've arranged things for my personal project.

But when fiddling around with the notion of what's "canon" in an in-depth discussion or debate, i.e. something that requires common ground with other people, it's a little trickier. You have to be more choosy and use what works the best on a universal level. The bottom line is that not everything fits together, like Rocketman's tried-and-true "who killed Cargo" conundrum demonstrates. In the manga, it was Freeza. In the anime, it was Dodoria. Which one is "canon?" That's where there is no good answer.

But for practical purposes, such as debates like those within a "Versus" thread, the usually most common and sensible approach is to go by what's "most original," which in most cases is the manga. The best example is the infamous "who's the strongest Boo" debacle. The manga makes it pretty clear that Pure Boo was powered down in the end compared to his prior "Evil" form who fought Gotenks and Gohan and kept absorbing people. But the anime fouls things up by keeping all that same info yet still deciding to misleadingly hype up the last form of Majin Boo as the strongest. Thus, there's a blatant contradiction. It's a mess, so the wise thing is to not go by the anime version of that segment of the story when engaged in debate or discussion.

Finally, the Daizenshuu and other guidebooks, for the most part, don't have this problem. All they do is collect information and add some extra trivia here or there. Tenshinhan being a descendant of aliens or Super Saiyan 3 being four times stronger than Super Saiyan 2 or Sauzer being from the same star system as Jheese... these things don't cause plot holes or make a mess of things the way "alternate versions" of the story itself do. When someone comes along and asks whether or not Gotenks can use Super Saiyan 2, we can freely point to Daizenshuu #7 which says that "yes, why yes he can."

The underlying point of all this is: "Use some common sense." Don't just go declaring things "canon" or "not canon" for everyone just because of your own preferences. It doesn't work that way. But when it comes to in-depth conversation, the best and smartest approach is to figure out and go by what's most universally applicable and least contradictory to other things.


That's the long and short of it. This topic has been done to death, and it will no longer be discussed in this thread. Let's please try to get away from it and get back to the thread's original purpose.

[Mystic Gohan]

AT did not directly work on the daishenzuu the same way as he never worked on the anime. He said it was okay, therefore we can take his word for it. Idk what you guys aren't getting.

Providing and confirming info is different from giving ideas and designs. If you fail to realize that, then I'd advise you to just go and discuss something else.

I'm not gonna bother with you anymore, as you appear to be too ignorant to realize the perfectly reasonable logic behind people's decision to separate manga and anime into different universes.

Either way he looked at the anime and the daishenzuu and said they were okay. That is word from the author, which is better than silly fan opinions. You're not gonna bother with me anymore, because you can't refute any of my points. Don't act like you're the bigger guy by walking away. It just makes you look like an arrogant prick.

[Kaboom]

Enough. Topic dropped.

[In Brightest Day]

Nappa vs. the three Namekians that battled Dodoria, Appule & the rest of Freeza's henchman on Namek.