Toriyama's SSJ4? (Dragon Box Scans)

Chaos Saiyajin · Post by **Chaos Saiyajin** » Sat Jan 07, 2006 11:09 am

N'cha! I just came an interesting article on Wikipedia about SSJ levels. This is what it said about SSJ4's place in the canon:

(Note that this form is non-canonical to the original manga and anime by Akira Toriyama as it only appears in the anime Dragon Ball GT and that this is the only form that was not actually designed by Akira Toriyama, but by Dragon Ball GT character designer Katsuyoshi Nakatsuru. However, Toriyama created several of the character designs for the series, and has stated that the series more or less went in a direction that he himself would have taken it. In the Japanese DVD boxed set of Dragon Ball GT, released in June 2005, a sketch of Super Saiyan 4 Goku by Akira Toriyama was included as an extra, thus sealing his acceptance of this form.)

Well, since I made you read all that, does anyone have a scan of this 'SSJ4 Goku drawn by Akira Toriyama'?

Thanks in advance!

Post by **VegettoEX** » Sat Jan 07, 2006 11:41 am

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b372/ ... scan01.jpg

As found in this thread:

http://db.schuby.org/daizex/viewtopic.php?t=1959

Chaos Saiyajin · Post by **Chaos Saiyajin** » Sat Jan 07, 2006 11:55 am

Thanks so much, VegettoEX! I love Toriyama-sensei's sketch of SSJ4, it looks more...Dragonball Z-ish...

Ash · Post by **Ash** » Sat Jan 07, 2006 1:07 pm

Don't you mean this picture?

(Same thread)

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b372/ ... scan22.jpg

Post by **VegettoEX** » Sat Jan 07, 2006 1:10 pm

Yes, I do... my bad ^_~.

Chaos Saiyajin · Post by **Chaos Saiyajin** » Sat Jan 07, 2006 1:14 pm

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b372/ ... scan22.jpg

Nice!

Thanks you guys!

Victator Supreme · Post by **Victator Supreme** » Sat Jan 07, 2006 2:31 pm

I really like Toriyama's Super Saiyan 4. It looks much more beastly and animalistic. It looks more like fur instead of red skin.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Sat Jan 07, 2006 3:09 pm

Ash wrote:Don't you mean this picture? (Same thread)

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b372/ ... scan22.jpg

Could someone please translate that page for us?

I like the pic a lot. I find the fur aspects resemble the Oozaru build a lot.

Great Saiyaman · Post by **Great Saiyaman** » Sat Jan 07, 2006 4:52 pm

Wow, that's a pretty nice photo, Toriyama draws non-cannon characters so good.

Conan the SSJ · Post by **Conan the SSJ** » Sat Jan 07, 2006 7:00 pm

You know, considering the facts that Toriyama stated he would have gone the same direction with GT had he done it, considering the man designed characters for the first half of the series, and also considering the fact that the series is done by Toei (same exact company that did original DB and DBZ), I would think most of you would stop saying it's "non-cannon" in the anime universe cannon. With the facts stated, I believe GT is a part of the anime cannon (doesn't belong in the manga cannon though), simply because of the facts I've stated above. Now, if the series was done by an entirely different company than Toei and/or didn't have Toriyama's consent, then I would say it's non-cannon to the anime universe. I personally feel that GT is just as much part of the anime cannon as any other filler from DB or DBZ, simply because of the facts that it has Toriyama's consent and it's done by Toei as a continuation of the original DB and DBZ series, not meant as an AU. From now on, I really wish people stating GT being non-cannon would say "From my POV (point of view), GT is not cannon in the anime universe" and then just state logical reasons. But if the statement is on plot holes, then that person should look at the DBZ anime and even the manga, both of those had their own issues of plot holes, even Toriyama wasn't completely perfect with continuity. So I wish the people viewing GT as "non anime cannon" would stop saying plot holes are the reasons GT shouldn't be considered a continuation of the DB and DBZ series. I'll state one more time: the series has Toriyama's consent, he even helped out with character designs in the first half of the series, it's done by the exact same people whom did the DB and DBZ animes, and Toriyama has stated himself that he would have gone in basically the same direction. So, are some of you guys still gonna say some plot holes and the show not being done directly by Toriyama are the reasons it shouldn't be in anime cannon? Because if you are, then you may as well discount all anime filler period in DB and DBZ, and just consider yourselves manga purists.

Sorry for the rant, guess that's all been boiling up for a while. *takes chill pill* Just humble words from a humble anime purist.

Chaos Saiyajin · Post by **Chaos Saiyajin** » Sat Jan 07, 2006 9:04 pm

So I wish the people viewing GT as "non anime cannon" would stop saying plot holes are the reasons GT shouldn't be considered a continuation of the DB and DBZ series. I'll state one more time: the series has Toriyama's consent, he even helped out with character designs in the first half of the series, it's done by the exact same people whom did the DB and DBZ animes, and Toriyama has stated himself that he would have gone in basically the same direction. So, are some of you guys still gonna say some plot holes and the show not being done directly by Toriyama are the reasons it shouldn't be in anime cannon? Because if you are, then you may as well discount all anime filler period in DB and DBZ, and just consider yourselves manga purists.

I totally agree with you, Conan. I'm sick and tired of people calling GT non-canon, when Toriyama-sensei himself approves of it!

Victator Supreme · Post by **Victator Supreme** » Sat Jan 07, 2006 10:22 pm

The DBZ filler that contradicts the maga is never acknowledged by Toei again. Toriyama had few true plot holes in Dragonballs.

GT was littered with serious plotholes, that made it difficult to enjoy the show.

When has Toriyama ever said he would have taken the story in the same direction GT did?

Post by **VegettoEX** » Sat Jan 07, 2006 10:23 pm

This is not the thread to discuss your feelings on whether or not DBGT should be considered "canon". Please feel free to start an entirely new topic if that's what you'd like to discuss. Thanks!

Socar15 · Post by **Socar15** » Sun Jan 08, 2006 12:16 am

I liked the design either way well enough, though I do prefer Toriyama's version. I don't think I would've called it SSJ4 though. I think I probably would've gone for a completely new name altogether.

ChaotixXero · Post by **ChaotixXero** » Sun Jan 08, 2006 1:48 am

Huh? I don't see any differences. Can someone help my non-artistic instincts and pick up the differences?

t-bone135 · Post by **t-bone135** » Sun Jan 08, 2006 2:45 am

ChaotixXero wrote:Huh? I don't see any differences. Can someone help my non-artistic instincts and pick up the differences?

That's neat, I never knew that Toriyama ever drew a Super Saiyan 4. It just has that touch to it that I can't quite put my finger on. I'd say that the fur looks more coarse and the muscles and eyes seem more defined IMO.

'lo Legends · Post by **'lo Legends** » Tue Jan 10, 2006 12:49 am

GT Super Saiyan 4 is based off of Toriyama's style during late Dragonball...The Super Saiyan 4 Toriyama drew is using his much improved style that was mainly employed during the Neko Majin Z stories (the later ones mostly), and most noticeably Sandland and the Kanzenban covers.

The eyes look waaay different, for one.

And why is Toriyama so good at drawing non canonical characters? Because he's a god damned good artist.

IMO that Super Saiyan 4 Goku is making me hunger for a manga-canon Dragonball continuation, so I'm gonna stop lookin at it...

Bejiita · Post by **Bejiita** » Tue Jan 10, 2006 8:50 am

Toriyama could have(for all we known) made a following manga featuring SSJ4 without Toei ever making GT if they gave him time, Toriyama would have a made a much better story.

His SSJ4, naturally, will look miles better than the anime version, and it does, even that rough sketch in which the hair hasn't been coloured specifically neatly with lines going over the edges looks better than any anime version of SSJ4.

And I really need to stop the smoking, up until now(for some reason) I have always thought Chaos Saiyajin and Conan the SSJ were the same people! Not the same user with 2 usernames or anything...I actually didn't realise the two usernames were actually different, it's only now I've realised!

Post by **SaiyaJedi** » Tue Jan 10, 2006 11:13 am

Dayspring wrote:
Ash wrote:http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b372/ ... scan22.jpg
Could someone please translate that page for us?

I suppose...

Akira Toriyama wrote:ドラゴンボールDVD BOXを買っていただいたみなさん、ほんとうにありがとうございます。
I am truly thankful to all of you who bought this Dragon Ball GT DVD Box.

連載していた　ドラゴンボールが無事終了し、本来なまけもののボクは　やっと　しめきり地獄から解放されめちゃめちゃ　喜んでいました。
Having quietly ended Dragon Ball in serialization, I, who am lazy by nature, was happy to finally be liberated from Deadline Hell.

テレビアニメの方はもうすこし続けたいとのことでしたが、ボクはもうこれ以上は…。というわけでドラゴンボールのアニメはストーリーも含め、すっかりアニメスタッフの方々におまかせすることになったのです。
The people from the TV anime were wanting to continue just a little further, but since I didn't want to do any more than I already had, I ended up leaving everything, including the story, up to the people on the anime staff.

それが『ドラゴンボールGT』です。
That is "Dragon Ball GT".

GTというのはクルマ用語で「グランツーリスモ」つまり速くて高性能なクルマってことですが、この場合は宇宙を駆けまわるっていう設定でしたので「グランドツーリング」壮大な旅という意味を込んでGTとしました。
"GT" is an automotive term, "gran turismo" -- in other words, a fast, powerful car. But in this case, since the plan was to be running all around the universe, I made it GT, carrying the meaning of a great journey, "grand touring."

GTでボクがやったことといえば　このタイトルと最初の主要メンバー、一部のメカデザインと数枚のイメージカットだけですが、ずっとドラゴンボールを続けていただいてきた優秀なスタッフのみなさんなので　安心して　おまかせすることができたのです。
In GT, the only contributions that I made were the title, the initial main character designs, some of the mecha designs, and a number of image cuts. But thanks to the excellent staff that I was having keep continuing Dragon Ball, I was able to relax and leave it to them.

とくに、アニメーターの中鶴くんは　すごい腕前で、ボクの絵のクセなんかをあっというまに会得してしまい、ときどき自分でも　このキャラデザインを描いたのは、ボクか？中鶴くんか？　などとわからなくなることがあったりするぐらいです。
In particular, the animator Nakatsuru-kun is so skilled, and has such understanding of the peculiarities of my drawings, that there have been times that even I have been like, "Did I draw this character design, or did Nakatsuru-kun?," not being able to tell the difference.

たとえば　このGTに登場する『スーパーサイヤ人４』というのは中鶴くんのデザインで、上に描いた絵は、ボクがそれを見て描いた　似顔絵なんです。うまく描いたでしょうか？
For example, "Super Saiyan 4," which appears in GT, was Nakatsuru-kun's design. The image I drew above is the likeness I made after looking at it. Did I do a good job?

原作　ドラゴンボールの　壮大なサイドストーリーであるドラゴンボールGTを　ボクといっしょに楽しく観ていただければ　幸いです。
If you are able, along with me, to enjoy watching the original Dragon Ball's grand side-story Dragon Ball GT, you will be pleased.

鳥山明
Akira Toriyama

B-kun · Post by **B-kun** » Tue Jan 10, 2006 11:28 am

Bejiita wrote:Toriyama could have(for all we known) made a following manga featuring SSJ4 without Toei ever making GT if they gave him time, Toriyama would have a made a much better story.

Could have? Yes. Wanted to? No. Toriyama made it rather clear at several points he wanted to end the story, and he finally had his chance. I say let it be.