Power of SSJ Gogeta

[Kaboom]

They're guidebooks, not rulebooks. They're handy for whatever information one may want to pick out of them or not, but even if one does like to use them, there's no innate requirement that they must treat every single thing in them as solid biblical truth or something.

[Mystic Gohan]

That is like saying you can pick and choose whatever you want in the manga.

[CaBrPi]

That is like saying you can pick and choose whatever you want in the manga.

No, it's not. At all.

See, the guidebooks aren't the original material. They claim things that are directly contradicted by what we see in the manga sometimes, but sometimes they claim things that are perfectly sensible and nothing contradicts it.

So, yes. You can, actually, take the things out that make sense.

[Mystic Gohan]

But if it isn't directly written by AT, then it isn't officially canon. The guidebook unless AT directly contributed to it is still a fan opinion even if it was written by Toei. So it isn't a deal changer in a debate.

[Saiga]

But if it isn't directly written by AT, then it isn't officially canon. The guidebook unless AT directly contributed to it is still a fan opinion even if it was written by Toei. So it isn't a deal changer in a debate.

Weren't you the one trying to pass filler off as canon?

[Mystic Gohan]

LOL yeah i was just joking. Wanted to see if i could get any reactions. Apparently everybody was eager to prove me wrong.

[VegettoEX]

But if it isn't directly written by AT, then it isn't officially canon. The guidebook unless AT directly contributed to it is still a fan opinion even if it was written by Toei. So it isn't a deal changer in a debate.

That simultaneously addresses and ignores what I was asking you earlier: what do you do with material that is contradicted within the manga itself?

What do you do with material that Akira Toriyama himself directly wrote into the manga, but is either wrong, ended up being changed due to his own will or editorial influence, or was swapped out entirely in the kanzenban release?

All of that happens right in the manga itself, and all directly by Akira Toriyama's pen. How do you reconcile that? SOMETHING has to be "wrong" if you're going to cherry-pick what you want to accept as your own personal canon.

And if you're doing that (and you absolutely are), then how can you possibly say that you can't extend that same tactic to official external publications for the franchise?

[gojirason]

I'm under the impression that, while Vegetto might as well be omnipotent, Gogeta should be able to stomp the crap out of everybody else in the series.

It's been stated that Gotenks is several times as strong as Goten or Trunks, yet TOEI has stated that SSJ4 Gogeta is several TENS of times (which I assume to be anywhere from 30-90x) stronger than SSJ4 Goku or Vegeta. Coupled with the statement that Vegetto is especially powerful because it's GOKU and VEGETA in particular (cuz Kibitoshin sure as hell ain't Kaioshin x Kibito), then Gogeta, an anime character, would obviously still play by these rules.

The way I see things...

Goten: 1
SSJ: 50

Gotenks (x3): 3
-SSJ3: 1,200

Gotenks (x9): 9
-SSJ3: 3,600

Goku: 2-3
-SSJ: 100-150
-SSJ3: 800-1,200

Gohan: 1,600-4,800

Gohan-Buu: 2,800-8,400

SSJ Gogeta (30x): 3,000-4,500
SSJ Gogeta (90x): 9,000-13,500

So then, it's entirely possible that Gogeta would be insufficient to beat Gohan Buu, though considering very notable difference in the apparent multipliers for fusion between Gotenks and Gogeta, I find it very hard to believe that Gogeta would be incapable of defeating Gohan Buu, if not with SSJ than with SSJ2 or 3. However it would also be equally possible that Goku and Vegeta could not ascend to SSJ3 or transform at all while fused or would be unsure of being able to before hand.

On that note, I conceed that the potara might very well have been necessary, yet I personally doubt it. This is very much something for the fan to decide on their own.

[Mystic Gohan]

Why wouldn't they be able to scend to ssj3? Goten and trunks did it without having the form. Surely gogeta would be able to.

[goku the krump dancer]

I think Gogeta is INSANELY UNDERRATED! Sure Vegetto may be stronger but i'm pretty sure the gap isn't that big. It amazes me how a lot of people give Gotenks all this credit and applause being "way way way stronger than SSJ3 Goku in base form" (which I don't agree with) yet Gogeta is seen as mere fodder in comparison to Gohan Boo and Vegetto some people put him on par with Ultimate Gohan and Gotenks Boo? C'mon really? I'm certain he could demolish Boohan just as easily as he did Janemba who is arguably around Gotenks Boo. The daizenshuu says comparing the potara to the dance is like comparing multiplication to addition. Goku and Vegeta are kind of even right? but with Goku having an edge because of SSJ3 so lets put Goku at 3 and Vegeta at 2. 3+2=5 (Gogeta) and 3x2=6 (Vegetto). If those two fused fighters managed to fight each other I'm pretty sure the match will end up like the Goku vs Piccolo fight from the 23rd Budokai... The winner will have broken bones.

[jackjack]

2+2=4
2x2=4

100+100=200
100x100=10000

[Bussani]

The daizenshuu says comparing the potara to the dance is like comparing multiplication to addition.

That's from one of the Super Exciting Guides rather than the Daizenshuu. Also, it doesn't compare the potara to the fusion dance, either; the fusion dance isn't even mentioned. It just says, "The power-up from merging isn’t a sum of the two’s battle powers, but rather as tremendous as multiplication."

I still think boiling all fusions down to some simple math is a bad idea, and jackjack just gave a couple of examples why.

[goku the krump dancer]

The daizenshuu says comparing the potara to the dance is like comparing multiplication to addition.

That's from one of the Super Exciting Guides rather than the Daizenshuu. Also, it doesn't compare the potara to the fusion dance, either; the fusion dance isn't even mentioned. It just says, "The power-up from merging isn’t a sum of the two’s battle powers, but rather as tremendous as multiplication."

I still think boiling all fusions down to some simple math is a bad idea, and jackjack just gave a couple of examples why.

Thanks for correcting me and i do agree with your post and I realized the problem i just tried to avoid it by using smaller numbers.

In any case this is one of the reasons why i don't really participate in strength debates, everyone will just keep spouting the same facts/theories that we've been tossing back and forth to each other for the past 7 or 8 years. I just wasn't to fond of how Gogeta was being thrown under the bus during the last few threads he was brought up in so I tried to come to his defence and i do stand by my opinion that he isnt that much weaker at all than Vegetto.

One thing is for sure though we'll never know if the Potara earrings in comparison to the dance are better blinders or just tighter glue.

[Fox666]

After Boo absorbed Gotenks or Gohan, he told Goku that performing the fusion would be useless (first with Gohan and secondly with Vegeta). And since he had the memories of Piccolo and the kids, he should know well enough how the metamorian fusion works. And Goku also was unsure if he could defeat him with the fusion.

So the manga is suggestive about a metamorian fusion beetween Goku and Vegeta being far behind Vegetto, however that's more about the characters speaking hypothetically.

[hleV]

How do you know that Boo had the memory of Piccolo and the kids? If Boo not only gained the absorbees' power and intelligence, but memory as well, why not also the good heart?

And Goku also was unsure if he could defeat him with the fusion.

With which fusion?

[Fox666]

Well, he called Gohan by his name, and I think he had no idea what his name was before.

And Goku also was unsure if he could defeat him with the fusion.

With which fusion?

Huh, I think I did some confusion there.

[Beji]

2+2=4
2x2=4

100+100=200
100x100=10000

I know it says Gogeta SSJ4 was like 10x that of a SSJ4 so in that case (ssj4+ssj4)x5. I'd like to think in only a few instances and lower the dance would actually be more powerful than potara
2 farmers
(2+2)*5=20
(2x2)=4

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I know it says Gogeta SSJ4 was like 10x that of a SSJ4

Actualy, he is not ten times stronger, but tens times stronger.

[Beji]

Actualy, he is not ten times stronger, but tens times stronger.

?
What is tens

[VegettoEX]

"Ten" refers exactly to the number 10, while "tens" is a vague term that could mean 20, 30, 40, etc. -- multiples of the number 10 without being exact.