Question about Saiyans.

[masterz13]

It seems they placed a lot of emphasis on the Saiyans' abilities to get stronger after each battle. But after the Frieza saga, they kind of stepped away from that. So I have two questions.

1) How much of an incremental increase are we talking after the later battles? I ask especially in the cases of:
-SSJ2 Gohan after he beats Cell.
-Goku after defeating Kid Buu.
-Vegeta/Trunks after they get beat by Cell before and during Cell games.


2) Do half Saiyans also benefit from this as well? I want to say yes just because Trunks had been able to keep up with the androids in his future after some near death battles and clearly mentions this.

[Fox666]

http://www.kanzentai.com/bp.php?id=guide

What about the change in Goku's battle power after that?
Even after the battle with Freeza, formidable enemies surpassing human knowledge appeared one after the other to face Goku. Though the power-ups received after having wounds healed became small, Goku and co. began using transformations and fusions to increase their battle powers, to the point where they could no longer be measured numerically...

Note
The ending paragraph seems to mostly be a way of explaining why no battle powers are available after the battle with Freeza, saying that past this point battle powers become simply immeasurable. The way the note about near-death power-ups becoming "small" is phrased in Japanese (sukunakunatta), it could either mean that they became small, infrequent, or simply insufficient.

[Super Vegetto]

It seems they placed a lot of emphasis on the Saiyans' abilities to get stronger after each battle. But after the Freeza saga, they kind of stepped away from that. So I have two questions.

1) How much of an incremental increase are we talking after the later battles? I ask especially in the cases of:
-SSJ2 Gohan after he beats Cell.
-Goku after defeating Kid Buu.
-Vegeta/Trunks after they get beat by Cell before and during Cell games.


2) Do half Saiyans also benefit from this as well? I want to say yes just because Trunks had been able to keep up with the androids in his future after some near death battles and clearly mentions this.

This are hard questions. Vegeta goes from 30,000 to rival Frieza 530,000 so its no point to start how much would they get in powers after battle..Zenkai is always higher than any battle and training, but price is to feal pain which saiyans didnt realy neaded after Freeza is killd,,
Il try to explain as much as i can:
No one from first question didnt get zenkai but Gohan is probably only one that was badly injured...

Yes Trunks got 2 zenkai after getting almost killd by Androids. Bulma probably saved him. Future Gohan somehow had better chance after getting zenkai from androids but still it wasnt enough cuz androids have unlimited stamina...

[Piccolo Daimao]

My short answer is that they basically used it up once they became Super Saiyan, because the Zenkais were pretty much all leading to that and may've been increasing (albeit, perhaps still somewhat arbitrarily) towards that goal.

[masterz13]

That makes sense. Maybe it's some sort of natural selection feature to aid them in becoming super saiyans, at which point they wouldn't benefit from it since they had ascended to that level.

[SylentEcho]

Maybe the Zenkai varies according to how much they've been beaten up.

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

Could be that by the time Super Sayain becomes the norm, the power boosts Zenkais do give are inconsequential- what's a three-fold miracle boost when everyone and their brother is powering up fifty-fold by default?

[Bussani]

what's a three-fold miracle boost when everyone and their brother is powering up fifty-fold by default?

Pretty good if your opponent (say, Cell) is only a bit stronger than you, actually.

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

what's a three-fold miracle boost when everyone and their brother is powering up fifty-fold by default?

Pretty good if your opponent (say, Cell) is only a bit stronger than you, actually.

Whose boost are we referring to here? The only thing Cell's really served to do was to make his resurrection not completely pointless, seeing as the only move he ever made against Gohan was against a Gohan who admitted to being at half power, at which point Cell's pre-zenkai strength would have been a lot more viable anyway. It's cool, definitely a really interesting and ominous way to reintroduce the concept, but I don't get how we're supposed to really quantify it other than "he can still take a stronger Vegeta's ki blast spams".

Or are we assuming Gohan had a zenkai? When did he actually heal from an injury in that battle?

I have a feeling that I completely missed your point.

[Bussani]

I have a feeling that I completely missed your point.

Uh, kind of. I meant a miracle boost giving you three times the strength would be very useful if your opponent was only a bit ahead of you. Even if it only doubled your strength each time, it would be so easy to abuse.

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

I have a feeling that I completely missed your point.

Uh, kind of. I meant a miracle boost giving you three times the strength would be very useful if your opponent was only a bit ahead of you. Even if it only doubled your strength each time, it would be so easy to abuse.

That is actually very true; but I think my statement still stood in that later on we're talking such incredible boosts and generally with very clear "You can't beat me because I have more ki even if I'm not using all of it" power divides that it still wouldn't be a game changer. Particularly with Buu "Oh look, I can't beat this guy by multiplying my power 400-fold (Powah x 50 + x2 +x4)! Well shoot!"

Amazing that we get to a point where extreme exaggeration of the body's natural recovery that is theoretically laughably easy to abuse nearly becomes the next weighted clothing.

[Hitiro]

If we take the largest Zenkai we know of, that would be Goku's after he got his body back from Ginyu, Goku went from a powerlevel of 90,000 to 3 million. This is a substantial increase if you think about it as he practically went from being weaker than Frieza's first form to surpassing his 2nd and maybe coming close to his 3rd. Taking this example if we say 3 million is the maximum a person can Zenkai and thats only when you've been beaten to within an inch of your life, like Goku was, then these increases wouldn't matter as much later on. If we say by the time the androids come about Goku is pushing 60 mill, the same amount as Frieza at 50% in his final form, then for SSJ we're looking at 3 bill. Increase his base to 63 mill? In SSJ he'd have 3.15 bill; now compare that to if he had a base powerlevel of 3 million which gave him 150 million against Frieza and add another 3 mill on top of his base powerlevel making it 6 million. He'd have 300 million in SSJ, what is the difference? The difference is Goku doubled his strength in the latter but the former he gained a 5% increase. If you're dealing with enemies in the billions then a 5% increase may sway a fairly even battle but someone who is double your strength you wouldn't be able to match them. If your enemy is in the millions and he has double the strength of you? You can match them after one Zenkai which gives you 3 million. Also you have to realise that Zenkai's work differently for each person and you're not guaranteed a huge increase in power.