The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[Fox666]

You can destroy/detonate a nuclear bomb with a cannon ball, that doesn't mean the cannon ball is stronger.

[Piccolo Daimao]

You can destroy/detonate a nuclear bomb with a cannon ball, that doesn't mean the cannon ball is stronger.

Is that in response to my comment? If so, I don't believe that's a fair comparison. I think the power of the Shin Kikouhou itself played a big (although perhaps not entire) part in why it stalled Cell, therefore it would obliterate those much weaker.

You may say, "Well, why didn't he use it against #17 and #18, then?", but he was knocked out before he could do anything, perhaps didn't think that it'd be enough (not to mention it being a last-resort that could fail and end up killing himself, like it did with Nappa; he wouldn't want to leave Chaozu again) and later put his hopes in Piccolo and the Super Saiyans, or he only developed it until after the fight with the Androids.

Or are just thinking that it's absurd that Tenshinhan can wield so much power in the Shin Kikouhou in the first place? Well, firstly, it's just like all those other instances where characters grow immensely strong in short spaces of times (see Piccolo's improvement after only three years training for the Androids with SS Gokuu and Gohan, although I and many others have a theory for that) as a plot device.

Secondly, yes, he has that much amount of power that can destroy an opponent he ordinarily wouldn't be able to by themselves. It's called ki amplification, just like Piccolo's Makankousappou or Gokuu's Kaiouken (I don't necessarily go by the theory that Tenshinhan implemented Kaiouken or something similar into his Shin Kikouhou, though). So why would this one be so much more ridiculous? Because it's even stronger than the "unstoppable" Super Saiyans?

Nothing says that Tenshinhan can't generate an attack that strong, especially with all DB has taught us. Maybe some people are just being biased or refusing to admit yet another instance of characters making ridiculous jumps in power or with attacks that happens all the time in the series.

[Rocketman]

Because Tien's been farting about in the mountains with Chaozu for three years, not butting heads with a Super Saiyan.

[Saiga]

I doubt he'd even break 100,000 in those three years, so I don't see him having the power to damage the androids at all. The only reason the Shin Kikoho did anything was because it caught Cell off guard in mid flight and stunned him. I have no idea why 19 and 20 couldn't absorb that either, ki is ki.

[FNF]

C20 thought Tenshinhan's Ki, along with Krillin and co, could make up the difference between himself and SSjin Vegeta making him only being in the ultra low millions/hundreds of thousands an impossibility.
You also have the scan showing Tenshinhan's reflexes are on the same level as base Goku's.

[Saiga]

C20 thought Tenshinhan's Ki, along with Krillin and co, could make up the difference between himself and SSjin Vegeta making him only being in the ultra low millions/hundreds of thousands an impossibility.
You also have the scan showing Tenshinhan's reflexes are on the same level as base Goku's.

It's definitely not impossible. 20 was a fool even when he had measurements of power.

What scan is that?

[FNF]

C20 thought Tenshinhan's Ki, along with Krillin and co, could make up the difference between himself and SSjin Vegeta making him only being in the ultra low millions/hundreds of thousands an impossibility.
You also have the scan showing Tenshinhan's reflexes are on the same level as base Goku's.

It's definitely not impossible. 20 was a fool even when he had measurements of power.

What scan is that?

It's definitely more than possible. C20 knew himself>SSjin Vegeta (post big bang attack). Vegeta had to start bluffing that he had more power to spare.


http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa3 ... n_/144.jpg

Reflexes are largely power dependent as shown in the Freeza fight.

[Saiga]

It's definitely more than possible. C20 knew himself>SSjin Vegeta (post big bang attack). Vegeta had to start bluffing that he had more power to spare.

I didn't say it wasn't possible, I was saying that it isn't impossible like you claimed. 20 thought he or 19 could defeat SS Goku but the only reason 19 did is because of Goku's heart virus.

http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa3 ... n_/144.jpg

Reflexes are largely power dependent as shown in the Freeza fight.

That proves absolutely nothing. It doesn't show that Tenshinhan has even reflexes with Goku at all.

[Rocketman]

If buttfucking Chaozu is such great exercise, why doesn't everybody do it.

[FNF]

It's definitely more than possible. C20 knew himself>SSjin Vegeta (post big bang attack). Vegeta had to start bluffing that he had more power to spare.

I didn't say it wasn't possible, I was saying that it isn't impossible like you claimed. 20 thought he or 19 could defeat SS Goku but the only reason 19 did is because of Goku's heart virus.

No, he thought that 'he was still within a level' that he was capable of defeating. It sounds more like c20 thought that although he was above them, he was still beatable by other means via absorption for example. He could also tell the following after Goku's Kamehameha;

Context: after No.19 absorbs Goku’s attack
No.20: “Alright! No.19’s maximum power rating has greatly increased from what it was before! In contrast, Son Goku’s energy has fallen remarkably…!”

http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa3 ... n_/144.jpg

Reflexes are largely power dependent as shown in the Freeza fight.

That proves absolutely nothing. It doesn't show that Tenshinhan has even reflexes with Goku at all.

How does that prove nothing? lol! Goku struggles to dodge the eye beams as does Tenshinhan. That shows they have similar reflexes.

@Rocketman, shove a Rocket up your ass

[Saiga]

How does that prove nothing? lol! Goku struggles to dodge the eye beams as does Tenshinhan. That shows they have similar reflexes.

It doesn't show that they have similar reflexes. Nothing on Goku's face looks like he's struggling, just suprised. It only shows Tenshinhan is capable of dodging an attack that wasn't aimed at him. Big whoop.

[FNF]

How does that prove nothing? lol! Goku struggles to dodge the eye beams as does Tenshinhan. That shows they have similar reflexes.

It doesn't show that they have similar reflexes. Nothing on Goku's face looks like he's struggling, just surprised.

Gritting teeth>?
His general facial expression suggests some form of struggle as does Tenshinhan's.

It only shows Tenshinhan is capable of dodging an attack that wasn't aimed at him. Big whoop.

Oh dear. Now that's a pretty poor excuse to discredit this feat.

Think of it like a tennis player hitting a ball at full force and it hitting someone in the crowd behind the opposite side of the court.
If person 'A' dodges the ball yet in an identical scenario, the ball hits person B, one would assume person 'A's reflexes are better than person 'B's.

[Saiga]

Gritting teeth>?
His general facial expression suggests some form of struggle as does Tenshinhan's.

Gritting teeth from surprise. Doesn't look at all like he's struggling to dodge, just surprised and moved out of the way.

Oh dear. Now that's a pretty poor excuse to discredit this feat.

It really isn't. There's nothing impressive or telling about that feat. You're just over analysing everything as per usual.

Think of it like a tennis player hitting a ball at full force and it hitting someone in the crowd behind the opposite side of the court.
If person 'A' dodges the ball yet in an identical scenario, the ball hits person B, one would assume person 'A's reflexes are better than person 'B's.

But if person A dodges the ball yet in an identical scenario person B dodges the ball, that doesn't suggest they're even at all just both capable of dodging the ball.

[Fox666]

How does that prove nothing? lol! Goku struggles to dodge the eye beams as does Tenshinhan. That shows they have similar reflexes.

I don't really see how that could possible mean anything.

Besides, No.20 wasn't even aiming at them, he was trying to destroy the surroundings. Arguably any of them would be able to dodge it otherwise.

[FNF]

Gritting teeth>?
His general facial expression suggests some form of struggle as does Tenshinhan's.

Gritting teeth from surprise. Doesn't look at all like he's struggling to dodge, just surprised and moved out of the way.

'Gritting teeth from surprise'? What the fuck. If you can name one example where that has happened, you can have a cookie. There are a ton of examples in the manga where gritted teeth are used to show a struggle. The only other thing it's used for is to express anger.

+Why would Goku be 'surprised' by the beam if he seen it coming waaaay before they dodged it? Even your own logic is flawed.

Oh dear. Now that's a pretty poor excuse to discredit this feat.

It really isn't. There's nothing impressive or telling about that feat. You're just over analysing everything as per usual.

Ignorance is bliss for you isn't it?

Think of it like a tennis player hitting a ball at full force and it hitting someone in the crowd behind the opposite side of the court.
If person 'A' dodges the ball yet in an identical scenario, the ball hits person B, one would assume person 'A's reflexes are better than person 'B's.

But if person A dodges the ball yet in an identical scenario person B dodges the ball, that doesn't suggest they're even at all just both capable of dodging the ball.

But if they dodge the ball with a similar level of difficulty, especially in the DB verse where they can each ridiculously high speeds, it shows they are around the same level.

I don't really see how that could possible mean anything.

Besides, No.20 wasn't even aiming at them, he was trying to destroy the surroundings. Arguably any of them would be able to dodge it otherwise.

I guess it means nothing that Vegeta was able to see Freeza's death beam even though the manga proves other wise.

They dodged it. Of course it was heading right towards them. It doesn't matter if c20 intended to hit them or not. The fact of the matter is they both shown the same level of difficulty in dodging it.
If AT wanted to show base Goku>>Tenshinhan he would have just had him dodge the attack like he did as an SSjin vs 50% Freeza. The point being made is that Tenshinhan has comparable, if not equal, reflexes to Goku.

[In Brightest Day]

Because Tenshinhan's been farting about in the mountains with Chaozu for three years, not butting heads with a Super Saiyan.

You trying to discredit something that happened in the Manga because it doesn't fit with logic in a fictional universe is legitimately one of the funniest things I've ever read here.

[Saiga]

I hardly doubt Toriyama is trying to make a subtle statement like that. It's not how he does things. When Vegeta dodged Freeza's beam, it was explicitly spelled out for us and made clear that none of the others could see it. Nothing of the sort is happening here. And nothing looks like Goku is straining himself, just shocked. You're over analysing things and making something from nothing.

[In Brightest Day]

I hardly doubt Toriyama is trying to make a subtle statement like that. It's not how he does things. When Vegeta dodged Freeza's beam, it was explicitly spelled out for us and made clear that none of the others could see it. Nothing of the sort is happening here. And nothing looks like Goku is straining himself, just shocked. You're over analysing things and making something from nothing.

Not sure if this is directed at me or FNF, but just in case I wasn't talking about the Dr. Gero/Goku/Tenshinhan thing.

[Saiga]

I hardly doubt Toriyama is trying to make a subtle statement like that. It's not how he does things. When Vegeta dodged Freeza's beam, it was explicitly spelled out for us and made clear that none of the others could see it. Nothing of the sort is happening here. And nothing looks like Goku is straining himself, just shocked. You're over analysing things and making something from nothing.

Not sure if this is directed at me or FNF, but just in case I wasn't talking about the Dr. Gero/Goku/Tenshinhan thing.

FNF, I just couldn't be bothered continuing with all the quoteblocks. I'm not even sure what your comment was about.

[Fox666]

I don't really see any meaning in Goku or Tenshinhan dodging the beam. I can perfectly picture Piccolo in the very same position of them.