Little idea I had for Boo arc finale revision

[Piccolo Daimao]

I know this kind of topic has been banged on about countless times, but I just wanted to bring it up. I was thinking, to solve the whole problem of Gokuu coming back to life and being the hero who gets to defeat the villain again (thus demeaning the development of Gohan and even Goten and Trunks, who shafted Gohan), it could be more of a team effort (as if it wasn't in the first place, but a way to include Gohan and Gotenks in too). I don't think Gohan should've been the hero, because, like Toriyama said, he's not the right man for the job (in fact, none of them are, bar Piccolo - no bias here; he's intelligent and isn't a Saiyan nor an Earthling who'll slack off or be as selfish as Gokuu or Vegeta), isn't a fighter at heart and can't be relied to train even in times of peace (shown when he couldn't even defeat Dabra, a henchman who would've been nothing if he wasn't rusty), so it'd be wrong to force him into doing something that he doesn't like and turn him away from his dream job of becoming a scholar.

I don't exactly know how all the events leading up to this would happen, but I believe that Gokuu and Vegeta should've stayed dead (maybe he'd get to temporarily come back by bargaining with Enma to provide him with porn magazines, replacing his bargain with the old Kaioushin, who wouldn't exist, nor would the Z-Sword - how could a god believe that some legendary sword could defeat Majin Boo?) and Vegetto would be replaced by Gogeta (like in DBZ Movie #12, they'd have to run and hide so they could perform the dance, which, due to Vegeta's high discipline, especially compared to Goten and Trunks, would get right the first time; I found Potara to be a lazy copy-paste of Fusion with none of the interesting disadvantages and it was ridiculous how Kaioushin and Kibito somehow knew nothing about it), whose time limit runs out not due to toying around like Gotenks, but because it took too long to force Boo into absorbing him, find and free his absorbed friends, escape and soon afterwards, defuse. He may even take the initiative to try and kill Boo before he could finish transforming, but Kaioushin could advise him against doing so, as Boo's magic was unpredictable (like how, back in the spaceship, Kaioushin was afraid of blowing up the spaceship because the energy could revive Boo). When Boo would finish transforming, Gogeta would be about to destroy Boo with a Soul Punisher (nothing less would be able to) when he defuses.

Anyway, fast-forward to the battle on the Kaioushin Realm. I'd remove SS3 Gokuu and SS2 Vegeta's fights with Boo for Mr. Satan stepping in and making Pure Boo vomit out Fat Boo earlier, and so Fat Boo would replace Vegeta in stalling while Gokuu forms the Genki Dama. I found it nice that the final battle was between the underdogs of the arc (one of them literally being a dog), following the classic Toriyama staple of the villain's final form being the smallest and least intimidating yet most dangerous one of them all), challenging the trend of "new power-up/transformation saves the day" by Gotenks failing, and the finisher being a leftover from the earlier arcs that had never worked before and there was no reason to know, but tied in the Earthlings helping to save themselves for once, while also giving Vegeta his "hero moment" too.

So, as Pure Boo's resisting the Genki-Dama (Gokuu still having his energy due to SS3 not existing in this revision, but the Genki-Dama still not being enough), the last wish is made to teleport Gohan and Gotenks to the Kaioushin Realm. Gohan transforms into "Super Saiyan 2" (instead, a manifestation of his dormant power, rather than a new SS form, and exclusive to him) and Gotenks powers up (neither him nor the kids themselves have SS here). They use their Kamehamehas to give the Genki-Dama one last push, obliterating Boo.

What are your thoughts?

[Goten Forever]

...The kids not being SSJ? Do you like them at ALL? I think they could get SSJ, just differently...
I mean, sure, perhaps not SSJ3 gotenks but at least a SSJ2 Gotenks. Or some other, new manifestation exclusive to Goten/Trunks/Gotenks.
But yeah, I think Goku and Vegeta should have stayed dead to put more meaning into their sacrifice. Them being alive after didn't affect the storyline much, it only fucked it up.
Gogeta hadn't been invented by Toriyama but yes, an iteration of him would be great in the Manga. The 'Soul Punisher' was a pretty Toei move, so he's naturally have another move.
I would like some low-key character to save the day. That's why I liked Mr Satan's involvement. But it was ultimately Goku's technique that won the war.

Gohan as the only 'SSJ2' would be cool.

[Mystic Gohan]

I think Gohan could have held up the role of hero if AT would seriously let Goku stay dead.

[Piccolo Daimao]

...The kids not being SSJ? Do you like them at ALL? I think they could get SSJ, just differently...

No, I don't like them; the only thing I like about them is their dynamic. I think I've already explained this in other threads, but not only do I dislike little kids in general, Goten was just a one-note, unimaginative Gokuu clone with none of his charming qualities and no personality (unless you can call an extension of kid Trunks a personality) and they basically shat on Super Saiyan as a concept and all the training the previous heroes had to do to get to where they are, when these two brats are handed SS on a golden platter, as well as shitting on Gohan's character development by shafting him in favour of two kids (but ironically, they were subsequently shat on when Gokuu was made the hero again instead of them, despite it being built-up, even by Gokuu himself).

And I understand that it was the final arc and all, but Toriyama shouldn't have introduced two "next generation" characters if he was going to under-utilize them so much. They ended up just being Fusion fodder and, while it's realistic since they're Earthlings at heart and would be normal teenagers trying to live normal lives, they went down the already-tread Gohan route of slacking off when they got older/in times of peace.

I mean, sure, perhaps not SSJ3 gotenks but at least a SSJ2 Gotenks. Or some other, new manifestation exclusive to Goten/Trunks/Gotenks.

I think Fusion, along with Gotenks himself and his wacky but effective techniques, should've been an interesting enough concept that Gotenks would be immensely strong even just in base form. It wouldn't be any more ridiculous than some of the other power-ups and transformations previously in the series, and Fusion's basically magic anyway.

Gokuu, Gohan, Vegeta and future Trunks were enough people to have Super Saiyan. Push it over the edge by having two more people get it, and not only that, but they're kids that seemingly did nothing to earn it, and you lose all impact of what it was meant to be in the first place. Yeah, I know, it'd kind of already been raped with the whole "beyond Super Saiyan" thing (I don't believe that there being more than one SS demeaned what was a shitty legend in the first place, since nothing said there couldn't be more than one SS; Vegeta only denied Trunks being SS because he was sure that there were no Saiyans alive but him, Gokuu and Gohan, not to mention Trunks didn't have the classic Saiyan black hair).

Gogeta hadn't been invented by Toriyama but yes, an iteration of him would be great in the Manga. The 'Soul Punisher' was a pretty Toei move, so he's naturally have another move.

I think Toriyama actually said he thought up Potara and Vegetto because Gogeta had already been used in DBZ Movie #12, but I don't think he should've let that stop him.

You may think that the "Soul Punisher" was a pretty Toei move, but I don't (better than a boring old Kamehameha anyway). I think DBZ Movie #12 as a whole actually seemed very Toriyama-ish.

I think Gohan could have held up the role of hero if AT would seriously let Goku stay dead.

Toriyama didn't seem to explicitly be comparing him to Gokuu or anything when he was saying he wasn't suited for the hero role, although I understand that may've been in his mind at the time (Gohan fulfilling the hero role had effectively been rendered invalid from the word "go": he hadn't trained at all, couldn't beat an opponent Gokuu and Vegeta would now have no trouble with, and Goten and Trunks were the "next generation" heroes like Gokuu and Piccolo were putting their hopes into; this was all before Gokuu came back to life, and we know that Toriyama rarely plans ahead, and definitely not in the Boo arc, likely where he was at his most tired and uncaring about whether or not it was incoherent, but he just wanted to have fun now without the restrictions of past editors).

I think he shared my opinion: that he's not a fighter, nor does have his courage (compare Gokuu managing to launch himself straight through Daimaou with only one working arm to Gohan giving up when Cell had injured just one arm and needing the encouragement of his father and Vegeta's interference to let rip and win).

Therefore, as we saw with Dabra (a henchmen, not even the main villain; you could compare him to how the Saibaimen filled in the role of "henchmen that's as strong as last villain, but the heroes can still beat him", yet Gohan couldn't even defeat him) and Boo, Gohan can't be relied upon to protect the Earth from opponents stronger than the last enemy, if he doesn't have the drive of full-blooded Saiyans and/or warriors who actually like fighting, such as Gokuu, Vegeta and Piccolo.

[DBZ Mick]

I prefer it as it is personally.

Regardless of the flaws and all.

and they basically shat on Super Saiyan as a concept and all the training the previous heroes had to do to get to where they are

Like I mentioned in another post the SSJ concept got shat on when Gohan and Future Trunks became one. When anyone ANGRY could become one. Only Goku and Vegeta really trained and pushed themselves all out and became SSJs felt satisfying. Not saying Goten and Trunks becoming SSJ's wasn't cheap because it was.

I think Gohan could have held up the role of hero if AT would seriously let Goku stay dead.

Maybe if he was like he was against Freeza and while on Namek. But I don't like how Gohan suddenly became a pacifist against Cell and then giving up like straight away when Cell returns.

[Saiga]

I think Gohan's a better hero then all of them because he's actually willing to fight villainry on a small scale during times of peace. Seems to show he cares for the people a lot more.

And yeah I wouldn't make many changes to the Boo arc at all, I prefer it the way it is. The only big change I'd make is making Gohan the hero.

[Gaffer Tape]

I think that's a great revision. I think it works much better than it currently is. However, I haven't seen Movie 12 that much (it's been about 4 years since I last watched it, and, somehow, it wasn't with all the rest of my DB movies when I recently unpacked), so I honestly can't remember what a "Soul Punisher" is. Honestly, unti other people started referencing it, I assumed it was an attack you made up!

However, I'd like some source on Toriyama creating Vegetto because Gogeta had already been used. Checking Kanzenban, the movie came out in March of 1995, but Vegetto first showed up in February of 1995. I suppose it's possible that, with the lead time of a movie, Toriyama might not have been sure if his own combination would hit shelves first. I mean, it is pretty close, so it's certainly possible, but Vegetto beats out Gogeta.

But I also agree with Saiga that Gohan makes a better hero than anyone else.

[Piccolo Daimao]

and they basically shat on Super Saiyan as a concept and all the training the previous heroes had to do to get to where they are

Like I mentioned in another post the SSJ concept got shat on when Gohan and Future Trunks became one. When anyone ANGRY could become one. Only Goku and Vegeta really trained and pushed themselves all out and became SSJs felt satisfying. Not saying Goten and Trunks becoming SSJ's wasn't cheap because it was.

I disagree. It's not that any Saiyan who got angry enough could become one, and as I aforementioned, there was nothing in the legend that said there couldn't be more than one Super Saiyan. Vegeta only refuted Trunks being one because 1) he was damn sure there were no Saiyans alive but him, Gokuu and Gohan, and 2) Trunks had purple hair, whereas all Saiyans, including Gohan, had black hair.

I believe the anime handled Gohan and future Trunks' respective transformations better, but for the former, it was bound to happen eventually. Gohan had always been touted as special and possessing more dormant power than even Gokuu and Vegeta, not to mention being more prone to rage than both of them. For the latter, Trunks was a half-Saiyan who likely had more dormant power than Gokuu and Vegeta too, and he'd grown up in an apocalyptic world destroyed by the Androids.

I think that's a great revision. I think it works much better than it currently is. However, I haven't seen Movie 12 that much (it's been about 4 years since I last watched it, and, somehow, it wasn't with all the rest of my DB movies when I recently unpacked), so I honestly can't remember what a "Soul Punisher" is. Honestly, unti other people started referencing it, I assumed it was an attack you made up!

However, I'd like some source on Toriyama creating Vegetto because Gogeta had already been used. Checking Kanzenban, the movie came out in March of 1995, but Vegetto first showed up in February of 1995. I suppose it's possible that, with the lead time of a movie, Toriyama might not have been sure if his own combination would hit shelves first. I mean, it is pretty close, so it's certainly possible, but Vegetto beats out Gogeta.

But I also agree with Saiga that Gohan makes a better hero than anyone else.

Yeah, thanks. And I think the "Soul Punisher" is what some of the video games called the attack that Gogeta defeated Janemba with. I don't think the Daizenshuu has an official name for it (or at least one that isn't merely a lengthy description of it), so I just used a name that would be recognizable to most people.

I don't necessarily know the source, but I think Kanzentai confirmed it in an interview.

I believe that, perhaps looking at the basic fundamentals, Gohan makes a better hero than Gokuu, but I just don't see that energy and courage in him that I do in Gokuu (refer back to Daimaou/Cell comparison). And because he's not a fighter at heart, he can't be relied on to train in order to defeat villains stronger than the last.

I don't like the idea of Gohan practically feeling obligated to do something he dislikes in peacetime anyway. I know about the whole "with great power comes great responsibility" thing, but that's not DB's shtick. This isn't Superman or Spider-Man, which can be looked at in trying to teach us a lesson, but that's different from what DB tries to teach us, or doesn't.

[Gaffer Tape]

Whoah. Please forgive my ridiculous typographical error. I meant that I checked Kanzentai, the website, not Kanzenban, the... Kanzenban.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Whoah. Please forgive my ridiculous typographical error. I meant that I checked Kanzentai, the website, not Kanzenban, the... Kanzenban.

Yeah, that's what I assumed, but I just forgot to correct you.

[DBZ Mick]

I believe the anime handled Gohan and future Trunks' respective transformations better, but for the former, it was bound to happen eventually. Gohan had always been touted as special and possessing more dormant power than even Gokuu and Vegeta, not to mention being more prone to rage than both of them. For the latter, Trunks was a half-Saiyan who likely had more dormant power than Gokuu and Vegeta too, and he'd grown up in an apocalyptic world destroyed by the Androids.

Fair enough. I do think the anime handled them better too. I just hate the manga with Gohan- Think of Freeza killing your Dad- Blam Super Saiyan straight away...

[TheDevilsCorpse]

However, I'd like some source on Toriyama creating Vegetto because Gogeta had already been used. Checking Kanzenban, the movie came out in March of 1995, but Vegetto first showed up in February of 1995. I suppose it's possible that, with the lead time of a movie, Toriyama might not have been sure if his own combination would hit shelves first. I mean, it is pretty close, so it's certainly possible, but Vegetto beats out Gogeta.

I don't necessarily know the source, but I think Kanzentai confirmed it in an interview.

It's worth pointing out that Vegetto was created after Gogeta (Toriyama mentions in his Daizenshuu 6 interview that he had to invent the potara because the movies had already used Fusion to create a Goku/Vegeta fusion). So maybe the reason is simply that the more obvious name had already been taken.

http://daizex.fanboyreview.net/viewtopi ... 0&p=202273

[Perfect]

The only change I liked was really just nerfing the kids, since I view them as pretty damn annoying.

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

It just seems kind of nitpicky... nerf the kids (Fine by me!), involve Gohan in the final attack (Piggybacking off an attack used by one person?), and erase Vegetto from existence (Great character, enormous ass pull, I can dig it)?

I think we need to see the implications these things have on the rest of the arc first. I think the funniest thing you've made me notice is how this scenario does indeed let you write out Super Sayain 3 entirely, since a SS2 can stall Fat Buu and if Fat Buu's stalling Kid Buu than there's no need for Goku to fight.

I think Gohan could have held up the role of hero if AT would seriously let Goku stay dead.

Well as I've probably said half a dozen times, ever since I heard Mike, Meri, and Jeff's total disinterest in Ultimate Gohan in the Manga review, I reevaluated the scenario myself and came to the exact opposite conclusion. Rant time!

Gohan spends the whole series growing stronger, experiencing his anger power ups, and trying to draw personal boundaries with it, which he is finally forced to resolve in the Cell saga by dropping his inhibitions and just letting it out for once. That could have been the end of that character arc right there; Gohan's still not a fighter, but he's not afraid of himself anymore. He's beaten a villain, he can stop being random hidden power guy.

Then Toriyama gets the perfect chance to add an epilogue to whole thing with a Gohan who, although still socially awkward and learning about the world as any 16 year old should, is not only older, wiser, and more confident in himself than he's ever been, but who has had his latent power maximized through no mental strain or trauma.

We have Gohan at his best with a clear head, to the point where he gets to taunt his enemy at the silliness of the turn of the tide without becoming Vegeta, and with adequate reason to go in for the kill, having lost almost everyone he's ever loved and having overheard his younger brother and mentor's life-and-death scrap with the pink beast, only again, with no rage, just the resignation to the utter death that everyone had at that point out of necessity.

And what does Toriyama do with it? Have Gohan send Buu into in existential crisis, then get Gotenks absorbed, derailing the whole thing. It's not the first time a power-up with a lot of build up has been invalidated quickly (I mean Piccolo and Kami, holy cow! You're a badass for two fights and then useless!), and it does make a pretty brutal twist. But as much right as Toriyama to say who is hero material, I just don't think it's classy to waste that kind of opportunity.

Gohan, though still fighting for necessity like he always has, had finally become what people had tried to build him into over the entire series. And you just throw it out like that?

The only change I liked was really just nerfing the kids, since I view them as pretty damn annoying.

I just want the kids nerfed period. The fact that they're generally powerless as Super Sayains without fusion really doesn't justify it.

[Goten Forever]

IMO SSJ Goten + SSJ Trunks SHOULD make some sort of bloody IMPACT.
Buu didn't find them worth absorbing when they defused. That was a ridiculous blow to SSJ.

[Goten Forever]

...The kids not being SSJ? Do you like them at ALL? I think they could get SSJ, just differently...

No, I don't like them; the only thing I like about them is their dynamic. I think I've already explained this in other threads, but not only do I dislike little kids in general, Goten was just a one-note, unimaginative Gokuu clone with none of his charming qualities and no personality (unless you can call an extension of kid Trunks a personality) and they basically shat on Super Saiyan as a concept and all the training the previous heroes had to do to get to where they are, when these two brats are handed SS on a golden platter, as well as shitting on Gohan's character development by shafting him in favour of two kids (but ironically, they were subsequently shat on when Gokuu was made the hero again instead of them, despite it being built-up, even by Gokuu himself).

And I understand that it was the final arc and all, but Toriyama shouldn't have introduced two "next generation" characters if he was going to under-utilize them so much. They ended up just being Fusion fodder and, while it's realistic since they're Earthlings at heart and would be normal teenagers trying to live normal lives, they went down the already-tread Gohan route of slacking off when they got older/in times of peace.

Yeah, and as I have said before, that frustrates the fuck out of me.
Goten trying to be a normal teenager... with his Goku personality that doesn't fit at all. Kid and Teen Gohan at least had the same personality. Trunks is adaptable. Goten? No. Goten should be a fighter like Goku as he wanted to be.
I wish Goten got some character development. I really do.
Uub was so sudden and anticlimactic. The purpose of Goten and Trunks became none other than to shaft SSj in general.

Goten's mother dying + HTC training - the perfect time for Gotenks to kill off Buu quickly and cleanly. But like Vegetto he shows off.

Carrying on with another character, if Goten and Trunks didn't sort it out, then at least gohan should have won. But no, Gotenks is absorbed and Gohan ends up running around trying to find a damn ring as Goku fights Buu.

Then Vegetto even is finished.
Then all the characters are saved from Buu to be promptly killed off. That was just terrible.
Then Buu is killed by GOKU, who should have stayed DEAD.

[Saiga]

IMO SSJ Goten + SSJ Trunks SHOULD make some sort of bloody IMPACT.
Buu didn't find them worth absorbing when they defused. That was a ridiculous blow to SSJ.

Not really... even a SS2 isn't relevant to that form of Boo. He's just that strong.

[Goten Forever]

IMO SSJ Goten + SSJ Trunks SHOULD make some sort of bloody IMPACT.
Buu didn't find them worth absorbing when they defused. That was a ridiculous blow to SSJ.

Not really... even a SS2 isn't relevant to that form of Boo. He's just that strong.

That fucks SSJ even more then.

[Gokuman1993]

I don't exactly know how all the events leading up to this would happen, but I believe that Gokuu and Vegeta should've stayed dead (maybe he'd get to temporarily come back by bargaining with Enma to provide him with porn magazines, replacing his bargain with the old Kaioushin, who wouldn't exist, nor would the Z-Sword - how could a god believe that some legendary sword could defeat Majin Boo?) and Vegetto would be replaced by Gogeta (like in DBZ Movie #12, they'd have to run and hide so they could perform the dance, which, due to Vegeta's high discipline, especially compared to Goten and Trunks, would get right the first time; I found Potara to be a lazy copy-paste of Fusion with none of the interesting disadvantages and it was ridiculous how Kaioushin and Kibito somehow knew nothing about it), whose time limit runs out not due to toying around like Gotenks, but because it took too long to force Boo into absorbing him, find and free his absorbed friends, escape and soon afterwards, defuse. He may even take the initiative to try and kill Boo before he could finish transforming, but Kaioushin could advise him against doing so, as Boo's magic was unpredictable (like how, back in the spaceship, Kaioushin was afraid of blowing up the spaceship because the energy could revive Boo). When Boo would finish transforming, Gogeta would be about to destroy Boo with a Soul Punisher (nothing less would be able to) when he defuses.

As I agree with your revision, I don't agree with the fact of leaving Goku and Vegeta dead.

[Fox666]

IMO SSJ Goten + SSJ Trunks SHOULD make some sort of bloody IMPACT.
Buu didn't find them worth absorbing when they defused. That was a ridiculous blow to SSJ.

Not really... even a SS2 isn't relevant to that form of Boo. He's just that strong.

Not even a normal Super Saiyan 3 is...