Do the die-hards really hate GT?

[Saiga]

That's your view, which is only one among many.

I'm sorry but what can the anime be seen as other than an alternate universe to the manga?

If that's wrong then either the events of the anime didn't happen at all or it's somehow canon to the manga (which is impossible)

If the anime isn't in its own continuity. Then please explain what it is.

Well as you said:

1) either the events of the anime didn't happen at all

2) it's somehow canon to the manga

Both of those are alternate viewpoints. Also what Hellspawn said.

[YamiAtomsk]

If the anime isn't in its own continuity. Then please explain what it is.

A adaptation of the manga. Just like what the One Piece anime is to the manga and various movies are to books.

Yes and the anime adaptation has events that are exclusive to itself. This is not a straight re-telling of the manga. Things exist in the anime that don't in the manga such as all the elements in the other world tournament, Bubbles and Gregory, etc.

This is a similar world to the manga but it is still different and as such its own continuity.

[YamiAtomsk]

That's your view, which is only one among many.

I'm sorry but what can the anime be seen as other than an alternate universe to the manga?

If that's wrong then either the events of the anime didn't happen at all or it's somehow canon to the manga (which is impossible)

If the anime isn't in its own continuity. Then please explain what it is.

Well as you said:

1) either the events of the anime didn't happen at all

2) it's somehow canon to the manga

Both of those are alternate viewpoints. Also what Hellspawn said.

Do people actually hold these view points? Like I said being canon to the manga is impossible and does anyone really think that the events of the anime didn't happen at all?

[Chuquita]

I don't hate it. The things I dislike about GT are mostly cosmetic stuff. I don't like a lot of the character designs (Sorry Mr. Toriyama!) in particular.

Also, I remember the whole "Goku's a child now 'kay bye!" thing drove me nuts back in the day. It felt like a huge tease to have adult Goku for half an episode and then whoops he's gone for the rest of the series minus the epilogue (unless you count ssj4, but even that...) but I don't mind it as much now.
Also that fourth GT ending animation with adult Goku with his tail! That was the biggest, most frustrating tease of GT to me at the time.


As for arcs:
Dragon Ball hunt--in SPACE! : fun concept, mostly-wasted potential
Bebi : Would have liked this better if Vegeta somehow avoided possession. I'm kind of curious about why they chose pink and red for Goku and Vegeta's fur(?) colors instead of oozaru-brown or black to match their hair. My only in-universe answer for that is a lot of the time in nature its the males who are all brightly-colored and the females who get to blend in to the surroundings, but even then I think that's mostly a bird thing?
Super 17 : I barely remember this arc at all aside from 18 showing up, the Freeza and Cell episode, and the board game episode.
Evil Dragons : Same boat as the first GT arc; I wish there had been more dangerous dragons and less gag ones. Also I dislike Shenlong "eating" Goku at the end, but the whole Goku-being-absorbed and coming back a hundred years later thing makes an interesting concept to play off of.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Bebi : Would have liked this better if Vegeta somehow avoided possession. I'm kind of curious about why they chose pink and red for Goku and Vegeta's fur(?) colors instead of oozaru-brown or black to match their hair. My only in-universe answer for that is a lot of the time in nature its the males who are all brightly-colored and the females who get to blend in to the surroundings, but even then I think that's mostly a bird thing?
Super 17 : I barely remember this arc at all aside from 18 showing up, the Freeza and Cell episode, and the board game episode.

I'm pretty sure the board game episode you are talking about is the Sugoroku Space episode from the Bebi Arc from when Kibitoshin tries to save Goku from Bebi and drops him while teleporting. lol As for SS4, red was likely chose because its a strong and heroic color in Japan (Vash, Dante, Edward Elric, Alucard, etc.), but here's the official answer anyway...

Super Saiyan 4, which appears in the later half of GT, was one of your designs, but I was surprised at how unusual the design was.

Nakatsuru
There were a lot of varied opinions about that design. It was my idea to make the body red. "GT" was made as a continuation, and when the producers told me to draw Super Saiyan 4, I went "Ee----------h!?" (strained laughter). Personally, I felt that since they had gone so far as to use stuff like Fusion and merging in the original story, did we really have to continue even further? It was an incredible assignment. Goku's transformations are an important part of the program, and so I agonized over what would be best to do.

-------------

The hairstyle and red fur all over the body are what really makes Super Saiyan 4 stand out.

Nakatsuru
The thought behind that hairstyle was to take it in a different direction than Super Saiyan 3, and make it wild. I made the fur red because it pretty much just seemed strong; I place a lot of importance on those sorts of impressions (laughs). Right from the planning stage images, the idea had been to bring together Oozaru Goku and Super Saiyan Goku. "Goku with primal power", that sort of thing.

-------------

So that's why his entire body is covered in fur. In addition to the final design, were there any rough designs?

Nakatsuru
There was no design besides the single final draft. It was just that with the colors, and I also made a gold-haired version. However, I thought that black hair looked better, and decided upon that version. The combination of black and red is a more dynamic color scheme.

[Bussani]

does anyone really think that the events of the anime didn't happen at all?

How do you define "happen" in this situation? It's an adaptation of a work of fiction. I don't see how it matters if it "happened" or not. You can say things like, "the anime is canon to itself," but such statements don't really mean anything.

I'm sorry but what can the anime be seen as other than an alternate universe to the manga?

Well, you could define an "anime canon" that consists of Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z, and the TV specials, but not GT; and then go on to define a "GT canon" that consists of all of the above, plus GT and its special. Anyone can technically make up any canons they want, including Toriyama and Toei, if they really wanted to. That's why it's a tricky subject. "Official" canon is literally whatever the people in charge decide it is, whether it fits your personal expectations or not.

Heck, if I were writing my own continuation for the Dragon Ball story, as the author I could say, "This story's canon consists of the manga, 50% of the anime filler, the movies--even though that makes little sense--and GT's special, but not GT itself." The story would be written assuming that all of those things "happened". Would that be a good idea? In my opinion, no. But if I did it, that's the canon people reading it would be stuck with.

[Chuquita]

Re: TheDevilsCorpse

It has been a long time since I've seen GT if I can't recall what arc that board game episode was. XD
I probably haven't watched it all the way through since the dub aired on Toonami and even longer since I've seen it in Japanese.

That Nakatsuru information is interesting. I kind of like that he did the design in one shot, pretty cool. :3

I agree on the black and red vs the yellow and red color scheme for ssj4. Black with red does look more dynamic. I also appreciate the use of gold irises for Goku's ssj4 because of how different that is. I think Vegeta gets like a blue or teal for his, but that's really similar to the eyes for the blonde ssj transformations.

[YamiAtomsk]

does anyone really think that the events of the anime didn't happen at all?

How do you define "happen" in this situation? It's an adaptation of a work of fiction. I don't see how it matters if it "happened" or not. You can say things like, "the anime is canon to itself," but such statements don't really mean anything.

I'm sorry but what can the anime be seen as other than an alternate universe to the manga?

Well, you could define an "anime canon" that consists of Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z, and the TV specials, but not GT; and then go on to define a "GT canon" that consists of all of the above, plus GT and its special. Anyone can technically make up any canons they want, including Toriyama and Toei, if they really wanted to. That's why it's a tricky subject. "Official" canon is literally whatever the people in charge decide it is, whether it fits your personal expectations or not.

Heck, if I were writing my own continuation for the Dragon Ball story, as the author I could say, "This story's canon consists of the manga, 50% of the anime filler, the movies--even though that makes little sense--and GT's special, but not GT itself." The story would be written assuming that all of those things "happened". Would that be a good idea? In my opinion, no. But if I did it, that's the canon people reading it would be stuck with.

Basically my argument is "If they aren't in continuity with each other then they are different continuities". I can't really see this as an opinion. Either it is or it isn't.

GT I could see as an AU separate from the normal anime continuity (along with any other movies that can't be wedged into the series timeline). But that's only because of the plot-holes mentioned earlier.

GT aside I can't see how this is hard to take in. Instead of arguing over what is the "official canon" why can't we just have several different continuities? A manga canon, a main anime canon that includes DB, Z, the specials, some of the movies and maybe GT, and some secondary continuities for the movies that can't be put into either of the earlier ones.

It's not like we'd ever get official word on something like this. So why don't we just split everything up?

[TheDevilsCorpse]

I also appreciate the use of gold irises for Goku's ssj4 because of how different that is. I think Vegeta gets like a blue or teal for his, but that's really similar to the eyes for the blonde ssj transformations.

The color bounces around between green and blue and one scene of yellow, I think, in the series. Though, I'm pretty sure the official stance for Vegeta's eyes is green as seen on most of Toei's artwork and the video games, cards, etc. So Goku gets yellow, Vegeta gets green, and Gogeta has Blue.

[Bussani]

GT aside I can't see how this is hard to take in. Instead of arguing over what is the "official canon" why can't we just have several different continuities? A manga canon, a main anime canon that includes DB, Z, the specials, some of the movies and maybe GT, and some secondary continuities for the movies that can't be put into either of the earlier ones.

It's not like we'd ever get official word on something like this. So why don't we just split everything up?

I don't think it is hard to take in. What you've just said is what I'd do, and I think a lot of people around here feel the same way. The only exception is that people tend to use the term "canon" by itself as shorthand for what you'd call "manga canon", which is the only one that's close to being universally accepted in the fandom. It's not a true official canon--because as we've said, there isn't one--but it's the one that's least disputed. So when someone here says "this wasn't canon", they probably just mean it's not in the manga or that Toriyama didn't come up with it, rather than that it didn't "happen" in a...cosmic sort of sense.

[MCDaveG]

I don't, I like it! I see it not as sequel, but kinda as Gaiden.
Only Dragon Ball manga is canon to me, with the anime ending with Z. Then I like the Movies, but don't take them as canon and GT is in the same category to me as Z movies are.
What I don't like much (and don't throw rocks on me) are Dragon Ball movies, altough I like the first series more than Z.
I'm always little bored how the first two are heavy recycled, and the third uses no original character in it, only different setting and story and the Path to Power is simply twisted remake of first arc with Red Ribbon arc mashed up and is hasty as hell (Hey, that's Violet! Boom......).

[Jackal puFF]

I don't hate it as much as I did when I first saw it. I thought the whole idea of GT was actually good. Space adventures with Goku could have been fun! It's just the way it was executed that was bad. To me it's just an accessory to Dragonball.

[YamiAtomsk]

GT aside I can't see how this is hard to take in. Instead of arguing over what is the "official canon" why can't we just have several different continuities? A manga canon, a main anime canon that includes DB, Z, the specials, some of the movies and maybe GT, and some secondary continuities for the movies that can't be put into either of the earlier ones.

It's not like we'd ever get official word on something like this. So why don't we just split everything up?

I don't think it is hard to take in. What you've just said is what I'd do, and I think a lot of people around here feel the same way. The only exception is that people tend to use the term "canon" by itself as shorthand for what you'd call "manga canon", which is the only one that's close to being universally accepted in the fandom. It's not a true official canon--because as we've said, there isn't one--but it's the one that's least disputed. So when someone here says "this wasn't canon", they probably just mean it's not in the manga or that Toriyama didn't come up with it, rather than that it didn't "happen" in a...cosmic sort of sense.

Okay I see what you're saying now.

Also a thought just ocurred to me. In the GT episodes where Frieza and Cell return, I noticed that in a group shot of villians was Cooler in his 5th form.



Now It's been awhile since I've seen Cooler's Revenge but if that movie can't be placed in the anime continuity and is an AU, then GT would be a part of that continuity.

Just food for though. What do you guys think? Was there enough time for Cooler to happen in series timeline?

[Puto]

All that implies is that Coola existed, at some point, in the GT universe, and that he died. It does not, however, necessarily imply that the events of movie 5 happened exactly as we saw them.

[Bussani]

Now It's been awhile since I've seen Cooler's Revenge but if that movie can't be placed in the anime continuity and is an AU, then GT would be a part of that continuity.

Another possibility is that GT Cooler and movie Cooler are two different Coolers. Imagining that GT takes place after one or more of the movies rather than the series is definitely an interesting take on it, though... I wonder if I'd interpret it differently if I watched the series with that in mind.

Of course, the real answer is that Toei doesn't care that much about continuity and canon. Their approach is, "Wouldn't it be cool if these villains all appeared?!" Quite like modern day Super Sentai and Kamen Rider movies, really.

[Fox666]

Do people actually hold these view points? Like I said being canon to the manga is impossible and does anyone really think that the events of the anime didn't happen at all?

Well, when it comes to the adaptations of Lord of the Rings or Harry Potter, you don't see fans saying that elements exclusives to the movies are true for the books.

[Akumaito Beam]

GT is one of the most bland, cookie cutter anime that's supposed to be a sequel to a series that was anything but. It's The Big Bang Theory of anime, there's this thin layer of illusioned "risk taking" over one big ball of cliches and choreographed jokes. Now imagine if The Big Bang Theory was called Seinfeld 2 and...that gets my point across effectively I think.

[YamiAtomsk]

Now It's been awhile since I've seen Cooler's Revenge but if that movie can't be placed in the anime continuity and is an AU, then GT would be a part of that continuity.

Another possibility is that GT Cooler and movie Cooler are two different Coolers. Imagining that GT takes place after one or more of the movies rather than the series is definitely an interesting take on it, though... I wonder if I'd interpret it differently if I watched the series with that in mind.

Of course, the real answer is that Toei doesn't care that much about continuity and canon. Their approach is, "Wouldn't it be cool if these villains all appeared?!" Quite like modern day Super Sentai and Kamen Rider movies, really.

That's a definite possibly too and a really good topic for a fanfiction.

If GT really is an AU then I wonder how things panned out in that continuities' Z portion and why it did.

[Hellspawn28]

Was I the only one who hated the humor in GT? I remember they try to make the humor funny when it came out really dull and flat to me.

[Saimaroimaru]

The problem with GT is that it goes from the adventure style of DB to just overpowered villains of Z. To be honest I felt it should have stayed with the galaxy travel premise and switch Goten for Pan and add in Uub and turn it into a right of passage/pass the torch thing.