Theory of a Dragon

[Eclipse]

What if he's not supposed to do anything. Sure, he's strong as Kami-Sama and all that, and whatever. But Kami-Sama created Shenlong so he could grant the wisher's wishes. Maybe he didn't think to make him so he 'could grant wishes AND defend himself from sneak attacks'. It's a good theory, but might still have some holes in it.

[The S]

Goku is shown training with Kaio-sama. Remember when the South(?) Kaio-sama came and Goku turned SSJ while easily moving with 10 tons on each limb?

But it cannot be proved that's what he did throughout the entire time (was it 6 years? My memory on time sucks) that he was there. Knowing Gokuu, he might have gotten bored and had gone exploring at times, seeking someone else to train with.

[Socar15]

But it cannot be proved that's what he did throughout the entire time (was it 6 years? My memory on time sucks) that he was there. Knowing Gokuu, he might have gotten bored and had gone exploring at times, seeking someone else to train with.

It was 7 years, and yes, Goku undoubtedly went off and met other people. That's probably how he learned the fusion dance, from going and meeting new people. Keep in mind that training we saw him doing was most likely directly a result of his decision to participate in the Budokai on Earth, though I'm sure he did other training as well other times.

[Dayspring]

Kibito wasn't FAR weaker than Gohan's base form simply because Gohan could manage to handle his own in SSJ. Remember: Dabura was as strong as Cell, and Gohan became significntly weaker since Cell's defeat.

However, Kibito took a massive blast when his strength was greatly suppressed, so I'll stop arguing this example.

[the_abberration]

Yeah but still, even if it was a sneak attack, one blast shouldn't have completely blown him to pieces if he were actually stronger.

The dragon had just granted a wish, so I would think he would not have any power to defend from any attack whether he was strong enough to or not.

First of all, Kibito was far weaker than Dabra, considering Kibito couldn't even lift the Z Sword off the ground, which makes him weaker than Gohan's base level.

I don't believe that was the case. Dabura took Kibito by surprise and he was not able to raise his battle power.

If you think back to the Freeza Saga where Vegita wanted Kurririn to wound him, he had to lower his battle power so it could be done.

This would support Dayspring's theory

Kibito wasn't FAR weaker than Gohan's base form simply because Gohan could manage to handle his own in SSJ. Remember: Dabura was as strong as Cell, and Gohan became significntly weaker since Cell's defeat.

However, Kibito took a massive blast when his strength was greatly suppressed, so I'll stop arguing this example.

Also if I recall correctly, Vegita speaks on this saying something along the lines of "I don't know what happened with Kibito. He just bungled it"

[Socar15]

The dragon had just granted a wish, so I would think he would not have any power to defend from any attack whether he was strong enough to or not.

Using magic should have little to do with raw ki power.

I don't believe that was the case. Dabura took Kibito by surprise and he was not able to raise his battle power.

It wouldn't matter. Kibito was at the very most weaker than Gohan's base level. Dabra was at least on Cell's level. That's such a difference in power that it wouldn't matter whether or not Kibito had been surprised or not. Kibito could have been completely prepared with his full power ready, and it would not have made a difference.

Kibito wasn't FAR weaker than Gohan's base form simply because Gohan could manage to handle his own in SSJ.

I’m confused. I don't see what Gohan's SSJ has to do with the difference in power between Kibito and Gohan's base form. Kibito tried with all his might to simply lift the Z Sword off the ground, which he could not. Gohan was at least able to swing the sword around in his base form (as was Goku in his base form). Whether or not the difference between Kibito and Gohan’s base form was large is pretty irrelevant. The fact that he is at all weaker than Gohan’s base form indicates that he is greatly weaker than Dabra.

Remember: Dabura was as strong as Cell, and Gohan became significantly weaker since Cell's defeat.

Yes, Goku did say that he thought Dabra was about as strong as Cell. What many people don't realize though is Goku later refuted his own statement (in Chapter 455) when he actually saw Gohan fight Dabra, in which he stated "He's a lot stronger than I thought". In any case, it wouldn’t make much difference.

However, Kibito took a massive blast when his strength was greatly suppressed

As was Dabra's, not that it mattered.

[the_abberration]

Using magic should have little to do with raw ki power.

I disagree. The dragon was created to grant wishes. Therefore all of his power would be used to grant that wish. If not he would not need to recharge for a year after granting a wish.

Granting a wish for the dragon would be the same as Goku using all of his energy for a Kamehameha.

It wouldn't matter. Kibito was at the very most weaker than Gohan's base level. Dabra was at least on Cell's level. That's such a difference in power that it wouldn't matter whether or not Kibito had been surprised or not. Kibito could have been completely prepared with his full power ready, and it would not have made a difference.

Agian I submit Vegeta's statement

I'm saying Dabra's not as terrible as you think. We saw him outside and we could easily have handled him as long as we dodged his saliva! Kibito was just incompetent, that's all.

I’m confused. I don't see what Gohan's SSJ has to do with the difference in power between Kibito and Gohan's base form. Kibito tried with all his might to simply lift the Z Sword off the ground, which he could not. Gohan was at least able to swing the sword around in his base form (as was Goku in his base form). Whether or not the difference between Kibito and Gohan’s base form was large is pretty irrelevant. The fact that he is at all weaker than Gohan’s base form indicates that he is greatly weaker than Dabra.

Yet Gohan could not remove the Z sword from the stone either or hold it until he went SSJ. I think in Gohan's base form they were equal.

Yes, Goku did say that he thought Dabra was about as strong as Cell. What many people don't realize though is Goku later refuted his own statement (in Chapter 455) when he actually saw Gohan fight Dabra, in which he stated "He's a lot stronger than I thought". In any case, it wouldn’t make much difference.

True, but didn't Vegeta say right after that

He still shouldn't have this much trouble with him... Pathetic.. Gohan was stronger when he was a kid.

meaning Gohan was at SSJ2 at this point and Vegeta (who could only reach SSJ at this point) felt he could take him. The issue was not power it was ability. Gohan had been slacking and Kibito was just imcompetent.

But that's just my opinion.

[Duo]

Lol, Gohan was not Ssj2 when he fought Dabra.

And, shortly after removing the Zeta Sword, Gohan is shown moving the sword about his his base form, and when Kibito tried to pick it up, he couldn't even budge it from the ground.

[the_abberration]

Lol, Gohan was not Ssj2 when he fought Dabra.

How did Vegita know he was not as strong as he was when he fought Cell then? In the Cell saga Vegita did not believe Gohan was that powerful until he went SSJ2.

If Gohan wasn't at SSJ2 Vegita would not be able to make that comparison because Gohan would actually be holding back and not slacking as Goku pointed out. Just my take on it.

And, shortly after removing the Zeta Sword, Gohan is shown moving the sword about his his base form, and when Kibito tried to pick it up, he couldn't even budge it from the ground.

True, but he already had it in hand after he turned SSJ to pull it out of the ground which neither he or Kibito could do at base power.

And he was struggling to do so. Kibito still had to pick it up after it had sunk into the ground. Also what form was Gohan in when he picked it back up?

He also had to train in SSJ form before he could handle it freely in base form.

[Akira]

First off, a small point, Son Goku first devised and used Dragon Fist as a last ditch desperation move against Piccolo Daimao, and he killed Piccolo with it. To my rememberance, that was the only time it was used in the Manga. Goku used it in the Anime against Piccolo Daimao, Hildegarn, Super Android #17, and Ice Shenron.

Second Point >
Gohan, Goku and Vegeta were all capable of Super Saiyan 2 by the time of the 25th World Tournament. What thier varying degrees of power and skill were with it is really what ought to be debated in terms of the what you guys are discussing.

>Gohan went Super Saiyan 2 at the 25th World Tournament, showing his full power to Kibito. He is still fully capable of the power and the form. His base strength and skill are what deteriorated over the years since the fight with Cell. THAT is what Vegeta refers to when he says he Gohan is less than what he was as a kid.

>Goku as we later come to find out was capable of Super Saiyan 3, so we know he is capable of the full extent of what Super Saiyan 2 can do. Plus his base strength must be much larger than it was when they fought Cell due to all his training.

>Vegeta is annoyed by Gohan's inability to quickly dispense of Dabura. He says that He and Goku are both far stronger than Gohan was against Cell. Vegeta had trained hard for the seven years, same as Goku. We see him training in the episodes leading up to the World Tournament, and Bulma even says that's all he's done since Cell. He indeed had become Super Saiyan 2, and surpassed what Gohan had been against Cell by a decent length.

HOWEVER, he was nowhere near the cap of Super Saiyan 2. When Goku fought Yakkon and tapped into that full extent of Super Saiyan 2 briefly to overwhelm the beast, Vegeta sensed it. He knew then his power as Super Saiyan 2 did not match up to Goku. THAT is why he allowed Babidi to control him, to increase what he was. Babidi's magic capped out his Super Saiyan 2 and put him on equal terms with Son Goku. Goku mentions as much during his battle with Vegeta.

I sincerely doubt Vegeta rested after Cell battle and let Gohan prance around the forest as the strongest on earth. I also sincerely doubt he'd claim to be able to destroy Dabura if he was still only capable of Super Saiyan 1. Hell, during the Cell battles Vegeta, Trunks and Goku were all on the verge of reaching Super Saiyan 2. They had all nearly capped out what was doable as Super Saiyan 1.

I did not see Babidi's magic induce transformations in anyone else he charmed. We saw a glimpse of what Spopovitch was before he was charmed. He seemed to get boosted up above normal human strength to powers held by Goku and Tien at the 22nd tournament. He displayed that level of skill, MAYBE. Sure it was enough to overpower regular humans. It was a big jump for him, but not ridiculous. It would be the same for Vegeta, he would increase by a percentage.

Vegeta was already Super Saiyan 2, stronger than Gohan had been against Cell, but not as strong as Goku Super Saiyan 2. The boost he recieves from Babidi to make him Majin Vegeta seems to about as much of a relative boost to Vegeta's strength as the boost was to Spopovitch's strength.

There will always be what if this what if that, and I know full well this debate will never end or die. I wish not to claim this is the answer, but based on the information available to us, to me, it seems the most credible and likely explanation for the events in that part of the story.

[the_abberration]

First off, let me start off by saying you brought a lot of knowledge to the table:

Second Point >Gohan, Goku and Vegeta were all capable of Super Saiyan 2 by the time of the 25th World Tournament. What thier varying degrees of power and skill were with it is really what ought to be debated in terms of the what you guys are discussing.

Actually, in my previous posts I believe I did mention it had nothing to do with power but ability.

Gohan was slacking and Kibito not being a fighter was incompetent.

Gohan went Super Saiyan 2 at the 25th World Tournament, showing his full power to Kibito. He is still fully capable of the power and the form. His base strength and skill are what deteriorated over the years since the fight with Cell. THAT is what Vegeta refers to when he says he Gohan is less than what he was as a kid.

I'm using the manga to respond to this one (might be in the anime too).

I would go for this except after Gohan went SSJ2 for Kibito, Vegeta says "Feh...He was better back when he beat Cell. He's slacked off his training regimen...Peace isn't good for a warrior!" He was definitly refering to his SSJ2 power then.

Goku as we later come to find out was capable of Super Saiyan 3, so we know he is capable of the full extent of what Super Saiyan 2 can do. Plus his base strength must be much larger than it was when they fought Cell due to all his training.

I agree but the debate was over Kibito's power... originally at least.

Vegeta is annoyed by Gohan's inability to quickly dispense of Dabura. He says that He and Goku are both far stronger than Gohan was against Cell. Vegeta had trained hard for the seven years, same as Goku. We see him training in the episodes leading up to the World Tournament, and Bulma even says that's all he's done since Cell. He indeed had become Super Saiyan 2, and surpassed what Gohan had been against Cell by a decent length.

Using anime and manga here.

I disagree. Vegeta was acting annoyed to trick Dabra into having Bobidi turn him. This is what got his attention. My belief is Vegeta was at a wall until Bobidi turned him. This broke the wall and made him SSJ2.

However since Vegeta is not shown as SSJ2 until he is taken over by Bobidi, I can't say that he was not capable to do it beforehand, so I will chalk this up to being my opinion.

HOWEVER, he was nowhere near the cap of Super Saiyan 2. When Goku fought Yakkon and tapped into that full extent of Super Saiyan 2 briefly to overwhelm the beast, Vegeta sensed it. He knew then his power as Super Saiyan 2 did not match up to Goku. THAT is why he allowed Babidi to control him, to increase what he was. Babidi's magic capped out his Super Saiyan 2 and put him on equal terms with Son Goku. Goku mentions as much during his battle with Vegeta.

Manga as reference:

I think it had more to do with Vegeta just wanted a rematch and the powerup was a bonus. Goku says something like "You let Bobidi control you just to fight me" which Vegeta says something like "You're only here for one day and this was my only chance to fight you."

Also knowing Goku, he would have kept his power at a level to match Vegeta regarless. That's how he is.

I sincerely doubt Vegeta rested after Cell battle and let Gohan prance around the forest as the strongest on earth. I also sincerely doubt he'd claim to be able to destroy Dabura if he was still only capable of Super Saiyan 1. Hell, during the Cell battles Vegeta, Trunks and Goku were all on the verge of reaching Super Saiyan 2. They had all nearly capped out what was doable as Super Saiyan 1.

I disagree. Vegeta is a skilled tactician. He would have found a way to defeat Dabra without using SSJ2.

I did not see Babidi's magic induce transformations in anyone else he charmed. We saw a glimpse of what Spopovitch was before he was charmed. He seemed to get boosted up above normal human strength to powers held by Goku and Tenshinhan at the 22nd tournament. He displayed that level of skill, MAYBE. Sure it was enough to overpower regular humans. It was a big jump for him, but not ridiculous. It would be the same for Vegeta, he would increase by a percentage.

Anime reference.

I disagree only because Goku does say his ki increase was unbelievable for someone like him.

Vegeta was already Super Saiyan 2, stronger than Gohan had been against Cell, but not as strong as Goku Super Saiyan 2. The boost he recieves from Babidi to make him Majin Vegeta seems to about as much of a relative boost to Vegeta's strength as the boost was to Spopovitch's strength.

Anime and manga reference:

From a lot of what Vegeta says, I believe he was at a wall to reach SSJ2 until Bobidi turned him. Like Goku's pureness and natural ability helped him reach SSJ2, Vegeta's evil heart helped him achieve SSJ2.

There will always be what if this what if that, and I know full well this debate will never end or die. I wish not to claim this is the answer, but based on the information available to us, to me, it seems the most credible and likely explanation for the events in that part of the story.

I actually did research the manga and anime prior to answering these post, but you are right. Everyone interpets things differently.

[Akira]

I respect our difference of opinion. I think it takes a further stretch of the imagination to think of it in terms of your interpretation, especially Vegeta finding a way to defeat Dabura if he wasn't beyond Gohan. The fact of it is that there is no perfect answer considering that period of time in the story. I agree Vegeta was at a wall, but I think he was at a mid range Super Saiyan 2 having difficulty advancing past it. I also agree to leave that much of the discussion as a difference of interpretation though.

I respect a fellow fan who researches both the Anime and the Manga to make his points. Perhaps we can touch on the matter again sometime.

Second, you are correct that I got tied up on the matter I responded to and forgot to touch on the Kibito thing. Kaioshin said that he and Kabito were far beyond the one called Freeza. They may have even been beyond Piccolo (Highly debatable, with not even me having a set opinion on).

I hold to my Super Saiyan 2 argument as my firm opinion, but the following information is mere hypothosis in regards to the Kibitio discussion and I am open to be swayed by further information/debate:

A> The Sword argument previously mentioned shows a large difference between Kibito and base Gohan.

B> Piccolo stepped down from fighting Kaioshin. Wiether this was out of respect or out of power inferiority cannot be determined. It cannot even be known for certain how close Kabito is or isn't to Kaioshin in terms of power.

If they are in the same realm of Power, and they are both greater than Freeza, that makes them at least as strong as the Super Saiyans were in the Androids Saga. There isn't enough information to really determine where exactly they rate in terms of comparison to other characters of comparable power. It would be my opinion that Kibito is weaker than Gohan (Buu era normal form) though.

[The S]

First off, a small point, Son Goku first devised and used Dragon Fist as a last ditch desperation move against Piccolo Daimao, and he killed Piccolo with it. To my rememberance, that was the only time it was used in the Manga. Goku used it in the Anime against Piccolo Daimao, Hildegarn, Super Android #17, and Ice Shenron.

That wasn't the Ryuken, that was the Oozaruken. Similar, but not quite. And he also used the Ryuken against Yi Xinglong.

[Akira]

I've never heard it called that before. It looked like the same move to me, maybe slight variations of the same move.

I mean we see Vegeta use Final Flash against Recoome and Perfect Cell, but he never actually named the attack until the second use.

Goku has used numerous variations of Kamehameha over the course of the series. The backwards one he used to propel himself to attack Tenshinhan at the 22nd World tournament, he made two small ones and held them in place and launched them at Freeza from underwater. He even fired one from his feet when he fought Piccolo Junior at the 23rd Tournament. Also he fired one at Raditz and changed its direction after firing it!

Not to mention he made combonation attacks with Kamehameha.

Kaioken Kamehameha was used against Vegeta to add explosive power to the blast. Warp Kamehameha was used against Cell and employed the Instant Transmission in conjunction with Kamehameha.

Goku learned most of his techniques from others, but he was a master at improving them, mastering them and improvising with his arsenal. The Dragonfist is one move he crafted himself, and probably fine tuned over time. As far as I knew it was Dragonfist in all those instances I listed.

[Socar15]

I disagree. The dragon was created to grant wishes. Therefore all of his power would be used to grant that wish. If not he would not need to recharge for a year after granting a wish.

Granting a wish for the dragon would be the same as Goku using all of his energy for a Kamehameha.

No, ki and magic operate entirely independently from one another. Just because the Shenron has to recharge his magic does not mean he has to recharge his ki. Babidi is a perfect example of this, he has strong magic, but weak ki. Strong ki isn’t required to perform great feats of magic, which is why Shenron wouldn’t need to be very strong at all, which is also probably why Piccolo Daimao was able to destroy him so easily. Furthermore, Dende was able to give Shenron one (even two by the Buu arc apparently) additional wishes, despite the fact that Dende himself wasn’t nearly as strong as Kamisama.

Agian I submit Vegeta's statement

I'm saying Dabra's not as terrible as you think. We saw him outside and we could easily have handled him as long as we dodged his saliva! Kibito was just incompetent, that's all.

Irrelevant. Vegeta first of all didn’t know how strong Dabra actually was (considering that even Goku said he was mistaken about his power). Second, there’s a good chance Vegeta didn’t realize how weak Kibito was either. And yes, Vegeta still thought they could beat Dabra, but that doesn’t say anything about Kibito’s strength. Vegeta could still be stronger than Dabra, while at the same time Dabra being far above Kibito.

Yet Gohan could not remove the Z sword from the stone either or hold it until he went SSJ. I think in Gohan's base form they were equal.

No, there is a difference between being able to pull the sword out of the mountain, and being able to lift it off the ground. As soon as Gohan pulled it out, he was able to hold it up in his hands. When he handed Kibito the sword, Kibito couldn’t even hold it for a second without dropping it. Plus Goku’s base form was able to swing it around as well. Goku’s base form wasn’t an entire SSJ level ahead of Gohan’s.

True, but didn't Vegeta say right after that

He still shouldn't have this much trouble with him... Pathetic.. Gohan was stronger when he was a kid.

Yes, but this doesn’t really help your argument any. Even if SSJ or SSJ2 (it doesn’t really matter) Gohan should be able to handle him, the fact that Dabra is able to keep up with even a weaker caliber SSJ or SSJ2 still says he’s far above the level of his Gohan’s base, which means he’s also far above Kibito.

and Vegeta (who could only reach SSJ at this point) felt he could take him.

I must disagree. I think Toriyama was solidly trying to imply that Vegeta had already been able to go SSJ2 by this time. There’s first the matter of Vegeta saying that he believed that even though Gohan was stronger at the Cell games, that he believed by the time of the tournament that he had surpassed him (I mean honestly, there’s no way in hell Vegeta wouldn’t been so eager to challenge Gohan if he still couldn’t have gone SSJ2). Second, even if by some freak chance the Majin power up gave Vegeta the power needed to turn SSJ2, the fact that he didn’t actually transform until he was facing down SSJ2 Goku clearly indicates that he already knew HOW to. If the Majin power up had given him the ability to transform, he would’ve already been transformed right after he had received the Majin power up. It’s obvious that he had already experienced the transformation before. Even the Daizenshuu stated that Vegeta had managed to reach SSJ2 shortly after the Cell Games.

The issue was not power it was ability. Gohan had been slacking and Kibito was just imcompetent.

I’m sorry, but maybe Kibito was incompetent, maybe he wasn’t. But the difference in their power was like SSJ2 Gohan vs a Cell Junior. Dabra being at LEAST on Cell’s level and Kibito being at MOST close to Gohan’s base level clearly indicates Dabra being far above Kibito. I think Vegeta simply overestimated Kibito. I mean come on, Kibito was closely watching Dabra as Bibidi and Pui Pui went back inside the ship, and then Dabra flies straight at Kibito. What else is there for Kibito to do? The fact that Kibito couldn’t even track Dabra’s movements further implies their difference in power.

And he was struggling to do so. Kibito still had to pick it up after it had sunk into the ground.

Sunk into the ground just a bit. Gohan had to pull this thing out of the freaking mountain with almost the entire blade still inside. There’s a bit of a difference there. There was nothing actually blocking the swords path upward. Furthermore, when Gohan was trying to pull it out of the mountain, he was having to compete against the entire weight of the sword (considering he was having to pull it straight upwards). Kibito on the other hand was only trying to raise part of the sword off the ground, and couldn’t. And even so, Kibito couldn’t even have it handed to him.

Also what form was Gohan in when he picked it back up?

It isn’t shown what form he used to pick it back up since Gohan and Kaioshin are too busy being shocked by Kibito making an utter fool of himself.

He also had to train in SSJ form before he could handle it freely in base form.

I believe Toriyama may have made a mistake by having Gohan being shown in that ONE scene using SSJ while having the Z Sword (it was the scene where Gohan senses Goku going SSJ3). Consider what you’re implying here. You’re basically flat out stating that Goku’s base form close to the level of Gohan’s SSJ??? No way. Keep in mind it wouldn’t be the first time Toriyama had made a mistake like this. I mean, otherwise Gohan’s base form eventually surpassed his own previous SSJ power, and that is flat out absurd.

I disagree. Vegeta is a skilled tactician. He would have found a way to defeat Dabra without using SSJ2.

Tell me, when was the last time Vegeta was able to defeat an opponent that was stronger than himself? Zarbon, Recoome, Freeza, Android 18, Perfect Cell, and Kid Buu all show contrary to your belief.


In any case, let me try to clear something up. Most of this discussion is pointless, because my whole original point is that using the Dabra/Kibito incident in comparison to the Piccolo Daimao/Shenron incident is flawed (to which Dayspring did realize) simply because the amount of power difference between Dabra and Kibito is so great that the actual reason (whether power or ability or whatever) why Dabra was able to destroy Kibito so quickly is entirely irrelevant.

[the_abberration]

Yes, this has gotten off the beaten path. I'll try to make this my last post.

No, ki and magic operate entirely independently from one another. Just because the Shenron has to recharge his magic does not mean he has to recharge his ki. Babidi is a perfect example of this, he has strong magic, but weak ki. Strong ki isn’t required to perform great feats of magic, which is why Shenron wouldn’t need to be very strong at all, which is also probably why Piccolo Daimao was able to destroy him so easily. Furthermore, Dende was able to give Shenron one (even two by the Buu arc apparently) additional wishes, despite the fact that Dende himself wasn’t nearly as strong as Kamisama.

Okay the discussion was Shenron was not as powerful as Piccolo which is why he was able to be destroyed correct?

Manga as reference.

Shenron (when wishing back Goku from the dead): I was made by a god. I cannot grant a wish that surpasses the power of god.

Kami had more power than Piccolo = Shenron had more power than Piccolo.

Piccolo (after destroying Shenron): Shenlong is dead!! Now nothing can threaten my life ever again!!

Now if Shenron was not more powerful then Piccolo he would not need to feel threatened by him.

The dragon has power not ki. I base this on the fact no one ever senses his ki.

Kami has power and ki. Ki is affected by power consumption. (i.e. a character fires a strong blast their ki drops. they fight a long time their ki drops. Goku gets hungry his ki drops.)

Kami at full power and ki = Dragon at full power before granting a wish
(If Kami could take that blast without blocking it so should the dragon, if not he's toast)

Kami after using all his power thereby dropping his ki = Dragon without power after granting a wish
(If Kami could take that blast without blocking it so should the dragon, if not he's toast)

[Dayspring]

First off, a small point, Son Goku first devised and used Dragon Fist as a last ditch desperation move against Piccolo Daimao, and he killed Piccolo with it. To my rememberance, that was the only time it was used in the Manga. Goku used it in the Anime against Piccolo Daimao, Hildegarn, Super Android #17, and Ice Shenron.

That wasn't the Ryuken, that was the Oozaruken. Similar, but not quite. And he also used the Ryuken against Yi Xinglong.

Did it have an official name? But yeah, the Ryuken releases a dragon that wraps around its opponent. The "Oozaruken" showed that Goku's Oozaru force got concentrated into his punch; no dragon was seen.

[Xyex]

Oh boy, I knew I should have been keeping up more with this thread. There's several things in here now that I have to respond to...

Kibito tried with all his might to simply lift the Z Sword off the ground, which he could not.

I'd still like to know why people seem to think that lifting/using the Z Sword depends entirely on the users strength? The Z Sword is something of a holy weapon, is it not? Would it not then stand that pure energy, coupled with strength, is what would allow one to pull the Z Sword from the rock and actually be able to lift it?

Yes, Goku did say that he thought Dabra was about as strong as Cell. What many people don't realize though is Goku later refuted his own statement (in Chapter 455) when he actually saw Gohan fight Dabra, in which he stated "He's a lot stronger than I thought".

Goku thought that Dabura was around the power of Perfect Cell originally. After the fighting started, however, he realized that he must be at least as strong as Super Perfect, if not stronger. At least, that's my take on things from what I've seen and heard.

Lol, Gohan was not Ssj2 when he fought Dabra.

Ah, yes he was. Think about this for a second, use some common sense. Gohan is weaker than he was at the Cell Games. And yet, Dabura, who is stronger than Super Perfect Cell was actually fighting on somewhat even terms with him, not kicking his ass around like a rag doll. And you're saying this is happening with Gohan in SSJ? Ah... no. On top of that, Goku would have no doubt commented about Gohan not transforming, wondered why and all that. So ya, you're theroy is null.

Anime and manga reference:

From a lot of what Vegeta says, I believe he was at a wall to reach SSJ2 until Bobidi turned him. Like Goku's pureness and natural ability helped him reach SSJ2, Vegeta's evil heart helped him achieve SSJ2.

I have to go with Akira on this one. I originally thought the same as you, that it was going Majin that gave him the transformation, but he took the fact that Goku had reached it way too calmly for that. Plus his insistance that he could do better against Dabura. You could argue that it was a show, so he could get Babidi's attention, but I doubt it, as Goku didn't seem to think Vegeta couldn't do it.

And, going by Vegeta's own statements during his fight with Goku, that leads me further to believe that he was only after a boost to his power, not access to the transformation. He was merely wanting to close the gap between them. Add to this Vegeta's own personality. He's not one to take help from others normally, and while returning to the way he was was one of the reasons he did it, I doubt he'd have used the Majin power for the purpose of gaining SSJ2.

[Socar15]

Okay the discussion was Shenron was not as powerful as Piccolo which is why he was able to be destroyed correct?

Um, sort of. What we were discussing were what he meant by “Shenron being as a powerful as Kamisama (or Dende)”. Duo made the comment that since Shenron was stated to have equal power to its creator, that since Dende was fairly weak, Goku training with Shenron wouldn’t make much sense. Since Duo made was discussing training, it was apparent that he wasn’t talking about magical energy or other special powers, but was in fact talking about ki. I therefore replied that I didn’t believe that were the case since if Shenron had equal ki to Kamisama, he shouldn’t have been destroyed by Piccolo Daimao so easily. That’s when he mentioned the idea that it was a sneak attack, and that’s when all the other discussions started. My point was never that Shenron’s power (and by power I’m talking about magical energy) is weaker than its creator. Since you even stated later in your post that you didn’t believe Shenron had ki (something which I would agree with you on considering that, why would Goku have bothered in the Buu saga to try and find Bulma’s ki (I’m referring to when Bulma accidentally makes a wish to bring back the people Majin Vegeta killed and Goku has to go and stop them from using too many wishes). Goku even said it was hard to find Bulma’s ki, so why wouldn’t he have just tried to find Shenron’s ki and teleport to him (after all, they didn’t know for a fact who was using the balls, Goku just somewhat made the obvious decision)).

Manga as reference.

Shenron (when wishing back Goku from the dead): I was made by a god. I cannot grant a wish that surpasses the power of god.

I believe he is clearly referring to magical energy (you know, the stuff that actually gives Shenron the ability to grant wishes, and in the context of what power is actually referring to).

Kami had more power than Piccolo = Shenron had more power than Piccolo.

Kamisama and Piccolo Daimao don’t fight people with magic. Therefore this comparison is meaningless. Unless you’re dealing with people like Dabra, Babidi or Buu, ki is really the only factor that matters when comparing “power”.

Piccolo (after destroying Shenron): Shenlong is dead!! Now nothing can threaten my life ever again!!

Now if Shenron was not more powerful then Piccolo he would not need to feel threatened by him.

Piccolo Daimao wasn’t afraid of Shenron directly. He was talking about someone using Shenron to reverse his wish or possibly use a wish for Piccolo Daimao to be destroyed.

The dragon has power not ki. I base this on the fact no one ever senses his ki.

Agreed, though you should probably come up with a term a little more specific than “power”.

Kami has power and ki. Ki is affected by power consumption. (i.e. a character fires a strong blast their ki drops. they fight a long time their ki drops. Goku gets hungry his ki drops.)

Actually no. Goku getting hungry does not make his spiritual energy decrease. While it may make his body weaker (and we’re talking about normal bodily functions here), the amount of ki he has would be pretty much unaffected. Now if he were starving himself to the point where his body actually is being harmed, then maybe then it would lose ki.

Kami at full power and ki = Dragon at full power before granting a wish
(If Kami could take that blast without blocking it so should the dragon, if not he's toast)

Kami after using all his power thereby dropping his ki = Dragon without power after granting a wish
(If Kami could take that blast without blocking it so should the dragon, if not he's toast)

Again, no matter how much magical energy (or “power” as you refer to it) Shenron has, if he doesn’t have ki, he won’t be able to defend himself against a ki attack (unless he has the energy equivalent of ki such as what the Androids used. We were talking about ki, you apparently were talking about something else.

I'd still like to know why people seem to think that lifting/using the Z Sword depends entirely on the users strength?

Because that’s what Kibito and Kaioshin said in the manga (well ok, not “entirely” but they never implied that there were any other factors involved).

The Z Sword is something of a holy weapon, is it not?

Uh, no not really (which is why it broke). The Z Sword was simply something that a villain imprisoned Rou Dai Kaioshin within.

Would it not then stand that pure energy, coupled with strength, is what would allow one to pull the Z Sword from the rock and actually be able to lift it?

That really doesn’t have anything to do with my argument that Kibito couldn’t even hold the Z Sword up for a second, where as Gohan actually could. Kibito had pure energy as well, it was the strength factor (which was what I was saying) that made the difference.

Goku thought that Dabura was around the power of Perfect Cell originally. After the fighting started, however, he realized that he must be at least as strong as Super Perfect, if not stronger. At least, that's my take on things from what I've seen and heard.

Well, it is debatable whether Goku was referring to Perfect Cell or Super Perfect Cell originally (considering all he said was Cell, and the “Super” is a fan add on anyway). But yeah I more or less agree.

I have to go with Akira on this one. I originally thought the same as you, that it was going Majin that gave him the transformation, but he took the fact that Goku had reached it way too calmly for that. Plus his insistance that he could do better against Dabura. You could argue that it was a show, so he could get Babidi's attention, but I doubt it, as Goku didn't seem to think Vegeta couldn't do it.

And, going by Vegeta's own statements during his fight with Goku, that leads me further to believe that he was only after a boost to his power, not access to the transformation. He was merely wanting to close the gap between them. Add to this Vegeta's own personality. He's not one to take help from others normally, and while returning to the way he was was one of the reasons he did it, I doubt he'd have used the Majin power for the purpose of gaining SSJ2.

I must agree with you as well. And actually, after looking through the manga, there is actually a quote which shows direct proof that Vegeta had already reached SSJ2. In chapter 452, Goku asks Gohan about his training. Before Gohan can give a real reply, Vegeta chimes in and says that he has been slacking off and that both he and Goku have probably surpassed Gohan by now. Now remember, Vegeta witnessed Gohan’s SSJ2 in front of Kibito back at the Budokai. So obviously Vegeta was implying that he has surpassed Gohan’s SSJ2.

[Akira]

That and Vegeta also admits to Goku during thier battle that he allowed himself to be controlled as a means to close the gap in thier power. He never says anything about allowing himself to be controlled to reach the "next level" or anything else.

I honestly believe the whole thing about Vegeta not becoming Super Saiyan 2 until the Majin power up was a fan perpetuated myth across the internet that was misunderstood by poorly translated fan-subs back in the day. I believed it too when I read about it as a teenager back in 1997 or so, but when I actually saw the episodes myself for the first time, I said to myself "Wait a minute, he was already Super Saiyan 2..."

Now that I have the coresponding Manga volumes, my strength in this belief is only more so than it ever was before. Thanks for the support on the opinion guys.