SSJ Goku vs Freeza power difference

[coola]

Since i`ve readed Daizenshuu power levels, i begun to wonder, why Goku had such hard time with Freeza, despite around 30 million difference, recenly i realised, i completly forgot about "condition" of both Goku and Freeza, when final part of their battle started, before transformation.
Goku stated, that because of Kaioken 20X Kamehameha, he lost half of his power, not including damage he took from battle.
Freeza as well surely got weaker by Genki-dama, even if, how he stated, a little bit, before he start using 100%, he also got beat in his 50% power. By result, Both Goku and Freeza were evenly strong, but, by result of his body not being used to 100% power, Goku gained upper hand.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Who says that a power of 120 million can't fight evenly with a power of 150 million, though?

[Fox666]

Not that it matters, the fight is very short in the manga.

[OzzyApu]

Who says that a power of 120 million can't fight evenly with a power of 150 million, though?

Feels iffy when you consider how Goku at around 8000 tried to take on 18000 and was getting knocked around. Or go back even further, ~400 vs ~1300 against Raditz. Both he an Piccolo were tooled. Those were differences in the hundreds and thousands, now just stretch that crap out even more. Then again, I'm probably missing the real comparative differences in these millions and equating them incorrectly. Or not, and Toriyama probably just shot himself in the foot introducing these power levels in the first place.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Who says that a power of 120 million can't fight evenly with a power of 150 million, though?

Feels iffy when you consider how Goku at around 8000 tried to take on 18000 and was getting knocked around. Or go back even further, ~400 vs ~1300 against Raditz. Both he an Piccolo were tooled. Those were differences in the hundreds and thousands, now just stretch that crap out even more. Then again, I'm probably missing the real comparative differences in these millions and equating them incorrectly. Or not, and Toriyama probably just shot himself in the foot introducing these power levels in the first place.

It's obvious that Toriyama didn't give a crap about any of that or had any set "rules" to which he'd abide by. And there's more to winning a fight than power.

The fight was pretty short anyway, and if you really want to twist it into making sense in your eyes, you could simply say that Gokuu was holding back to humiliate him further and/or was initially distracted because he wanted Gohan to escape on the spaceship with Piccolo and Bulma as quickly as possible. We even see him thinking about it in a thought bubble.

[Super Vegetto]

Since i`ve readed Daizenshuu power levels, i begun to wonder, why Goku had such hard time with Freeza, despite around 30 million difference, recenly i realised, i completly forgot about "condition" of both Goku and Freeza, when final part of their battle started, before transformation.
Goku stated, that because of Kaioken 20X Kamehameha, he lost half of his power, not including damage he took from battle.
Freeza as well surely got weaker by Genki-dama, even if, how he stated, a little bit, before he start using 100%, he also got beat in his 50% power. By result, Both Goku and Freeza were evenly strong, but, by result of his body not being used to 100% power, Goku gained upper hand.

Goku yust whanted Frieza to do everything he has yust to be sure who is the strongest. In other words Goku letrs Frieza having a shoot and also because Gohan and others didnt leave planet. After everyone leavs planet Goku stomps Frieza in almost every picture in manga. Goku says to Frieza if he goes to full power in that condition that he will get strain on body
( big muscles ).
Because of strain Freeza's power started to decrese during battle. SSJ form is not like Kaio-ken so Goku didnt put so much strain even if he was damaged because of transformation. They never lost powers they got from begining.

[Kaboom]

The short answer is that there's no set rules as to what is or isn't too big of a power gap to put up a fight. Freeza was strong enough to fight back against Super Saiyan Goku, even if he didn't have any hope of actually winning.

[dprez]

I always considered Freeza to be around 140 million, therefore him being able to match Ssj Goku makes sense.

[Perfect]

Because Goku and Freeza weren't at 120/150 million. I don't see how, considering how badly wounded they were. Goku could barley stand up when he went SSJ, there's no damn way he was at 3 million battle power. Freeza was also severely weakened from the Genki-Dama, so there's no way that he was 120 million maxed.

If I had to take a guess, I'd say Goku was around 40-50 million and Freeza was around 38-48 million. I think the Daizenshuu battle powers should be treated as what their battle powers would be if they were at full strength. If someone has a theory explaining why Freeza and Goku would be at full strength, by all means present it.

[Fox666]

We can measure how much pain Goku inflicted on Freeza:



Now we use the standard formula to determine someone's battle power:




This provides proof beyond doubt that the Daizenshuu is correct in providing a proportion of 125% for Goku compared to Freeza.

[dprez]

Goku seamed to be at full strength, but Freeza was in a weakened full power state for sure.

I find it funny having Ssj Goku and 100% Freeza so weak as you do, when prior they were both already fighting with power over 50 million. Goku's x20 Kamehameha was easily over 50 million, and Freeza was using 50% of his power, which should range from around 60-70 million.

Yea there is the 50x multiplier and all, and Goku was weak as hell when he transformed, but it's ridiculous having Ssj Goku and 100% Freeza that weak. There is that theory that Goku's max base power is what was multiplied by 50x when he transformed, and not his weakened "post Genki-dama/beating by Freeza" power. I don't know, but 150 mil vs. 140 mil is what I got in my book.

[Fox666]

First of all, Freeza and Goku are by no means weaker than before. The manga is clear that their strength only increased.

Chapter: 321 (DBZ 127), P6.2
Context: Freeza still powering up
Gohan: “To top it off, it looks like Freeza’s ki is getting bigger again…! What’s happening!?”

For Goku, witnessing Kuririn's death and transforming in Super Saiyan had an effect similar to an adrenaline rush, which allowed him to keep fighting. As of Freeza, it seems that using only a small part of his power maintained his reserves of energy.

Chapter: 325 (DBZ 131), P8.2-5
Context: after Goku and full-power Freeza have fought for a while
Goku: “I quit. [ ] As a backlash from you using your 100% power, you’ve passed your peak, and your ki is steadily dropping…I’m starting to think that there’s no point in fighting any more than this…”

[Perfect]

We can measure how much pain Goku inflicted on Freeza:



Now we use the standard formula to determine someone's battle power:




This provides proof beyond doubt that the Daizenshuu is correct in providing a proportion of 125% for Goku compared to Freeza.

30 centimeters is entirely an estimation, seeing the art style weighs things out differently. That wasn't clever or funny, just obnoxious.

Goku seamed to be at full strength, but Freeza was in a weakened full power state for sure.

I find it funny having Ssj Goku and 100% Freeza so weak as you do, when prior they were both already fighting with power over 50 million. Goku's x20 Kamehameha was easily over 50 million, and Freeza was using 50% of his power, which should range from around 60-70 million.

Yea there is the 50x multiplier and all, and Goku was weak as hell when he transformed, but it's ridiculous having Ssj Goku and 100% Freeza that weak. There is that theory that Goku's max base power is what was multiplied by 50x when he transformed, and not his weakened "post Genki-dama/beating by Freeza" power. I don't know, but 150 mil vs. 140 mil is what I got in my book.

I made them a tad weaker than I intended, but doing the math as you can see below, they're still considerably weaker. Freeza at 50% was 60 million. There's no implication of that theory working, because Goku would just have to go SSJ to regain his strength each time, it makes no sense whatsoever. You can say Freeza was at 140 million, but there's not a single implication of that either, therefore he wasn't at 140 million and holds about as much weight as saying Boo was a part time mascot for a baseball team in space.

irst of all, Freeza and Goku are by no means weaker than before. The manga is clear that their strength only increased.

Chapter: 321 (DBZ 127), P6.2
Context: Freeza still powering up
Gohan: “To top it off, it looks like Freeza’s ki is getting bigger again…! What’s happening!?”

For Goku, witnessing Kuririn's death and transforming in Super Saiyan had an effect similar to an adrenaline rush, which allowed him to keep fighting. As of Freeza, it seems that using only a small part of his power maintained his reserves of energy.

Chapter: 325 (DBZ 131), P8.2-5
Context: after Goku and full-power Freeza have fought for a while
Goku: “I quit. [ ] As a backlash from you using your 100% power, you’ve passed your peak, and your ki is steadily dropping…I’m starting to think that there’s no point in fighting any more than this…”

You're basing that entirely on interpretation. Bigger, "again". That means Freeza's chi is increasing once more, meaning Freeza had strength in reserve. It doesn't mean he's surpassing his already established strength before being injured, that just wouldn't make sense. In the second comment, Goku can merely be referring to Freeza's peak on top of whatever amount of damage he received prior, which is the most likely case.

If Freeza is severely injured at a battle power of 60 million, there's no way he'd suddenly jump to 120 million as "100%". Let's look at this step by step.
1. Freeza has a battle power of 60 million.
2. Freeza is severely injured.
3. Freeza is probably around 30-40 million.
4. Freeza has another 60 million in reserve probably, maybe less.
5. Freeza has around 70-90 million at 100% of his battle-worn state.

There's not a single reason for Freeza to have received a recovery that large. The same goes for Goku. Goku can't even stand up on his own, so Goku was probably around 1.6-2 million.

1.6*50=80
2*50=100

You're trying to rationalize something and it isn't working, it's a projection of what their battle powers would be. That's the only way it works. It's well established that Goku's base is 3 million and Freeza's 50% is 60 million, that means you can't argue that 150 and 120 million are just their powers with injuries taken into consideration. In order for these numbers to work outside of projections, they'd need to give Goku and Freeza a Senzu Bean.

[Fox666]

30 centimeters is entirely an estimation, seeing the art style weighs things out differently. That wasn't clever or funny, just obnoxious.

If you don't believe, check out the formulas and try to calculate for yourself.

If Freeza is severely injured at a battle power of 60 million, there's no way he'd suddenly jump to 120 million as "100%". Let's look at this step by step.

That question is entirely pointless. Technically you waste energy on all your activities. If Vegeta was at 18,000 when he arrived on Earth, after flying for 30 minutes before meeting Piccolo and Gohan it dropped to 17,900.

3. Freeza is probably around 30-40 million.

How is it "probably"? That's entirely speculative. We don't know how much their strength changed.

But if you was to ask me, the series doesn't seems to suggest that it was much of a difference.

[Perfect]

1. You've calculated nothing to begin with. There's no way to tell the length of something for certain in something that's stylistically changing throughout the story. Not to mention that that has nothing to do with battle power.

2. I wasn't asking a question or proposing a rhetorical inquiry, so you don't have any idea what you're talking about here. There's a significant difference between Freeza being beaten into the ground/losing a heavy portion of his strength from a super strong attack than flying for 30 minutes. Your relationship between flying and Freeza getting his ass kicked, is not only a malformed comparison, but absolutely stupid at heart to even bring into consideration, as it isn't pertinent to this context.

3. Probably is an estimate, seeing that he had to have lost a considerable amount of power. Goku for sure had, seeing he could barley stand up. Freeza on the other hand was half blind, covered in wounds, extremely pissed off and noticeably weaker. It is speculation, via the number itself, but Freeza getting weaker is set in stone.

[Fox666]

1. You've calculated nothing to begin with. There's no way to tell the length of something for certain in something that's stylistically changing throughout the story. Not to mention that that has nothing to do with battle power.

Apparenty you missed the point of my joke. I estimating it to be 30cm is as valid as you estimating Freeza to be at 40 million because of injuries, or someone else estimating Nappa to be at 7,000.

2. I wasn't asking a question or proposing a rhetorical inquiry, so you don't have any idea what you're talking about here. There's a significant difference between Freeza being beaten into the ground/losing a heavy portion of his strength from a super strong attack than flying for 30 minutes. Your relationship between flying and Freeza getting his ass kicked, is not only a malformed comparison, but absolutely stupid at heart to even bring into consideration, as it isn't pertinent to this context.

Aren't you being too rude for nothing?

You assume that the strength Freeza lost through the Genki-Dama is more relevant than miscellaneous activies. It's entirely plausible that the Daizenshuu choose to ignore the drop in Freeza's power the same way you would ignore how much Vegeta lost by flying 30 minutes.

The question is if the power someone lost is relevant or can be ignored. At least as far the official sources goes (Daizenshuu 7) it doesn't seems that the Genki-Dama effects on Freeza is worth to be listed.

3. Probably is an estimate, seeing that he had to have lost a considerable amount of power. Goku for sure had, seeing he could barley stand up. Freeza on the other hand was half blind, covered in wounds, extremely pissed off and noticeably weaker. It is speculation, via the number itself, but Freeza getting weaker is set in stone.

Like I said before, of course he was weaker. It's virtually impossible to be at 100% since you comsume energy while talking, breathing, etc. The question is if it is relevant or not.

[Perfect]

Apparenty you missed the point of my joke. I estimating it to be 30cm is as valid as you estimating Freeza to be at 40 million because of injuries.

Isn't a joke supposed to be funny? Because its attempt was nearly as soft as screaming it's "Over 9000" at everything.

Aren't you being too rude for nothing?

You assume that the strength Freeza lost through the Genki-Dama is more relevant than miscellaneous activies. It's entirely plausible that the Daizenshuu choose to ignore that drop in power the same way.

The question is if the power he lost is relevant or can be ignored. At least as far the official sources goes (Daizenshuu 7) it doesn't seems that the Genki-Dama effects on Freeza is worth to be listed.

Rude? No, not all. I merely used the designated adjectives that apply, I'd imagine you'd have to be pretty emotionally sensitive to view me as rude seeing that there's nothing of the sort present, other than what I'd presume as about as polite as I can be with such lethargically thought out content.

The Daiznsehuu did ignore the drops in power, otherwise their battle powers wouldn't be projected as 120 or 150 million. Worth being listed? It's clearly either an error or simply a projection of what their battle powers would be. Unless you're saying that it it's worth mentioning that Tenshinhan fought #19, even though he didn't.

Like I said before, of course he was weaker. It's virtually impossible to be at 100% since you comsume energy while talking, breathing, etc.

Again, there's a significant difference between getting beaten into the ground/being hit with an extremely powerful attack and naturalism. The equivalent would probably be something like Goku not eating for 15 days, not drinking water in 1-2 days, staying awake for a week straight and flying for the majority of the time while sending out continual chi blasts; it just doesn't work.

[Fox666]

Isn't a joke supposed to be funny? Because its attempt was nearly as soft as screaming it's "Over 9000" at everything.

Excuse me, but I don't see what that change.

Rude? No, not all. I merely used the designated adjectives that apply, I'd imagine you'd have to be pretty emotionally sensitive to view me as rude seeing that there's nothing of the sort present, other than what I'd presume as about as polite as I can be with such lethargically thought out content.

Rudeness is a matter of disrespectfulness. It doesn't change if you think it's deserved or not.

It seems you have pissed a lot of people on this forum, and I am quite sure they would like to call you stupid and say that's the designated adjectives for you. But they don't do that because of there are rules in this community.

It's clearly either an error

And what's that based on? A lot of people claim that Nappa at 7,000 is an error. But there is no other official source telling the opposite.

Look at it from my perspective: I can believe in either the Daizenshuu 7, or you who say Freeza at 100% was 38,000,000.

Again, there's a significant difference between getting beaten into the ground and being hit with an extremely powerful attack.

Apparently according to the official sources it's not, both events are not worth to note.

[Perfect]

Excuse me, but I don't see what that change.

It changes the fact you failed to execute a joke properly. It also shows that it has nothing to do with topic and that you were just being obnoxious and "rude" by your definition, which would incline you to be a hypocrite.

Rudeness is a matter of disrespectfulness. It doesn't change if you think it's deserved or not.

It seems you have pissed a lot of people on this forum, and I am quite sure they would like to call you stupid and say that's the designated adjectives for you. But they don't do that because of there are rules in this community.

I don't recall saying anything was "deserved". I don't respect you at all, but I also don't disrespect you, because I don't care enough to do either. I wasn't calling "you" stupid, I was calling the idea of it being pertinent to this context and applying its own mechanics to the conversation as stupid, which is the equivalent to saying "lacking common sense". (The very definition of the word in question). I would also like to see over half of the forum call me stupid for absolutely no reason. I've had mechanics I've proposed be called stupid, but with good reason I've conceited or retorted, because the mechanics I proposed were either "stupid" or "not stupid". The fact of the matter is, I don't know why you're bothering to go so far off topic, you'd have to be incredibly sensitive about something so arbitrary, it makes literally no sense.

Edit: If someone gets pissed off over an internet DBZ forum, then they need therapy.

And what's that based on? A lot of people claim that Nappa at 7,000 is an error. But there is no other official source telling the opposite.

Look at it from my perspective: I can believe in either the Daizenshuu 7, or you who say Freeza at 100% was 38,000,000.

The official source is the source. The manga dictates Freeza and Goku were weaker by the time Freeza emerged as a survivor of the Genki-Dama. There's absolutely nothing to suggest they magically regained their powers. I don't know where Nappa's stated to be that strong and I also don't know where he's stated to have a battle power of 4,000. This is as simple as Tenshinhan fighting #19, when he didn't.

Apparently according to the official sources it's not, both events are not worth to note.

That's subjective, there's the entire possibility of it being an error due to whatever reason.

[Fox666]

I don't recall saying anything was "deserved". I don't respect you at all, but I also don't disrespect you, because I don't care enough to do either. I wasn't calling "you" stupid, I was calling the idea of it being pertinent to this context and applying its own mechanics to the conversation as stupid

Hmm, I am not buying that. It sounds to be me the same as "I am not offending your mother, I am only saying her job is vulger".

You say I lack common sense, but my argument in entirely valid. It's not worth to mention that Vegeta lost some energy by flying for 30 minutes. Based on the Daizenshuu it's not worth to take in account Freeza's injuries.

The manga dictates Freeza and Goku were weaker by the time Freeza emerged as a survivor of the Genki-Dama. There's absolutely nothing to suggest they magically regained their powers.

And that very lost in power supposedly is not worth to mention. The whole concept of battle power is inaccurate, since 120,000,000 is a rounder number.

That's subjective, there's the entire possibility of it being an error due to whatever reason.

Like I said, I choose to believe on the Daizenshuu rather than your word, even if there is some remote possibility of you being right.