SSJ Goku vs Freeza power difference

[Perfect]

You are overreacting. And aren't you talking about not going off-topic?

No, I'm merely stating my sentiments on the subject matter. I'm also merely replying to what you're saying, anything off topic is within your own grasp.

Hmm, I am not buying that. It sounds to be me the same as "I am not offending your mother, I am only saying her job is vulger".

You say I lack common sense, but my argument in entirely valid. It's not worth to mention that Vegeta lost some energy by flying for 30 minutes. Based on the Daizenshuu it's not worth to mention Freeza's injuries.

If I stated that your "mother's job" was "vulgar" then it odds are it probably was vulgar. Granted I don't find that rude in the slightest, a lot of people do have vulgar jobs. Again, I'm saying your idea lacks common sense when pertaining to the theatrics of the mechanics at hand. Stop confusing the two. Your argument isn't valid, because it's set in stone they did lose a considerable amount of energy from beating themselves to death. Here's the difference, which you don't seem to understand for some reason:
Vegeta losing energy flying, a very vague amount, is not pertinent to the story, as it would be a very low number. Freeza and Goku lost a considerable amount of power, in which Goku is unable to stand on his own. That is pertinent to the story. Why? Because if he can't stand, he can't fight, if he can't fight, he dies. There's a significant difference. Your argument lacks common sense on not only those grounds, but something being "worth" and viewed by the editors of the books isn't valid. Because you have no idea what they considered "worthy", or what they rushed on, or what they put little effort into.

The lost in power is just not worth to mention. The whole concept of battle power is inaccurate, since 120,000,000 is a rounder number.

See above, because you're in no position to say what's not worth being mentioned. There's plenty of explanations to fill that void, including it's an error. So what if it's a round number? Maybe that's literally how chi jumps? We don't know if it goes in interwoven increases/decreases of 1 or 2 or 3, or .1 or .3.

Like I said, I choose to believe on the Daizenshuu rather than your word, even if there is some remote possibility of you being right.

Cool, you'd rather rely on a blatant contradiction, good to know. I'll make a mental note of that.

[Fox666]

Vegeta losing energy flying, a very vague amount, is not pertinent to the story, as it would be a very low number. Freeza and Goku lost a considerable amount of power

According to you. But I won't go by that only because you said so.

See above, because you're in no position to say what's not worth being mentioned. There's plenty of explanations to fill that void, including it's an error. So what if it's a round number? Maybe that's literally how chi jumps? We don't know if it goes in interwoven increases/decreases of 1 or 2 or 3, or .1 or .3.

You lost me, sir.

The thing is, 120,000,000 has never been an accurate description. The japanese version writting out using the Kanjis Man or Oku doesn't help either. It could be closer 129,000,000 to begin with, and there is a lot of room for change there without changing the 120,000,000 description.

Cool, you'd rather rely on a blatant contradiction, good to know. I'll make a mental note of that.

It's a blatant contradiction in your oppinion. But I don't have the obligation to believe that it really is.

And again, my other option is to believe on <random internet dude> (aka you). So I don't think I made the wrong choice.

[Perfect]

According to you. But I won't go by that only because you said so.

According to the story. Explain any implication that describes the relationship of Vegeta's lost energy hindering him, as opposed to it hindering both Goku and Freeza.

You lost me, sir.

The thing is, 120,000,000 has never been an accurate description. The japanese version writting out using the Kanjis Man or Oku doesn't help either. It could be closer 129,000,000 to begin with, and there is a lot of room for change there.

I still don't see what the number being "round" has to do with anything, since we don't know the increase relationship.

It's a blatant contradiction according to you. I don't have the obligation to believe that it really is.

Goku/Freeza - lose energy. Source: manga
Goku/Freeza's injuries never disappear. Source: manga
Goku/Freeza retain all their energy somehow despite never being implied or shown. Source: supplementary material
Result: Blatant contradiction.

And again, my other option is to believe on <random internet dude> (aka you). So I don't think I made the wrong choice.

Yes, and the RIAA never lost Elvis Presley's or the Jackson 5's sales. Official sources are right 100% of the time. Also don't forget that Tenshinhan clearly fought #19. Oh and all of Herms' translations are invalid too, since he's a random internet "dude".

[Fox666]

Nothing in the manga tells us how much Freeza lost in power.

Your numbers for Freeza like 38,000,000 or 48,000,000 don't have more basis than 90,333,333 or 1,000,000 for Freeza at 100%.

[Perfect]

Nothing tells us the number, sure. However, it tells us he lost a lot of power. A lot may be subjective in some lights, but in no way does it amount to 120 million (A), which would be his 50% * 2 (60 million). So if 60 million is half of his maximum (B), but he loses a lot of power from 60 million (C), C minus B cannot equal A.

[Fox666]

119,999,999 is fine to you?

[Perfect]

119,999,999 is fine to you?

Hm, not quite. The implication is a large unknown drop. While C minus B cannot equal A, C can't be minuscule in regrades to losses.

[Fox666]

But these are meaningless words. They are by no means objective. That's why I recommend to never estimate someone's battle power looking at the manga pages, since the battle power are a flawed system that are more artistic than anything.

[Perfect]

But these are meaningless words. They are by no means objective. That's why I recommend to never estimate someone's battle power looking at the manga pages, since the battle power are a flawed system that are more artistic than anything.

I don't see how that pertains to C not being minuscule in regards to losses. It's fairly cut and dry. I don't see anything flawed with battle powers either, not to mention that's a poor excuse for the 120/150 million figures not only being projections. (Well that or errors). They're literally numbers used to illustrate someone's chi level, I don't see anything artistic about them, other than how they're measured or their usage.

[Fox666]

The thing is that you can't prove me that the "large" gap is large enough so that you can't round that number to 120,000,000. Even in the manga, 1,307 or 1,330 are described as "slightly over 1,000".

[Perfect]

What I can prove is that there is a large gap and that the 120/150 million figures aren't possible, which was the entire point. My 70-90 million figures are what I believe they should be at, I'm not trying to prove that. Again, the point is in the first sentence. If 1,307 and 1,330 are viewed as the same almost and a little over a thousand, that's an entirely accurate insinuation. By that logic, we have to look at the insinuation of what's believed for Goku's battle to be when he can barley stand. For Freeza, it could be a multitude of things, but it's stated several times Goku is stronger, so he'd have to be placed below Goku's battle power by a multitude.

[Fox666]

They are "possible", since the meaning of "large" change from person to person, which virtually makes anything possible.

Edit: we reached a dead end, right? Let's stop there.

[Perfect]

Large is a word used to describe a giant gap. A giant gap is certainly present since Goku can't stand up properly. It's virtually impossible for Goku to barley stand up and be at full power. So I don't see any possibility. If you'd like to stop, that's up to you, seeing that I'm all for debating this further.

[Bussani]

Probably is an estimate, seeing that he had to have lost a considerable amount of power. Goku for sure had, seeing he could barley stand up. Freeza on the other hand was half blind, covered in wounds, extremely pissed off and noticeably weaker. It is speculation, via the number itself, but Freeza getting weaker is set in stone.

I don't see anything that sets this idea in stone. It might be a decent assumption to make--Freeza took quite a bit of damage, so his ki could well have fallen--but no one actually says anything to that effect. I guess what I'm saying is, I'd believe it either way.

[Perfect]

Look at it this way, Goku could barley stand. SSJ Goku's stronger than Freeza, Freeza would logically have to have lost a considerable amount of energy. And in that regard, if we were to assume Freeza was at maximum power, that would mean the usage of all his attacks and the impact of the Genki-Dama meant absolutely nothing, and it was all a waste of the story's time and Toriyama's work. He's clearly shown to be weakened and incredibly pissed off.

[Bussani]

I guess it's because I don't see ki as something you can lose and then not reclaim, like fuel leaking from a tank. Like someone else already said, I think something akin to a rush of adrenaline can restore that potential for full power, and I personally always felt like becoming a Super Saiyan did this for Goku. I also never got the impression that Freeza was weaker, just hurt and angered. But again, that's just me.

[Perfect]

I guess it's because I don't see ki as something you can lose and then not reclaim, like fuel leaking from a tank. Like someone else already said, I think something akin to a rush of adrenaline can restore that potential for full power, and I personally always felt like becoming a Super Saiyan did this for Goku. I also never got the impression that Freeza was weaker, just hurt and angered. But again, that's just me.

While I don't see any of that working for Freeza, that might explain why Goku was able to retain such a fierce amount of strength, aside from the multiplier, but still doesn't justify a figure of 150 million. I pretty much see it as the multiplier boosting his power, allowing him to retain the ability to now stand and attack. Freeza though, gets consistently trashed before his 100%, gets impaled by a Genki-Dama, not to mention all the attacks he used beforehand. It's like deficit spending, he's using more than he's recovering. Goku's transformation kinda works as a viable excuse for a recovery, but Freeza just powering up, well, there's really no reason for him to have magically regained all his power.

If characters could do that, then Cell shouldn't have bothered eating the Senzu Bean he was given. Goku should have just went SSJ against Pure Boo even though he was too exhausted... Yeah, there's the problem though. If Goku's transformation could really do that, why didn't it all the other times? Was there something special about the first time? I don't think there's really an implication of that ever.

I think adrenalin rushes can be similar to Gohan's "rage boosts", but not anywhere near to the point of going from losing a substantial amount of energy, to having as much or more than you started with. The only character that seems to ever be the case with, because it's heavily discussed in the story and foreshadowed, is Gohan. All of it seems to be credited towards his heritage too, so I mean, even for Goku that doesn't seem to work very well (plus this would be the only rendition available to us of Goku having a "rage boost" on Gohan's level, which wouldn't make any sense).

[Bussani]

While I don't see any of that working for Freeza, that might explain why Goku was able to retain such a fierce amount of strength, aside from the multiplier, but still doesn't justify a figure of 150 million. I pretty much see it as the multiplier boosting his power, allowing him to retain the ability to now stand and attack. Freeza though, gets consistently trashed before his 100%, gets impaled by a Genki-Dama, not to mention all the attacks he used beforehand. It's like deficit spending, he's using more than he's recovering. Goku's transformation kinda works as a viable excuse for a recovery, but Freeza just powering up, well, there's really no reason for him to have magically regained all his power.

If characters could do that, then Cell shouldn't have bothered eating the Senzu Bean he was given. Goku should have just went SSJ against Pure Boo even though he was too exhausted...

All of this is based on the assumption that Freeza lost power, though, and I still think that's just an assumption. Cell and Goku were outright stated to have smaller ki in those situation, but you're just saying that, logically, Freeza should have. And maybe you're right--logically, maybe he should have. But I see no solid evidence that that's the case.

I also think there are two ways of "losing ki": the kind where you lose/use up stamina and reserves, and the kind where the maximum power you can output at any given moment is reduced. Sometimes it's a bit of both; once a person's stamina has been heavily used up, their maximum output also begins to fall. In this situation, though Freeza's stamina may have been reduced, I'm not sure his max output was.

Yeah, there's the problem though. If Goku's transformation could really do that, why didn't it all the other times? Was there something special about the first time?

Interesting question. If we think about it, every other time after that Goku has used Super Saiyan and its various forms in his major battles, so you never get another situation where you could say that his base form was weakened, but his Super Saiyan power--unused as of that time--was still ready to come out. In a way it might be a bit like Gohan's rage boosts. But because he always uses Super Saiyan after that, it's never there to fall back on in this way.

That's what springs to my mind, at least.

[Deep Thought]

I always thought that the injuries sustained by Goku and Freeza lowered their powers to the degree that the discrepancy wasn't wholly noticeable. Since Goku was more hurt than Freeza, the difference in their powers was decreased. Something like this:

Goku: 3,000,000 (KKx10: 30,000,000 and KKx20: 60,000,000)
Freeza: 3,000,000 (50%: 60,000,000)
Goku (after getting beat on by 50% Freeza and post KKx20/Genki Dama strain): 325,000
Freeza (after getting hit with the Genki Dama, 50%): 7,500,000
Goku (Super Sayajin): 16,500,000
Freeza (100%): 15,000,000

That would explain the power difference and their injuries, which are kind of hard to explain otherwise. I can accept that perhaps achieving the legendary Super Sayajin transformation for the first time will sustain and rejuvenate you, but what about Freeza? He clearly got caught in the explosion (we see a panel of his getting caught in the Genki Dama and he has substantial damage to his eye and tail), so what gives?

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I just don't think it'd make sense for Super Saiyan to be weaker than Kaioken, even when considering the possibility of decreased powers. I think Freeza was weakened to an extent, since he said he was "still a match" for them all regardless of almost being taken out by the Genki-Dama. It's also possible that he simply healed from the overflow of power. That's what I think happened with Goku when he transformed.