Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

[rereboy]

I tend to trust what a God and a thousand year old warlock believe.

Why...? The boo arc shows us that Goku and the others are much better at judging fighters than that God and that warlock. That really shatters the validity of what they believe regarding fighters and power. You are just believing in what that say because of their title, disregarding the fact that the boo arc shows how weak their judgment is compared to Goku and the others (regarding combat). Who they are doesn't really mean much if a bunch of Earthlings have better judgment than they have.

Anyway, this is all to show you just how much room for different interpretations there is.

[dprez]

Now that's a judgment call.

Kaioshin and Babidi are simply astounded by the saiyans power.

[Hellspawn28]

Seeing that U18 takes place right after Goku left with Ubb then Goku could beat #17 in his base form if we go by power scaling. I don't know why Salagir doesn't believe that Goku ever surpassed with his base form the power that he had when he first got the SSJ transformation?

[dprez]

Seeing that U18 takes place right after Goku left with Ubb then Goku could beat #17 in his base form if we go by power scaling. I don't know why Salagir doesn't believe that Goku ever surpassed with his base form the power that he had when he first got the SSJ transformation?

Neither do I. Oob is not at his Kid boo level of power when he fights base Goku, but still has gotta be powerful as fuck to fight this Goku like he does.

[Kingdom Heartless]

I can understand why people would think that Goku did reach that level of power.

What I can't understand is why people are basically saying Salagir is wrong to think otherwise.

It's called difference of opinion, and it's something you get a lot in Dragon Ball.

[Pantalones]

Pui-Pui could be indeed stronger than Kaioshin. We just don't know. But since he thought that 10x the gravity of Earth was a big deal, I think its implied that he isn't stronger or at least it doesn't much sense that he is. Even if he had a battle power of only a million, it already wouldn't make much sense to think that 10x the gravity of Earth was a bid deal for him, and that's still a power much, much inferior to Freeza's power.

I think it's not so much "Pui Pui is so weak that 10x gravity is a big deal for him" as "Pui Pui knows that Earth doesn't have gravity anywhere near that high, so he thinks that his opponents from Earth won't be used to it." He doesn't know about Vegeta being used to 10x gravity since childhood, or training in gravity way stronger than that... he just assumes 10x will be enough to throw Vegeta off because Vegeta lives on a planet with wimpy gravity.

Plus, power alone doesn't even determine how much you can resist gravity (it helps A LOT, as seen with little Trunks going Super Saiyan in the gravity chamber to overcome the gravity, but it's not the only factor involved.) Even Saiyans as weak as Raditz could handle 10x gravity, presumably even when they were younger and even weaker... heck, even the newborn Saiyans don't seem to have trouble with that gravity, though I guess they don't exactly need to move around much. On the other hand, Yamcha (who was strong enough to beat the crap out of a Saibaiman, which was supposed to be as strong as Raditz, before getting sneak-attacked) said that just plain running was hard for him in that kind of gravity.

Pui Pui's still weak, but him pointing out the gravity has nothing to do with that.

[rereboy]

Neither do I. Oob is not at his Kid boo level of power when he fights base Goku, but still has gotta be powerful as fuck to fight this Goku like he does.

All we know is that Oob is much, much, much stronger than any normal Earthling and that even without training and at that age, he can already rival with Goku´s base power at that time (which is downright amazing).
We don't know anything more. We don't know exactly how strong Goku's base is and we don't know how strong Oob is at that point compared to Buu, even though he has the potential to be as strong or even stronger than Buu was.

Seeing that U18 takes place right after Goku left with Ubb then Goku could beat #17 in his base form if we go by power scaling. I don't know why Salagir doesn't believe that Goku ever surpassed with his base form the power that he had when he first got the SSJ transformation?

Hmm... Because there's no final proof one way or the other and both interpretations can fit in the story, it just depends on how you look at it?

I can understand why people would think that Goku did reach that level of power.

What I can't understand is why people are basically saying Salagir is wrong to think otherwise.

It's called difference of opinion, and it's something you get a lot in Dragon Ball.

Exactly.

Pui-Pui could be indeed stronger than Kaioshin. We just don't know. But since he thought that 10x the gravity of Earth was a big deal, I think its implied that he isn't stronger or at least it doesn't much sense that he is. Even if he had a battle power of only a million, it already wouldn't make much sense to think that 10x the gravity of Earth was a bid deal for him, and that's still a power much, much inferior to Freeza's power.

I think it's not so much "Pui Pui is so weak that 10x gravity is a big deal for him" as "Pui Pui knows that Earth doesn't have gravity anywhere near that high, so he thinks that his opponents from Earth won't be used to it." He doesn't know about Vegeta being used to 10x gravity since childhood, or training in gravity way stronger than that... he just assumes 10x will be enough to throw Vegeta off because Vegeta lives on a planet with wimpy gravity.

Plus, power alone doesn't even determine how much you can resist gravity (it helps A LOT, as seen with little Trunks going Super Saiyan in the gravity chamber to overcome the gravity, but it's not the only factor involved.) Even Saiyans as weak as Raditz could handle 10x gravity, presumably even when they were younger and even weaker... heck, even the newborn Saiyans don't seem to have trouble with that gravity, though I guess they don't exactly need to move around much. On the other hand, Yamcha (who was strong enough to beat the crap out of a Saibaiman, which was supposed to be as strong as Raditz, before getting sneak-attacked) said that just plain running was hard for him in that kind of gravity.

Pui Pui's still weak, but him pointing out the gravity has nothing to do with that.

I disagree. Power matters a lot in overcoming gravity, its not just about getting used to it. If you need some sort of evidence regarding that, here it is: In the buu arc, kid trunks was having trouble with the high gravity in Vegeta's training room, but instead of getting used to it, he simply increased his power (he turned SSJ) and suddenly the gravity wasn't a problem anymore. He overcamed the gravity by sheer force, without getting used to it. Therefore, its basically proven than a strong enough fighter can overcome a gravity and basically move normally, even if he isn't used to it, as long as he is strong enough.

Therefore, in a gravity of only 10x, a gravity than even Saiyan babies of less than 100 in battle power can withstand, a being with more than a hundred millions in battle power like Freeza (literally, millions of times stronger than those babies), would most likely easily overcome such a low gravity by his sheer force, even if he never experienced such a gravity before.

10x the gravity on Earth should only pose any sort of a problem for those beings who aren't used to it and have less than 500,000 or so in battle power, I believe. And given what is shown in the manga and that I've mentioned, this seems to be a very logical interpretation (to me).

So... Given that Pui-Pui thinks that it is a big deal, how would he be able to fight Kaioshin and three others? I think this a very relevant question which shows just how outclassed he is, even when compared only to Kaioshin. And if Babidi couldn't see that, then his judgment is weak, like the rest of the arc seems to imply.

[testing223]

Re: Ages

Salagir should just write a loophole that it's not the EXACT same time in every universe.

Which would fit since things obviously flowed and changed in each universe by a few years already.

All the debates about how old all the characters are become moot if it's not the same year as Universe 18.

[rereboy]

Re: Ages

Salagir should just write a loophole that it's not the EXACT same time in every universe.

Which would fit since things obviously flowed and changed in each universe by a few years already.

All the debates about how old all the characters are become moot if it's not the same year as Universe 18.

He already did it for Future Trunks. In his universe not only is it a different time but also not so many years have passed.

For the rest of the universes, most of the them, if not all, seem to work on the same time and apparently there is no need for it to change. The biggest concern would be Nappa's age I believe, and even in his 80s he could still look good enough to look like a human in his 50s.

[Saiga]

Re: Ages

Salagir should just write a loophole that it's not the EXACT same time in every universe.

Which would fit since things obviously flowed and changed in each universe by a few years already.

All the debates about how old all the characters are become moot if it's not the same year as Universe 18.

He already did it for Future Trunks. In his universe not only is it a different time but not so many years have passed.

For the rest of the universes, most of the them, if not all, seem to work on the same time and apparently there is no need for it to change. The biggest concern would be Nappa's age I believe, and even in his 80s he could still look good enough to look like a human in his 50s.

No, "Future" Trunks is currently in the same Age as them.

[dbgtFO]

I disagree. Power matters a lot in overcoming gravity, its not just about getting used to it.

And the guy you quoted, Pantalones, agreed with that:

Plus, power alone doesn't even determine how much you can resist gravity (it helps A LOT, as seen with little Trunks going Super Saiyan in the gravity chamber to overcome the gravity, but it's not the only factor involved.)

If you need some sort of evidence regarding that, here it is: In the buu arc, kid trunks was having trouble with the high gravity in Vegeta's training room, but instead of getting used to it, he simply increased his power (he turned SSJ) and suddenly the gravity wasn't a problem anymore. He overcamed the gravity by sheer force, without getting used to it.

And he already covered this too.

(it helps A LOT, as seen with little Trunks going Super Saiyan in the gravity chamber to overcome the gravity, but it's not the only factor involved.)

[TonyTheTiger]

I tend to gravitate toward Occam's Razor in these matters. In other words, if a writer/character provides us information then it's fair to take that information at face value barring the presence of other information that would suggest we shouldn't. This has been a thorn in the side of DB fans for so long specifically because Toriyama and Toei will toss in info that may not make a whole lot of sense without hinting that we shouldn't take it at face value. It's kind of like Poe's Law in that regard except for story plotting instead of sarcasm.

Regardless, I think it's fair for Salagir to interpret the character growth as such that an individual's base form will plateau. That's pretty much what Super Saiyan is all about anyway, right? Pushing past natural limits or drawing out latent power that isn't normally accessible.

[dprez]

It's true that most debates have to do with characters giving us information that we're all gonna view and interpret differently.

Regardless, I think it's fair for Salagir to interpret the character growth as such that an individual's base form will plateau. That's pretty much what Super Saiyan is all about anyway, right? Pushing past natural limits or drawing out latent power that isn't normally accessible.

Isn't this a bit contradictory?

[dbgtFO]

^ He's clearly talking about Super Saiyan in the second bolded line, so no.

[dprez]

There is no reason why that would not apply to the base form though.

[TonyTheTiger]

Sure there is. The latent potential within isn't something that can be freely accessed. Super Saiyan, at least as far as Salagir is suggesting (and I happen to agree), is more or less a cheat code that taps into otherwise inaccessible energy. Gohan, with his sooper dooper upgrade, pretty much just has 100% of what he can possibly be drawn out due to magic.

The idea that a person has latent power that they can't access "at base" is actually a very real phenomenon. Our bodies can do some unbelievable things when pushed to the brink. Things like lifting cars when somebody's life is on the line because every muscle fiber fires off in unison for a Hail Mary effort. But we can't do it normally because doing so can actually break our own bones and seriously injure us in other ways. But when you're in a life and death situation, that shit doesn't matter.

So, yeah. Goku and Gohan tapping into something they didn't know they had when faced with Freeza and Cell? Not entirely fantasy.

[rereboy]

I disagree. Power matters a lot in overcoming gravity, its not just about getting used to it.

And the guy you quoted, Pantalones, agreed with that:

Plus, power alone doesn't even determine how much you can resist gravity (it helps A LOT, as seen with little Trunks going Super Saiyan in the gravity chamber to overcome the gravity, but it's not the only factor involved.)

If you need some sort of evidence regarding that, here it is: In the buu arc, kid trunks was having trouble with the high gravity in Vegeta's training room, but instead of getting used to it, he simply increased his power (he turned SSJ) and suddenly the gravity wasn't a problem anymore. He overcamed the gravity by sheer force, without getting used to it.

And he already covered this too.

(it helps A LOT, as seen with little Trunks going Super Saiyan in the gravity chamber to overcome the gravity, but it's not the only factor involved.)

I know. What I meant to say is I don't agree with just how much a factor "getting used to it" is when we have a low gravity (only 10 times) and someone as strong as Freeza, since even beings of less than 100 in power level can withstand it after living in it. Getting used to it is a factor of course, but only to beings in a certain range for a certain gravity. As the Trunks situation proves, with enough power, being used to it doesn't really matter. I really don't think it would matter to Freeza if he was used to that gravity or not since its not a very strong gravity... He is way too powerful for that gravity to matter to him, it probably would only slow him down a nano-second, if it slowed him down at all.

Re: Ages

Salagir should just write a loophole that it's not the EXACT same time in every universe.

Which would fit since things obviously flowed and changed in each universe by a few years already.

All the debates about how old all the characters are become moot if it's not the same year as Universe 18.

He already did it for Future Trunks. In his universe not only is it a different time but not so many years have passed.

For the rest of the universes, most of the them, if not all, seem to work on the same time and apparently there is no need for it to change. The biggest concern would be Nappa's age I believe, and even in his 80s he could still look good enough to look like a human in his 50s.

No, "Future" Trunks is currently in the same Age as them.

Ah, you are right. I interpreted it poorly.

[dprez]

Looks like we'll be getting a Bibidi special next. I guess it's the back story to one of the Boo universes.

[Fox666]

I just love the comics they post in the commentaries

[Saimaroimaru]

I suppose you can't go space pirating if everything is destroyed.