Early Z Battle Power Jump

[Super Vejito]

I'm not that obsessed with battle powers in the sense that I know there are inconsistencies. However, something has always bothered me:

Throughout DragonBall, power levels don't increase that dramatically. While Goku gets about 30-40 times stronger between meeting Bulma and winning the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai, he's clearly not an ordinary person and we see him undergo ridiculous training with every expert available, including Kami-sama. The known battle powers and their progression make sense for that part of the series, at least to me.

After Raditz comes in though and everyone starts training for Nappa and Vegeta, battle powers suddenly skyrocket and I've often heard people criticize the show for this. Goku going from 416 to more than 8000 is pretty insane in itself, but the earthlings go from ~200 to ~1000 or more in one year. They don't seem to do anything that Goku didn't do, but apparently they're all prodigies that can become universe level in a mere year. =P

My question here is whether the official sources (be it Toriyama or the Daizenshuu) ever commented on this. There doesn't seem to be any apparent reason to completely overturn the scale of power up till then, the villains could have worked out the same way without having numbers attached to them that are so high that they become meaningless. Was Raditz arriving such a "shock to the system" that the norm was suddenly that much higher? I don't really see how that works with martial arts training, but it's definitely possible for an external influence to raise an isolated community to a new level with other things. If it's just something the author never considered, so be it, but I'd like to hear some thoughts on this.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Most people just look at the power jump as being necessary to keep the plot moving.

I simply look at it as the earthlings receiving complete training from Kami, while also having the opportunity to spar with each other on a daily basis so they could all improve nice and fast. Kami left most of the training up to Popo, so Goku really only had him to spar with most of the time. The earthlings had both Kami and Popo for the training, as well as themselves to train with.

At one point, I actually thought the Z-warriors gained "inner potential" to improve their powers based on sensing the new enemies Chi and being able to remember it as a measuring point to where they want to be when they train. Don't laugh at me, tho

[Bussani]

Edit: I started writing this before he posted, but Turlast has since said a few of the things I had to say. So...kind of repeating them below, but whatever.

I do like the shock to the system idea, personally. There have been times I'd play video games against a small group of friends and eventually think I'd hit the peak of skill, only to then face a new opponent who's so much better. Amazingly, I'm somehow then able to surpass the limits I thought I had! It's weird.

Anyway, there are lots of others thoughts when it comes to this. It turned out that Kami left most of Goku's training to Mr. Popo after a certain point, and it seemed to be because he decided that Goku wouldn't have it in him to kill Piccolo once he knew about the link between him and Kami. Maybe Goku would have made the same progress as the Earthlings if Kami had more faith in him and had taken more of an interest in his training? I'm not sure about that, but it's a thought. There are other factors, like how having sparring partners of your own level who grow along with you seems to really help. Could it also be that the humans just had a lot more room for improvement than Goku had? After all, Goku had his dormant power brought out with the Super God Water, and was told that if a person had tapped into all of that hidden strength with training, the water would have no effect; since the Earthlings didn't, maybe they still had that hidden reserve to stumble across under Kami's tutelage, whereas Goku wouldn't have anything left hidden for Kami to help bring out.

The other increases being so much more massive than Dragon Ball's makes some sense to me, since the training itself was constantly getting more and more intense. Goku's training on the way to Namek is also unique since he abused the heck out of those near-death-power-ups.

[Insertclevername]

The other increases being so much more massive than Dragon Ball's makes some sense to me, since the training itself was constantly getting more and more intense. Goku's training on the way to Namek is also unique since he abused the heck out of those near-death-power-ups.

Was Goku even aware of that when he was training or was that all by accident?

[Bussani]

The other increases being so much more massive than Dragon Ball's makes some sense to me, since the training itself was constantly getting more and more intense. Goku's training on the way to Namek is also unique since he abused the heck out of those near-death-power-ups.

Was Goku even aware of that when he was training or was that all by accident?

A bit of both, maybe. The narrator said this:

Chapter: 270 (DBZ 76), P8.3-4
Context: Narrator commenting on Goku’s increasing strength.
Narrator: “Goku had continued this insane pattern of pushing his body and ki to the brink of death, then refreshing himself again by eating a senzu. The 7 senzu he received from Lord Karin have already fallen to only 3…However, though this training is outrageous, perhaps Goku has somehow realized the Saiyan characteristic of their strength increasing when they overcome death…”

[dbgtFO]

^ By the time of the Ginyu battle Goku knew it worked that way, so he figured it out sometime during his journey to Namek. If he realized it while he was training or first after all was said and done is unknown, though I like to think he realized it during his training and then thought up that training method to test it out.

Chapter: 283 (DBZ 89), P12.1-2
Goku: “Vegeta, you defeat the other guy [Jheese]. You made a full recovery after almost dying, so your power should have greatly increased. He’s no longer an opponent you can’t beat…”
Vegeta: “Chih…So you knew, huh?”

[Fin]

After all, Goku had his dormant power brought out with the Super God Water, and was told that if a person had tapped into all of that hidden strength with training, the water would have no effect; since the Earthlings didn't, maybe they still had that hidden reserve to stumble across under Kami's tutelage, whereas Goku wouldn't have anything left hidden for Kami to help bring out.

I once thought this might be the case. I had a theory about how everybody has massive reserves of dormant power, which Saiyans can tap into when they transform into their ape forms. The water allowed Goku to tap into it in his human form (as implied by the artwork when he kills Piccolo and fights Popo), but his training with God actually taught him to exercise greater control over it. Meanwhile, the Earthlings didn't even know how to tap into their dormant power at all, so their training with God began with this, and resulted in a massive boost of their combat power.

I never really thought about this interpretation in great detail though, so it's probably filled with holes.

[Fox666]

as implied by the artwork when he kills Piccolo and fights Popo

I think the Super Exciting Guide actually says it was his Saiyan nature or ancestry, but I don't remember the details.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Without the introduction of the battle power system assigning numbers to characters' strengths, no-one would've even noticed or known about this. Who's to say that Gokuu himself didn't make similar power gains in pre-Z DB too?

[Super Vejito]

That same battle power system? We know what sort of jumps he made throughout DB.

I do like the shock to the system idea, personally. There have been times I'd play video games against a small group of friends and eventually think I'd hit the peak of skill, only to then face a new opponent who's so much better. Amazingly, I'm somehow then able to surpass the limits I thought I had! It's weird.

I'm heavily involved in a competitive fighting game scene and this is also what I was thinking of. The community as a whole is constantly pushed forward and whenever someone sets the bar at a certain point, many others will quickly catch up to that.

You and Turlast make some fair points about the earthlings possibly getting better training at Kami's place than Goku had, although they were only there for a year and you didn't get to see much of that training. I'd assume they sparred plenty before that as well, but maybe the training is more effective if you can constantly try things against people of your own level? There is no doubt though that Goku's overall fighting experience at that point was a lot more relevant, as he fought people with a lot at stake, so this can only go so far.

If it's about hidden potential being brought out, it would seem that Goku got a very small bonus from that as opposed to every other main character, which would fit in with the notion that he's a low class warrior and untalented. I kind of like that idea, as you can ascribe a lot of his improvement in Z to sheer hard work and innate traits of the Saiyajin race (near-death powerups and transformations). This does ride on the assumption that the earthlings had their potential unlocked in that year of training and doesn't really fit in with Kuririn having his potential unlocked by Guru on Namek (though perhaps it wasn't the same thing, kind of like how Gohan supposedly had his potential unlocked both on Namek and during the Buu arc).

[Fin]

It seems as though every time someone hits their limits there are new depths of hidden power to be found within them.

[Bussani]

The Super God Water was said to bring out your dormant power, but if a person has already found and brought out that power through training, or if they just didn't have any to begin with, the God Water wouldn't be able to make them stronger at all. When Kuririn talks to the Namekian Elder he says something like, "I'm sure I'd know if I had any power left hiding inside me," but it turns out he was wrong. So it's possible that Kami's training helped them realize some of their dormant power and bring it out, but not all of it, leaving some for the Elder to release.

One thing I kind of like about this idea is that you could interpret it as meaning that Earthlings tend to have more dormant power than Saiyans. That might explain why Saiyan-Human hybrids are born with so much--possibly even more than the humans!

[Saiga]

The Super God Water was said to bring out your dormant power, but if a person has already found and brought out that power through training, or if they just didn't have any to begin with, the God Water wouldn't be able to make them stronger at all. When Kuririn talks to the Namekian Elder he says something like, "I'm sure I'd know if I had any power left hiding inside me," but it turns out he was wrong. So it's possible that Kami's training helped them realize some of their dormant power and bring it out, but not all of it, leaving some for the Elder to release.

One thing I kind of like about this idea is that you could interpret it as meaning that Earthlings tend to have more dormant power than Saiyans. That might explain why Saiyan-Human hybrids are born with so much--possibly even more than the humans!

I highly doubt that the humans had a noteworthy amount of dormant power. Kurilin's power unlocking from Guru didn't amount to much.

[Bussani]

I highly doubt that the humans had a noteworthy amount of dormant power. Kurilin's power unlocking from Guru didn't amount to much.

I'd say it did if you compare it to the amount Goku got from the Super God Water, and that's not even taking into account what I was pondering about Kami's training.

[Saiga]

I highly doubt that the humans had a noteworthy amount of dormant power. Kurilin's power unlocking from Guru didn't amount to much.

I'd say it did if you compare it to the amount Goku got from the Super God Water, and that's not even taking into account what I was pondering about Kami's training.

If I remember correctly, the humans drank the Super God Water as well before the 23rd Budokai.

[Fox666]

Not necessarily, it's only said they trained with Karin too.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Krillin went from around 1,500 to 75,000 after having his inner power unlocked. I'd say that's a considerable amount of power gained.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Krillin went from around 1,500 to 75,000 after having his inner power unlocked. I'd say that's a considerable amount of power gained.

Well, technically, he went from around 1,500 to 13,000, and Vegeta later says that Gohan and Kuririn's powers were steadily increasing, however you want to interpret that. I've never got why the Great Elder's power unlocking presumably worked like that, and it's not implied to with the Super God Water or the old Kaioushin's power unlocking (beyond their limits). But I don't think a person could've brought out all their dormant power through training or just not have dormant power at all, because that implies that ordinary beings or martial artists have a limit, a rule that was continuously broken throughout the series when fighters discovered new and more effective ways of training, transformations, etc.

Dare I say it: Karin may've been being a tad naive or presumptuous. It's not as if he lives in the afterlife and knows everything about it, like the multitude of dead martial artists that could push each other further or Dai Kaiou's training himself (he was mentioned in the manga, so his training for certain warriors could've still existed; did so for the lower Kaious, so why not?). Not even Piccolo, merged with God, knew for sure about the Kaioushin's existence, let alone the legendary (key word here being "legendary") Z-Sword that not even Kaioushin himself was sure how it would give the pull-outer power, or if it even would. The old Kaioushin popping out and releasing Gohan's power with his own magical ability was entirely unprecedented (I bet everyone, or at least most people, just assumed he was dead).

[Bussani]

But I don't think a person could've brought out all their dormant power through training or just not have dormant power at all, because that implies that ordinary beings or martial artists have a limit

Only if you believe that having no more dormant power means you've reached your limit. I don't think tapping into dormant power is the only way to get stronger, personally.

[Piccolo Daimao]

But I don't think a person could've brought out all their dormant power through training or just not have dormant power at all, because that implies that ordinary beings or martial artists have a limit

Only if you believe that having no more dormant power means you've reached your limit. I don't think tapping into dormant power is the only way to get stronger, personally.

Hmm. I do believe that, but I think that people always have dormant power and methods to improve.

That's an interesting theory you have there, though, if you look at techniques such as Kaiouken, which technically doesn't appear to draw from Gokuu's dormant power.