SSJ Goku vs Freeza power difference

[Perfect]

I don't see it as an assumption, in fact I'd place it up to rationalization on the speculation of Freeza not being weaker. When a character is battling for such a longer period of time, he'll clearly lose chi. He clearly shows signs of heavy injuries, there's no question of that. There's no reason to think he's not weaker. Call me old fashioned, but I don't understand how exhaustion and injuries can't be cut and dry. I view the Daizenshuu battle powers as completely ignoring the fact either contestant was injured because they completely forgot about it.

I see the Super Saiyan transformation entirely different. I think of it like this:
4*50=200
4 = (b)ase
50=(m)ultiplier

50-200=150
50=(d)amage

b-d*m=200

I pretty much see SSJ as an overlay, just a multiplier in terms of damage.

[Kaboom]

I figure while Goku's injuries may still have inhibited him to some degree even as a Super Saiyan, the first-time transformation itself restored his stamina by restoring his Ki. Which would be reflected in the 150 million battle power measurement seeing as how, well, one's amount of Ki is what battle powers are measuring.

Same for Freeza, in a way. He may have been somewhat injured, but he was still way better off than Goku, and had a crapton more power still in reserve in comparison. But likewise, his injuries most likely would have affected his performance somewhat, and certainly wouldn't have helped alleviate the whole "power draining away more quickly than beer at a NASCAR tailgate party" problem.

[Bussani]

I think Freeza was weakened to an extent, since he said he was "still a match" for them all regardless of almost being taken out by the Genki-Dama.

Of course, this could simply be talking about stamina rather than how much ki he was capable of putting out.

I don't see it as an assumption, in fact I'd place it up to rationalization on the speculation of Freeza not being weaker. When a character is battling for such a longer period of time, he'll clearly lose chi. He clearly shows signs of heavy injuries, there's no question of that. There's no reason to think he's not weaker. Call me old fashioned, but I don't understand how exhaustion and injuries can't be cut and dry.

It just doesn't make that much sense to me. Freeza still had a ton of power left that he hadn't even used yet, and he still had the ability to raise his power. Even if his 100% had been reduced, there's no reason for him to be standing there weaker than he was before the attack when he still has more ki to bring out (which ties into my reply to Turlast: how can saying he's "still a match" for them be referring to his supposedly weakened state when he still has the ability to power up?).

Freeza starts using "about 70%" of his power before he even pulls out the big muscles. I think it's overcomplicating something so simple to say that this 70% of his was actually some fraction of that due to his injuries--but that's just me. I like to keep things simple where possible.

[Perfect]

He wasn't weaker than he was before, not once he pumped up to 70%-100%. That reserved power is what allowed him to survive, become stronger and compete with SSJ Goku. I think it's very simple:

Start 50% - 50
Battle worn - 42
Post-Genki-Dama - 27
70% - 47
100% - 77

Of course those numbers are solely for demonstration, but they illustrate my point. Variety of such:

Start 50% - 50
Battle worn - 45
Post-Genki-Dama - 35
70% - 55
100% - 85

Start 50% - 50
Battle worn - 47.5
Post-Genki-Dama - 38.5
70% - 58.8
100% - 88.8

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I believe it's referring to his weakened state simply because he never intended to power-up any further at that point. I really don't get into the specifics of Battle Powers or things like that, but I just see Freeza's power taking a hit there. Not by a huge margin, but I'd like to think his (or whatever level) level at 50% wouldn't make it out unscathed after nearly being crushed to oblivion. But of course, that's just how I see it.

Could be referring to stamina, but I think it means "I'm still powerful enough to take you down regardless", so I think he's referring to power. Either power or stamina, if not both, could apply here.

[Bussani]

I get what you're saying, I just don't think it's as set in stone as you do. I called it an assumption because you're assuming Freeza's full output must have been reduced due to his injuries--which, as I said, might seem like a logical thing to assume in your eyes, but logical conclusions aren't the same as set in stone facts. Personally, I think reducing a person's full power is quite a bit harder than reducing their stamina (although the latter eventually does lead to the former)--harder still if the person hasn't even gone near using that full power yet.

[Perfect]

I don't understand how somewhat severe injuries wouldn't reduce battle power, that's the thing. He loses part of his body, he's covered in wounds and blood. He can't see out his eye (right I think) for a good while too. That most definitely pertains to more than just stamina, especially seeing that it's established shooting chi is losing chi, and Freeza certainly did a lot of that. (That's not even factoring the struggle with the Genki-Dama).

[Super Vegetto]

Frieza in 100% is full power. Frieza because of damage is way his stamina is getting lower by every atk SSJ Goku does and why he puts strain on his body which is result of beeing buff. Body cant take that much power so muscles become bigger to actualy take that much power. Btw this was suposed to be last fight in dbz so its logicly that fight should be long even if there is 30mill gap.

[Fox666]

I don't understand how somewhat severe injuries wouldn't reduce battle power, that's the thing.

You don't need to understand it. It's just a manga, not everything needs to make sense from your perspective.

Whenever someone says he is using 100% of his power, he should be using 100% of his power. What you are proposing is that, somehow, Freeza said he was using 70% or 100% while he was actually using a much lower amount.

But that would be very awkward approach. Instead Freeza should say "because of the injuries I sustained, I will only be able to use up to 75%" sort of. But he didn't, Freeza flat-out says he will use 100% of his power and the chapter title calls it "Freeza's full power".

Maybe he shouldn't be able to use 100% of his power if you are thinking in the battle beetween Goku and Cell, but not everything is coherent in the manga, especially when it comes to battle powers. Logically, if Goku jumped from 416 to 924 while firing a Kamehameha at Raditz, he should have finished Freeza while using the Kaio-ken x20 even if Freeza was using 100% instead of 50% at the time.

He loses part of his body, he's covered in wounds and blood. He can't see out his eye (right I think) for a good while too. That most definitely pertains to more than just stamina, especially seeing that it's established shooting chi is losing chi, and Freeza certainly did a lot of that. (That's not even factoring the struggle with the Genki-Dama).

Visually he looks almost the same as before. Also take in account that Freeza can survive with only half of his body, so injuries would not affect him the same way with humans. Either way, by no means you can quantify that sort of thing.

[Godo]

I for one believe in injuries severely decreasing the battle power of a fighter, even though they have a transformation.
We have two examples of this in the manga (that I can think of):

1) Vegeta at Earth: Whilst having pretty much had his ass handed to him in many ways, he could still fight. But he had lost a large chunk of his power! The Gohan who had problems with Nappa could somewhat hold off Vegeta whilst Kuririn was aiming at Vegeta with the Genki Dama. Also, a Vegeta of 18,000 wouldn't have a problem with an Oozaru of roughly 10,000 in power.
When Vegeta has had enough, he says that he is going to blow Earth up with him, but merely creates a small crater, saying that it was awkward that he didn't manage more.

2) SSJ2 Gohan vs. Cell: A blast at Gohan's arm makes him lose 50% of his power.

So for me, it's pretty evident that both Goku and Freeza didn't show their absolute full power in their fight.
For one, their damage was pretty much even; Goku had been roughed up before shooting the Genki Dama, and Freeza when he had the Genki Dama shot at him.
The regeneration part was only true when transforming into a new form. For Freeza only. And his 100% form wasn't a new form. At least I don't remember anyone saying that Goku was fully healed (and his damage was still visible).

I also believe another thing: Freeza's max was actually his 75%, and his 100% was nothing else but his version of USSJ2, which rendered his powers to drain quickly.
For someone like Freeza, who doesn't seem to have ki sensing abilities and only measures by Scouter or by other means, he wouldn't understand the limitations of his 100% form, as well as it's energy usage (since he never had to use it before). He only knew that it made him stronger, which was the only thing that really mattered to the tyrant who one-shot killed everyone in his way.

At least that is what I believe regarding this topic.

[Super Vegetto]

I for one believe in injuries severely decreasing the battle power of a fighter, even though they have a transformation.
We have two examples of this in the manga (that I can think of):

1) Vegeta at Earth: Whilst having pretty much had his ass handed to him in many ways, he could still fight. But he had lost a large chunk of his power! The Gohan who had problems with Nappa could somewhat hold off Vegeta whilst Kuririn was aiming at Vegeta with the Genki Dama. Also, a Vegeta of 18,000 wouldn't have a problem with an Oozaru of roughly 10,000 in power.
When Vegeta has had enough, he says that he is going to blow Earth up with him, but merely creates a small crater, saying that it was awkward that he didn't manage more.

2) SSJ2 Gohan vs. Cell: A blast at Gohan's arm makes him lose 50% of his power.

So for me, it's pretty evident that both Goku and Freeza didn't show their absolute full power in their fight.
For one, their damage was pretty much even; Goku had been roughed up before shooting the Genki Dama, and Freeza when he had the Genki Dama shot at him.
The regeneration part was only true when transforming into a new form. For Freeza only. And his 100% form wasn't a new form. At least I don't remember anyone saying that Goku was fully healed (and his damage was still visible).

I also believe another thing: Freeza's max was actually his 75%, and his 100% was nothing else but his version of USSJ2, which rendered his powers to drain quickly.
For someone like Freeza, who doesn't seem to have ki sensing abilities and only measures by Scouter or by other means, he wouldn't understand the limitations of his 100% form, as well as it's energy usage (since he never had to use it before). He only knew that it made him stronger, which was the only thing that really mattered to the tyrant who one-shot killed everyone in his way.

At least that is what I believe regarding this topic.

Its already stated he used full power ( 100% ). Goku explains how he will put strain on his body (big muscles) if he goes full power after long battle.
Its yust why Frieza had big muscles. The full power cant take his damaged body so he must put strain (big muscles) to acces to that power.
Goku ssj is new transformation where is gives the new stamina. Kaio-ken 50x is why Goku never used Kaio-ken after Namek and during battle with full power Frieza. Kaio-ken is more stresfull and puts more strain so ssj is the best option.
Its yust not logicly to say they are weak because after Goku transforms he doesnt show any weakness he showed before transforming.

[Perfect]

Frieza in 100% is full power. Frieza because of damage is way his stamina is getting lower by every atk SSJ Goku does and why he puts strain on his body which is result of beeing buff. Body cant take that much power so muscles become bigger to actualy take that much power. Btw this was suposed to be last fight in dbz so its logicly that fight should be long even if there is 30mill gap.

I have no idea what you're talking about, but nothing states that was so supposed to be the last fight.

You don't need to understand it. It's just a manga, not everything needs to make sense from your perspective.

Whenever someone says he is using 100% of his power, he should be using 100% of his power. What you are proposing is that, somehow, Freeza said he was using 70% or 100% while he was actually using a much lower amount.

But that would be very awkward approach. Instead Freeza should say "because of the injuries I sustained, I will only be able to use up to 75%" sort of. But he didn't, Freeza flat-out says he will use 100% of his power and the chapter title calls it "Freeza's full power".

Maybe he shouldn't be able to use 100% of his power if you are thinking in the battle beetween Goku and Cell, but not everything is coherent in the manga, especially when it comes to battle powers. Logically, if Goku jumped from 416 to 924 while firing a Kamehameha at Raditz, he should have finished Freeza while using the Kaio-ken x20 even if Freeza was using 100% instead of 50% at the time.

Don't tell me what I need to understand, if something can make sense, then I'll take the obvious option.

Freeza would be using 70-100% of whatever power he has in his system, it's that simple. It'd be no different than an injured Cell powering up against Gohan, if he didn't get a Senzu Bean. Actually, these mechanics are coherent. If your views contradict the source material, and that goes for anyone, even supplementary views, then they're wrong. Goku jumping that high has nothing incoherent to it. It's simply a means of convection in the sense that lower numbers allow higher gaps, nothing contradicts that either. Stop creating your own twisted fallacies.

Visually he looks almost the same as before. Also take in account that Freeza can survive with only half of his body, so injuries would not affect him the same way with humans. Either way, by no means you can quantify that sort of thing.

No he doesn't, he's missing his tail, his eyes wounded and he has a ton of more wounds and blood. There's a significant difference. Yes Freeza can survive with only half his body, provided he has chi left. As I recall, he was about to die with only half a body, meaning that single injury drained his chi. Goku gave him chi to allow him to live, hence "injuries make you lose energy".

Its already stated he used full power ( 100% ). Goku explains how he will put strain on his body (big muscles) if he goes full power after long battle.
Its yust why Frieza had big muscles. The full power cant take his damaged body so he must put strain (big muscles) to acces to that power.
Goku ssj is new transformation where is gives the new stamina. Kaio-ken 50x is why Goku never used Kaio-ken after Namek and during battle with full power Frieza. Kaio-ken is more stresfull and puts more strain so ssj is the best option. Its yust not logicly to say they are weak because after Goku transforms he doesnt show any weakness he showed before transforming.

You're wrong on nearly everything here. Freeza's big muscles were the result of stress and being powered up, but that's by no means justification for 120 million being his battle power. It's simply that he's drawing out his reserves. Goku never used the Kaio-ken"x50", never even said to go beyond 20. Goku did show signs of being weak, huge signs. He couldn't even stand on his own. Godo's example of Vegeta pretty much shows that it's impossible for Freeza to have been using his absolute power.

[Bussani]

especially seeing that it's established shooting chi is losing chi

When was that established? I've never been one to believe that a person's ki (the size of it, battle power, whatever) shrinks every time they shoot some out. It always seemed to me that a character could fight at their maximum power for a while before a loss of stamina would begin to make it fall. To use an analogy, if I'm running on a treadmill, I don't steadily get slower and slower as I use up my strength--especially if I'm not running flat out. Now, yes, if you bashed my legs a few times with a pipe, that would probably slow me down; but if I then injected myself with adrenaline, I could well ignore the pain and damage for a while and run again until it wears off. It's all a bit relative, and as Fox says, we don't really know how Freeza works. He's supposed to be an unstoppable force, so I don't find it hard to believe that he could still put out his full strength even after all that, personally.

I'd just like to point out again that I'm not even faulting your logic. Your conclusion makes perfect sense. There's just a difference between a conclusion being logical and it being a cold, set in stone fact that no one can disagree with.

[Fox666]

Don't tell me what I need to understand, if something can make sense, then I'll take the obvious option.

Freeza would be using 70-100% of whatever power he has in his system, it's that simple. It'd be no different than an injured Cell powering up against Gohan, if he didn't get a Senzu Bean. Actually, these mechanics are coherent. If your views contradict the source material, and that goes for anyone, even supplementary views, then they're wrong. Goku jumping that high has nothing incoherent to it. It's simply a means of convection in the sense that lower numbers allow higher gaps, nothing contradicts that either. Stop creating your own twisted fallacies.

It's very unlikely that Freeza was meant to be using his own numerical system. Neither should the manga chapter call it "full power" if that was true. That would only confuse the reader, and probably it's only you who is creating that confusion.

No he doesn't, he's missing his tail, his eyes wounded and he has a ton of more wounds and blood. There's a significant difference. Yes Freeza can survive with only half his body, provided he has chi left. As I recall, he was about to die with only half a body, meaning that single injury drained his chi. Goku gave him chi to allow him to live, hence "injuries make you lose energy".

He could still talk, however. That's something a regular human would not be able to do. Besides these injuries did not affect the energy he gained from Goku, perhaps the same would apply to the additional 50% he was not using before being hit by the Genki-Dama.

[hleV]

Speaking of injuries, I have a theory that they didn't affect Goku that much after he transformed, because, well, as SSJ, his body was 50 times stronger, while the injuries remained the same. So such injuries didn't necessary have to have so much impact on a much stronger Goku.

[Fox666]

Yeah, that makes sense.

Say, if Freeza's Ki dropped to 1% after he was cut in half. The amount of energy that Goku passed to him would not be reduced to 1% of that small Ki sphere. It is the impact of the injury that collapse the Ki, not the injury itself (at least not in Freeza's case who can survive with half of his body).

The same way, Goku would have increased his strength in additionals 49 times his full power. At least in the series the Saiyans seems to have a reinvigorating feeling whenever they transform.

[dbgtFO]

I think they were both at full power(or at least very close to it).

So the 50x multiplier is used here to argue that since Goku lost a lot of power, multiplying his weakened state would obviously give a worse result than multiplying his fresh state.
I would buy it, if we were talking about the Kaioken technique, which stands in contrast with Super Saiyan in the sense, that you aren't tapping into your own hidden power, but instead is temporarily creating new strength beyond the body's normal limit.

I just don't agree with such a strict interpretation of the Super Saiyan multiplier, because of that hidden power aspect. You basically have a huge amount of power, that hasn't been used yet, so I just don't see a huge part of it being inaccesible once you actually tap into it. Do note that the above only applied to Goku's first transformation, because he hadn't used and lost his Super Saiyan power beforehand.

I do believe injuries count for something. In Saiyan Arc Vegeta's case it was not the injuries alone, it was also the fact that he was giving it his all, thus I think if Vegeta had power in reserve, he wouldn't be affected to the same extent.

In Freeza's case he wasn't using his full power, when he took on the Genkidama and he clearly wasn't as affected as much as Saiyan Arc Vegeta was, so we couldn't possibly know how much his access to his full power was affected. Personally I think his access to his full power was affected to the extent, that he couldn't use it the same amount of time, he normally would be able to.

In Cell's case, I don't think he was affected to such an extent, that he wouldn't be able to go to full power, so I think it's just like in Freeza's case. Like Bussani, I think the key word is stamina. Goku was basically sprinting, while Cell was jogging, so Goku was getting tired faster than Cell, who should still be able to go on a full out sprint, though his decreased stamina lowers the time, he could normally stay at that power.

I think the Gohan example showed this. He lost ½ his power because of that injury, but he was still able to go all out, though his decreased stamina meant it only lasted for that single burst. That's how I interprete it.

[Perfect]

especially seeing that it's established shooting chi is losing chi

When was that established?

When Goku did nothing but charge a his Kamehameha in the air against Cell, and soon thereafter fired it at the character in question, he appeared visibly weakened. I also believe it's mentioned that Goku lost an amount of chi from firing that wave, in which the same is said for Cell tanking the hit. Goku and Cell are around the same level upon sustaining their injuries. Cell is given a Senzu Bean because he's weakened after all, which therefore proves that Goku is weakened, granted it's stated. All Goku did was fire chi from his body, which weakened him. Another example is actual attacks having battle powers, generally larger than what's read if charged. This means that there's no direct proportions from the user losing their chi and the chi being put into the attack. However, it's very clear some amount is lost from firing an attack. The greater the attack charged from the user's own chi, the greater the loss is.

It's very unlikely that Freeza was meant to be using his own numerical system. Neither should the manga chapter call it "full power" if that was true. That would only confuse the reader, and probably it's only you who is creating that confusion.

Unlikely? That's entirely an interpretation on your own behalf. He'd have to be relying on his own numerical system, because simply flying, attacking, losing stamina and getting injured and heavily injured, all causes the loss of battle power.

He could still talk, however. That's something a regular human would not be able to do. Besides these injuries did not affect the energy he gained from Goku, perhaps the same would apply to the additional 50% he was not using before being hit by the Genki-Dama.

Yes, he could barley talk, because was dying very steadily. Freeza was functioning with battle power loss and injuries prior, enough to the point of being able to fight with Goku, but once that attack hit, he was finished. He couldn't even move. Once Freeza received Goku's energy, he was able to move. That attack created a deficit in battle power that Goku had to restore in order for Freeza to have survived. There wouldn't even be a point to write that in if that weren't the case. The injuries didn't affect the energy he gained? I'm more than positive the energy was affected by not only that, but the fact he was still in "100%". Even if you choose not to believe something so utterly simple, you can't deny the fact that that injury is the sole reason Freeza needed Goku's energy in the first place.

Plus, Freeza is severely weakened by that point, and he's still in 100%, which means that that in itself is 100% based off his own numerical system.

I just don't agree with such a strict interpretation of the Super Saiyan multiplier, because of that hidden power aspect. You basically have a huge amount of power, that hasn't been used yet, so I just don't see a huge part of it being inaccesible once you actually tap into it. Do note that the above only applied to Goku's first transformation, because he hadn't used and lost his Super Saiyan power beforehand.

Exactly how can one lose energy from their multiplied transformation? Are you implying that if he lost energy in SSJ, his multiplier would be x49 and so on? Beyond that, even if Goku had an untapped x50 transformation, what's it being applied to? His base strength, which is weakened. Are you saying that SSJ acts on it's own accord beyond all that's ever stated and implied?

[Bussani]

When Goku did nothing but charge a his Kamehameha in the air against Cell, and soon thereafter fired it at the character in question, he appeared visibly weakened. I also believe it's mentioned that Goku lost an amount of chi from firing that wave, in which the same is said for Cell tanking the hit. Goku and Cell are around the same level upon sustaining their injuries. Cell is given a Senzu Bean because he's weakened after all, which therefore proves that Goku is weakened, granted it's stated. All Goku did was fire chi from his body, which weakened him.

I always thought that was because he put everything he had into the attack, using up a bunch of his stamina in one go. It's not really proof that everything a character does in battle reduces the maximum they're capable of. But we might just have to agree to disagree on it.

[Perfect]

Maybe, but if Goku did really put "everything he had", then he wouldn't have been able to have his final round with Cell before conceding defeat. He was still able to fire chi blasts, but he wasn't even on par with any of the Cell Juniors, and is credited by his comrades as weakened.