Do the die-hards really hate GT?

[Rory]

How was Freeza not a one trick pony?

Transform
Transform
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I found him extraordinary dull since even Super Buu could think u plans and make his powerups interesting by working for them. Cell of course did the same. Freeza would just yank more power out of his ass whenever he was losing or fighting evenly.

Firstly, I said interesting character. He's a tyrannical monster, who wouldn't think twice about genocide, nevermind killing children. Yet, he keeps a certain upper-class demeanour, he'll talk to you before a fight, verbally toy with you for a little while, he gets some sick enjoyment out of it. He's got his crownies, but his right-hand men all seem to be a part of his formality, or even a game, 'cause he sure as hell doesn't need any of them, considering the power gap. Yet under his exterior, he's actually a coward, terrified of a legend that someone will one day rise to face, and overwhelm him. He killed an entire race, just because of that. Not above grovelling for his life, and stabbing you in the back for giving him mercy, Freeza is truly a despicable character, a fantastic villain.
As for transform-transform-transform.... come on. He transformed a lot, but how many attacks were seen between those transformations? From the Fureeza Catta (<3SuperDBZ), to that... exploding bubble thing he traps Gokuu in, and right down to impaling Kuririn with his horns (and awesome speed), Freeza's anything but a one trick pony, he just happens to use said trick 3 times.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Here's what I can come up with, here we go; Black Star Balls should not exist after God merged with Piccolo.

Exactly the opposite: The Ultimate Dragon Balls should exist after Kami merged with Piccolo, since they were created when Kami & Daimao were still one being. So, when Kami & Piccolo became one again, they were reactivated.

The Dragon Radar was used to find the balls... hey, hey GT, why didn't that signal get picked up before?

Because they were hidden inside a magical godly temple. We have seen the signal blocked again by special human-made materials, why not inside God's temple?

Beings in far-off planets able to match the heroes of the Dragon Ball universe after the Boo saga (this is bullshit, whether you call it a plot-hole or not).

Yeah, GT is completely fucked up in terms of powers, but these aren't plot-holes, just bullshit. Redgic, a random alien, being near Boo level is ridiculous, not to mention Goku being at Boo's level in just SSJ. Vegeta was possibly near this level too. Pan being above Dr. Gero & laying in the ground Rild with a punch in his face, she could even be at Cell's level. How the hell is this possible? GT Perfect Files say that Saiyans inherit their parent's strength, which explains why untrained 4 year-old Gohan was stronger than Goku, and Goten & Trunks being near Goku's & Vegeta's level (without counting SSJ2 & SSJ3). Pan was the daughter of Ultimate Gohan. So, she inherited her father's power, but she hasn't became as strong as Gohan.

Gohan transforms into a Super Saiyan post his Rou Kai power-up (he lost it 'cause he doesn't train does not sit well with me).

It's obviously because he didn't train, even Vegeta surpassed him. Even though the GT Perfect Files said that Gohan kept training, I believe that he stopped training during the 10 years time-skip in DBZ, lost the power-up, and restarted his training in the 5 years timeskip between DBZ & GT. It makes sense when you want to have as less as possible plot-holes.

There's wild power inconsistencies, such as child -Gokuu punching Super #17 across the planet (while he couldn't hurt him in Super Saiyan 4)

Ryu-ken is Goku's strongest technique according to him, and he did it when #17 was wide-open, unable to move due to him absorbing #18's ki blasts, and he was obviously more sensitive when he was absorbing ki attacks.

child Gokuu toying with Freeza and Cell in base (come on, "he got stronger" is pretty questionable here).

Like it or not, Goku did get a lot stronger. Goku said that Rild was equal (or stronger? Someone please confirm this.) to Majin Boo, and Goku could handle him in SSJ, so that makes SSJ Goku at Boo's level, and base Goku a lot stronger than Cell, not to mention Freeza. It's ridiculous, but not a plot-hole.

Vegeta's 'stache is kind of a plot-hole, but hey, Nappa had hair in the Bardock special, so it's not exactly a huge one.

Vegeta said that Saiyan's hair doesn't change their shape since the day they are born. No one ever said that Saiyans can't cut their hair, can't grow facial hair, or get bald by aging. All 3 of those cases have happened in the manga. Taopaipai cut a little of Goku's hair with his sword, later they grew up into their original shape. Nappa was said by Toriyama that he went bald, and Nappa has facial hair. Don't tell me you believe that he was born with facial hair.

Characters flat-out idiocy might not be a plot-hole, but Trunks and Goten not fusing... yet talking about the awesome power of fusion is a pretty damn big plot mess up to me.

They didn't use Fusion against Baby because (fucking) Goku said them that it would be useless. Against Super #17, they didn't use it because they were stupid. Stupidity isn't a plot-hole.

Kuririn was revived with Earth's Dragon Balls.... again, yeah, that shouldn't be able to happen.

It was the final, special wish, so it seems that because of that, he could break the rules. Even the original #17 came back to life.

Oob wears headgear in the Tenka-ichi Budokai.

It could be cheap plastic, so they allowed him to wear it. Or maybe the rules have changed. It's not such a serious plot-hole.

Artificial Humans in hell (this one doesn't really bother me as much, but still, any hole's a goal).

That's a plot-hole, but the only non-human-based Artificial Humans we saw were #19 & Metalic, and they didn't have any major role, so it's not such a serious plot-hole. Dr. Gero was still part human, so he can stay in Hell.

[Nikkolas]

How about this one. I'm not sure if it's a plothole but it's something I've wondered about.

The Manga, Anime and Movies all exist as their own continuity. They're simply irreconcilable.

GT obviously follows the Movie continuity since I'm pretty sure Cooler was one of the people who busted out of Hell.

Now wasn't the South Galaxy completely wiped out by Broly in Movie 8?

So how were they gathering energy from all four galaxies for the Universal Genki Dama?

[Gaffer Tape]

But the problem is that the Z Movies really don't have their own continuity, though. Well, not in an easily reconcilable way. The DB movies exist in their own continuity... well, the first three. They tell their own story, and they can be watched independently of anything else and feel complete. The Z movies draw on the story of the TV series up to that point... somewhat. I mean, a lot of details can't and don't fit in the continuity of the TV series, but they still rely on it for knowledge of events, if that makes any sense. They certainly can't be watched in sequence without anything else and be understood as a story. They're just random... things, and the less deep thinking you try to do about them, the less headache-inducing it is.

But if you say GT is part of some movie continuity based solely on Coola, then that makes the TV series as a whole part of that continuity because Haiya Dragon is in several episodes of the TV series, and don't forget Garlic Jr. But Haiya Dragon shows up in movies that can't in any way be reconciled with the plot of the TV series, so you either have to assume this is some other, alternate reality Haiya Dragon, or just ignore the huge, nonsensical cross-continuity, and Coola is the same way, I would wager.

[Nex Carnifex]

Like?

Pretty much the entire intelligence/power showing of Goku, Trunks and Pan in the first arc. Then the rest of the series rarely shows them up to par to how powerful they should be at this point. If Kid Buu could casually blast planets into dust at rapid speeds by the end of Z, then by the end of GT blowing up a planet DEFINITELY should not be a big deal and require a minute of talking and charging (Omega Shenron's minus energy ball). Also, although you can't necessarily call it a plot hole, Goku's fight with Ledgic pretty much confirmed some random stupid looking metro sexual alien with no reason to be strong whatsoever somehow is stronger than Perfect Cell, who could destroy a Solar System. It's shit like that that makes GT utterly ridiculous, they simply didn't continue the story sensibly. It wasn't entertaining either, so really it just shouldn't exist, but unfortunately it does.

None of those are really plot holes..just more of things you don't care for and personally find dumb for whatever reason. Nitpicks like Omega Shenron's attack could be said about any villain in the series. (and that example you used can be found in Z all the time)

To say GT is not without flows would be a bit of a stretch, but some people really become venomous about the subject. I've seen people argue to death that Vegeta having a mustache and shorter hair is another GT plothole..which is just flat out ridiculous if you just think about it for a second.

How characters act and their strength being inconsistent is an inconsistency yes. You say it was just as inconsistent in Z but it just isn't the case, except some of the fillers (which consequentially were made by the people who made GT). The Dragon Ball manga had consistency with powers, by the Cell saga they were careful with powerful attacks to not blow up earth, by the end Cell was warning of destroying the solar system, by the Buu saga Kid Buu was destroying planets like nothing, clearly the destructive progression was there. GT on the other hand throws the ridiculous powers of these previous characters into a furnace and completely gets rid of the thought, no feats put the GT characters on par with the Z ones, you tell me they made a big deal about destroying a planet in Z as well? Yes with Kid Buu but Kid Buu didn't need to charge shit. The very thought of a character stronger than even Cell should not be taken as lightly as "here's another random alien, omg he's strong" THAT isn't necessarily a plot hole but it is absolutely terrible story-telling and why GT really shouldn't be part of the series.

[Aoi]

The biggest difference between GT and Z is how the characters act. Toriyama had a lot of respect for his creation and gave them a lot of common sense. You have to turn your brain off to enjoy GT. I mean, I can count maybe 15 instances where the solution is right in front of them, and yet they refuse to act on it.
For me a sequel can be as bad as it wants, so long as it respects what was established in the previous entry. Fans care about this kind of stuff. They care that the new chapter actually builds on these things. In GT, so many of these moments (I suppose) are either ignored or directly contradicted.
I always loved in DB/Z how Toriyama kept such close tabs on each character's progress; also what they knew and what they didn't know. In GT, it's just a mess.

[Aoi]

Lastly, one of the great things about DB/Z (that inspired many people I know) is how the characters reacted to these massive obstacles. It was always a new opportunity to challenge one's self and discover a new level; go on an adventure. Goku's SSJ4 transformation was the closest they ever got to getting this (sort of) right.
The stories had a lot more going for them. I see the Cell arc as a beautiful coming of age story (for Gohan). Characters often changed and evolved. We looked forward to this. In GT, they're all stagnant and not very interesting.

The rest is just a prolonged version of a typical DBZ movie. No explanation for anything. I do find parts of GT very entertaining. It just doesn't fit with the spirit of Dragon Ball and Z for me.

[Hellspawn28]

GT obviously follows the Movie continuity since I'm pretty sure Cooler was one of the people who busted out of Hell.

Now wasn't the South Galaxy completely wiped out by Broly in Movie 8?

So how were they gathering energy from all four galaxies for the Universal Genki Dama?

Well most fans believe that Coola in GT was not the same character that we saw in Movie 5 and 6. I don't think the Broly movies are even apart of GT since I remember in Movie 11 stated that Broly was causing trouble in Hell while he is nowhere to be seen in GT.

Because they were hidden inside a magical godly temple. We have seen the signal blocked again by special human-made materials, why not inside God's temple?

That does not explain how Pilaf knew about them? If the Black Star Dragon Balls have been hidden for all of these years then how come one knew about them?

[Fionordequester]

It seems as though my post got skipped over since someone is asking about plotholes in GT and doesn't seem to be aware of what I posted. So...here's a copy and paste of my post, slightly edited, if you don't mind...

My complaints can pretty much be summed up in three reasons...

1) A story that was quite often not only dull and predictable, with rather terrible pacing, but just seemed rushed at times, such as when we had Syn and Eise Shenron essentially appearing out of nowhere. Seriously, every Dragon up till that point were in completely seperate areas, and now all of a sudden we have ALL THREE OF THEM in the same exact city, just sort of chilling out. Yeah, that was kind of a weird moment in my opinion.

2) Fight choreography that was either bad, or just plain weird (most of the time...there were some good moments, such as SSJ4 Goku vs. Syn Shenron, Round 1), such as in Bebi-Goten's fight with Gohan, in which he fires a blast into the ground...then flies up, grabs Gohan, and then...flies straight into the blast, no doubt either pointlessly injuring himself as well as Gohan, or doing almost no damage at all since the blast might've lost most of it's power by then.

And then we have pretty much all of 4:13-4:52 here...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-UOj2gQY0U

...and this bit between 2:42-3:00 here...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVKZW8eq ... ure=relmfu

...filled with what I believe to be some of the most hilariously bad choreography I think I've ever seen in Dragon Ball Z. Say what you want about fights like the Garlic Junior Saga fights, at least when they're fighting in those, you can actually clearly see the punch as opposed to it being totally obscured by someone's face or something...

3) The massive amount of plot holes, even discounting the continuity issues with Dragon Ball Z, mostly power level related. Seriously, how in the world was SSJ Goku able to compete on an equal level with Super 17# when we had already established that even Majuub, who was able to hold his own against Bebi-Vegeta, who SSJ3 Goku couldn't even so much as land a punch on, was completely helpless against 17#? By that logic we should have...

Super #17>Bebi-Vegeta>Majuub>SSJ3 Goku>SSJ Goku

...and yet we have #17 and SSJ Goku fighting equally...what the heck?!

Of course, I could write a whole thread about all the things I find wrong with GT, but I think most of my complaints boil down to those three basic points.

[goku the krump dancer]

Why is it that a lot of people who like GT assume that the only reason people don't feel the same way as them is that they're choosing to dislike it to seem like "real fans"? Is it really so hard to believe that there are people who actually don't like the show?

I can accept any and everyone's opinion no matter what the subject may be, not pointing fingers but I can't held but think of the term "Jumping on the Bandwagon" when i see the most generic negative views on GT or Broly with out any real statements to back it up.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Just as an off-topic side-note, there's no real reason to hate Broli, since, when you think about it, he wasn't any worse than most of the other movie villains. It's just that many of the Broli fanboys and video games overrate him, causing many fans that barely gave him a second look to hate him just by association. It's gotten to the point that the Broli haters annoy me more than the Broli fanboys, because at least with the latter, I can just avoid them by not reading the comments on YouTube videos about Broli, or stupid battle power-obsessed forums.

I don't hate Broli, I find it hard hate anything Dragon Ball related these days (apart from the Sparking! series of course, but I just keep that up for old times sake ). I don't see as many Broli fanboy's as I used to, so I can't even be bothered by that.... maybe I'm just not looking in the right places. I think it's the massive amount of over-exposure he had during the early 2000's (that, and y'know, 3 movies), he left a bad taste in my mouth.

His three movies are the fault of Toei themselves anyway, and his over-exposure in games the fault of Bandai/Dimps/Spike, but the third movie didn't really have him in it. It was a botched clone that turned into a B-movie monster. They could've replaced him with Tullece, Slug or Bojack, change the plot around a bit (like they did for Coola's return, even though it ended up defeating the irony of Coola's defeat in his first film, but it's not as if they hadn't already done that with Broli by now), and it'd be the same thing. I guess "Bio-Broli" was just a cheap marketing grab, since people might not have tuned in to watch if they'd said from the start that the heroes were fighting Walking Pile of Sludge.

For what it's worth, I always liked him representing the concept of the "true" Legendary Super Saiyan, bringing it back to the fore with someone that appropriately fitted the legend. And his backstory was relatively interesting. If people want to complain that he held a grudge against Gokuu just because he cried, annoying him, when they were both babies, well...Broli's insane. That's his shtick. Of course he'd be like that. Of course he beats up Gokuu and co. for no good reason other than "You pissed me off with your crying when we were babies. Oh, and I like to beat people up."

Insanity aside, he shouldn't be able to remember that, or know his (Gokuu's) name, as he was a baby. It just really feels like they were stretching for something with this one.
The "Legendary Super Saiyan" thing always bugged me, but that's only 'cause I was (and still am) a super Gokuu fanboy, so I always like to think he's "The Legend".

Well, he wasn't a normal baby. Normal babies don't get pissed off by other babies' crying, they aren't born with a battle power of 10k, they normally can't survive in space through a ki barrier, so it's plausible that he has enhanced memory or some shit. Hey, I just remembered something: Saiyans do seem to have great memory, when they're sent to planets as babies to exterminate them, and Raditz was annoyed that Gokuu hadn't done so, but his head injury made him lose all memory of who he'd been before and what his mission was. If it wasn't for that knock, perhaps he would've remembered Raditz, Broli, etc.

As for the whole "Legendary Super Saiyan" thing, again, you've got to blame Toei for that, which they kind of started it off long before DBZ Movie #8, with it originally being characterized as a Golden Oozaru (later appearing in GT) and then "Pseudo Super Saiyan" in DBZ Movie #4, which was treated as the "true" Super Saiyan.

I always thought that Gokuu was the real "Legendary Super Saiyan" too, but Toei like to mess with things so they can tell some contrived story as an excuse for one explosive fight after another. I wouldn't think about it too much, but I still thought it was interesting.

Anyway, not targeting you personally, and what you said wasn't even that inflammatory, but I just felt like saying it.

Hey, I gave my opinion, and you gave yours! That's what these forums are all about!

Yeah, so we're cool.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

How about this one. I'm not sure if it's a plothole but it's something I've wondered about.

The Manga, Anime and Movies all exist as their own continuity. They're simply irreconcilable.

GT obviously follows the Movie continuity since I'm pretty sure Cooler was one of the people who busted out of Hell.

Now wasn't the South Galaxy completely wiped out by Broly in Movie 8?

So how were they gathering energy from all four galaxies for the Universal Genki Dama?

Movie 5 doesn't have so serious inconsistencies, if you take as canon only Movie 5 (and Movie 1, due to DBZ filler) in GT, then it's OK I think. And besides, he appeared for just a second on a TV screen. It's not that big deal.

As for the Movie continuity, only Movie 12 unifies almost all the movies, so if GT had, for example, Janemba, we would have a huge shit in our heads.

[Nex Carnifex]

It seems as though my post got skipped over since someone is asking about plotholes in GT and doesn't seem to be aware of what I posted. So...here's a copy and paste of my post, slightly edited, if you don't mind...

My complaints can pretty much be summed up in three reasons...

1) A story that was quite often not only dull and predictable, with rather terrible pacing, but just seemed rushed at times, such as when we had Syn and Eise Shenron essentially appearing out of nowhere. Seriously, every Dragon up till that point were in completely seperate areas, and now all of a sudden we have ALL THREE OF THEM in the same exact city, just sort of chilling out. Yeah, that was kind of a weird moment in my opinion.

2) Fight choreography that was either bad, or just plain weird (most of the time...there were some good moments, such as SSJ4 Goku vs. Syn Shenron, Round 1), such as in Bebi-Goten's fight with Gohan, in which he fires a blast into the ground...then flies up, grabs Gohan, and then...flies straight into the blast, no doubt either pointlessly injuring himself as well as Gohan, or doing almost no damage at all since the blast might've lost most of it's power by then.

And then we have pretty much all of 4:13-4:52 here...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-UOj2gQY0U

...and this bit between 2:42-3:00 here...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVKZW8eq ... ure=relmfu

...filled with what I believe to be some of the most hilariously bad choreography I think I've ever seen in Dragon Ball Z. Say what you want about fights like the Garlic Junior Saga fights, at least when they're fighting in those, you can actually clearly see the punch as opposed to it being totally obscured by someone's face or something...

3) The massive amount of plot holes, even discounting the continuity issues with Dragon Ball Z, mostly power level related. Seriously, how in the world was SSJ Goku able to compete on an equal level with Super 17# when we had already established that even Majuub, who was able to hold his own against Bebi-Vegeta, who SSJ3 Goku couldn't even so much as land a punch on, was completely helpless against 17#? By that logic we should have...

Super #17>Bebi-Vegeta>Majuub>SSJ3 Goku>SSJ Goku

...and yet we have #17 and SSJ Goku fighting equally...what the heck?!

Of course, I could write a whole thread about all the things I find wrong with GT, but I think most of my complaints boil down to those three basic points.

lol good points

[Bussani]

I can accept any and everyone's opinion no matter what the subject may be, not pointing fingers but I can't held but think of the term "Jumping on the Bandwagon" when i see the most generic negative views on GT or Broly with out any real statements to back it up.

Do you need statements to back up an opinion? Sometimes people just don't like something. You don't always have to rationalize it. Accusing people of jumping on a bandwagon for disliking something you like just seems like a form of denial to me.

[goku the krump dancer]

I can accept any and everyone's opinion no matter what the subject may be, not pointing fingers but I can't held but think of the term "Jumping on the Bandwagon" when i see the most generic negative views on GT or Broly with out any real statements to back it up.

Do you need statements to back up an opinion? Sometimes people just don't like something. You don't always have to rationalize it. Accusing people of jumping on a bandwagon for disliking something you like just seems like a form of denial to me.

I'm far from being in denial. I know GT isn't great but like I said, I find it watchable whenever I'm in the mood for it. I mean
you don't really need any statements to back up your opinion but by backing up your claims you prevent yourself from sounding like a cheerleader depending on the situation. You have every right to dislike/hate GT just like how I have every right to like it, its just my personal preference I'm not saying your wrong for disliking it.

[Nex Carnifex]

In Z they logically and acrobatically built up why the next character was stronger than the next. Frieza was a universal tyrant of course he's strong, Cell had everyone including Frieza's DNA it makes sense he's superior, Buu was a legendary evil that had to be sealed away by the gods of the universe clearly he is a super badass. Then in GT Ledgic, who the fuck is he, omg he can beat up Goku? So he's somehow stronger than a universal tyrant who was believed to be the strongest in the universe? No, 1000x stronger since he's stronger than Super Perfect Cell who could easily wtf pwn Frieza with his finger. So why is Ledgic this strong? GT doesn't know or say why, they just put him there to troll us since he looks so stupid. Then moar robots, this time stronger than the most legendary evil in the universe? Why? No reason, just that GT doesn't know how to develop the story in a logical and acrobatic way like Akira Toriyama did, it needs to pull things out of its ass, it doesn't climb the ladder bringing out a bad guy who has an even more cosmic background than Buu, just says here are some robots and dragons they are stronger than Buu fight them.

[Zephyr]

Then in GT Ledgic, who the fuck is he, omg he can beat up Goku? So he's somehow stronger than a universal tyrant who was believed to be the strongest in the universe? No, 1000x stronger since he's stronger than Super Perfect Cell who could easily wtf pwn Frieza with his finger. So why is Ledgic this strong? GT doesn't know or say why, they just put him there to troll us since he looks so stupid. Then moar robots, this time stronger than the most legendary evil in the universe? Why? No reason, just that GT doesn't know how to develop the story in a logical and acrobatic way like Akira Toriyama did, it needs to pull things out of its ass, it doesn't climb the ladder bringing out a bad guy who has an even more cosmic background than Buu, just says here are some robots and dragons they are stronger than Buu fight them.

I personally thought that in terms of believably building up to stronger and stronger foes, GT's main villains (and even some minor ones like Rild) did fine:

- Ledgic: Absolute non-issue. Goku was toying with him the entire time.

- Machine Mutants: Gero was capable of creating Artificial Humans far beyond the Universal Tyrant's power using Earthling technology. I don't see how it's so farfetched for a far more technologically advanced civilization to be able to produce even far stronger foes, even ones as strong as the Legendary Evil.

- Baby Vegeta: Leader of this technologically advanced civilization, parasitically possessing the body of Vegeta, who has had what, 15 years to train by this point? This one seems justified.

- Super 17: Blending of Gero's advanced Artificial Human technology with Myuu's Machine Mutant technology. The logic here seems self explanatory.

- Evil Dragons: These guys I feel all should have been as incredibly strong as the final 3 were. Evil manifestations of the sources of power that were able to magically deus ex machina things from chaos back to a good state, nearly every damn story arc. It's believable to me that that same source of power, with a 180 degrees shift in morality, would be able to damn near deus ex machina things from a good state to a pretty damn chaotic state.

[Nex Carnifex]

Then in GT Ledgic, who the fuck is he, omg he can beat up Goku? So he's somehow stronger than a universal tyrant who was believed to be the strongest in the universe? No, 1000x stronger since he's stronger than Super Perfect Cell who could easily wtf pwn Frieza with his finger. So why is Ledgic this strong? GT doesn't know or say why, they just put him there to troll us since he looks so stupid. Then moar robots, this time stronger than the most legendary evil in the universe? Why? No reason, just that GT doesn't know how to develop the story in a logical and acrobatic way like Akira Toriyama did, it needs to pull things out of its ass, it doesn't climb the ladder bringing out a bad guy who has an even more cosmic background than Buu, just says here are some robots and dragons they are stronger than Buu fight them.

I personally thought that in terms of believably building up to stronger and stronger foes, GT's main villains (and even some minor ones like Rild) did fine:

- Ledgic: Absolute non-issue. Goku was toying with him the entire time.

- Machine Mutants: Gero was capable of creating Artificial Humans far beyond the Universal Tyrant's power using Earthling technology. I don't see how it's so farfetched for a far more technologically advanced civilization to be able to produce even far stronger foes, even ones as strong as the Legendary Evil.

- Baby Vegeta: Leader of this technologically advanced civilization, parasitically possessing the body of Vegeta, who has had what, 15 years to train by this point? This one seems justified.

- Super 17: Blending of Gero's advanced Artificial Human technology with Myuu's Machine Mutant technology. The logic here seems self explanatory.

- Evil Dragons: These guys I feel all should have been as incredibly strong as the final 3 were. Evil manifestations of the sources of power that were able to magically deus ex machina things from chaos back to a good state, nearly every damn story arc. It's believable to me that that same source of power, with a 180 degrees shift in morality, would be able to damn near deus ex machina things from a good state to a pretty damn chaotic state.

-Goku was clearly not toying with Ledgic in his base form, when he got kicked you could see in his face it hurt, he was trying, but even Ledgic admitted he himself was holding back so yeah apparently he was ridiculously strong. Then Ledgic took a Kamehameha from SS(2?) Goku and was barely damaged. So Ledgic>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Super Perfect Cell

-Gero was not using "earth" technology, he was using technology from his own genius creation. So now we have someone doing the same thing. It was sort of fine with Gero, he discovered an infinite energy source and somehow made really powerful robots way beyond a galactic tyrannt recognized throughout the universe, he had also been spying on the Z-fighters progression for a while, this was further developed with Trunk's alternate timeline detailing how his creation was such a breakthrough it destroyed the Z fighters in at least one scenario. But its just plain bad storytelling for Myuu to show up with some moar goofy robots conveniently just stronger than an ancient evil that took the gods of the universe to seal away, no development he just made them and they are stronger since they come later in the series, they never take into consideration what it means to be this strong, they just keep churning out robots, giant worms, and dancing people to somehow pose a threat to nigh relativistic solar system exploding ultra gods.

-Baby Vegeta was one that did make sense, though its kind of cheating because Vegeta has already been built up to be as strong as he was previously, but this made a lot more sense than everything else. Still sort of a rerun of Majin Vegeta though.

-Gero's technology should be obsolete by now, I don't see why combining it with moar robots suddenly makes it stronger than what was stronger than what was stronger than a previously cosmic threat the gods of the universe couldn't deal with. Just because?

-I guess you can say we don't know the nature of the dragon balls, but weren't they just magic orbs created by a weak namek that weren't even powerful enough to kill Raditz? Its only a fact they pulled these dragons out of their asses, they could have expanded on the nature of the nameks themselves to perhaps explain this strange random quality of the dragon balls they were introducing, but no, it just was how it was because that's how it is with gt.

It would have been pretty cool if instead of making robots and stuff appear out of nowhere and be a conveniently scaled threat, they thought of something that would actually fit the bar set by Majin Buu, possibly something from a different universe that destroyed its own universe and is now traveling between universes to satisfy its hunger for destruction. Or perhaps connect the entire deity class system to something larger, and connect that to the various magical species that inhabit the DB universe and use that to explain why wtf super dragons are coming out of the pathetic non-powerful dragon balls instead of being stupid and utterly linear in logic.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

-Gero's technology should be obsolete by now, I don't see why combining it with moar robots suddenly makes it stronger than what was stronger than what was stronger than a previously cosmic threat the gods of the universe couldn't deal with. Just because?

I don't know if it was said in the dub, but in the original, Dr. Gero explains that #17 was going to be stronger than Cell, but didn't manage to complete him. With Dr. Myuu's Mashine Mutant technology, he created the Hell Fighter #17, so that he will merge with the original, so that he will become complete.

[Nex Carnifex]

-Gero's technology should be obsolete by now, I don't see why combining it with moar robots suddenly makes it stronger than what was stronger than what was stronger than a previously cosmic threat the gods of the universe couldn't deal with. Just because?

I don't know if it was said in the dub, but in the original, Dr. Gero explains that #17 was going to be stronger than Cell, but didn't manage to complete him. With Dr. Myuu's Mashine Mutant technology, he created the Hell Fighter #17, so that he will merge with the original, so that he will become complete.

Where was this ever hinted at remotely before in dragon ball, did they just pull this out of nowhere as another unjustified excuse to make a new enemy? Well there goes the whole, "Myuu was advanced technology" justification, since now apparently 17 was not just supposed to have been stronger than Cell, but apparently 10000000x stronger than Super Perfect Cell...according to GT of course. That's a bit hard to imagine, given the outrageous power gap, you'd wish they would explain the huge difference instead of throw it at you with no explanation. They seem to do this a lot in GT, I wonder if it has to do with the quality of storytelling. Good thing Goku was there to save the world again though, conveniently with a new transformation.