Best and Worst Animators

[Gaffer Tape]

Hmm. I'd say Seigasha is guiltier of that. I can more easily tell if they did an episode, not through the models, but because the characters' limbs move as if they're made of rubber.

[DarkPrince_92]

"Rubber" do you have an example? I wouldn't say rubber. You gotta tell me what you mean, because Seigasha is my favorite (not trying to argue, I just wanna know what you mean).

[JulieYBM]

Hmm. I'd say Seigasha is guiltier of that. I can more easily tell if they did an episode, not through the models, but because the characters' limbs move as if they're made of rubber.

That may be because of Tate Naoki (Dragon Ball Z; One Piece, and Toriko). He was originally an in-betweener but was promoted to key animation during the later Namek stuff. Still Seigasha is one of my favorite studios. Hisada Kazuya and Shimanuki Mashiro were really good at giving the characters fluid, but detailed/manly forms, which is perfect for the later story arcs.

Animation is at it's best when it doesn't necessarily try to stay on model

But an animator wants to still stay true to the model when going off model (paradox??) The in-betweens can take liberties but should still be close to the source. An arm can go wonky for a couple of frames and make the motion look very fluid but overdoing that looks terrible. The triangle crap episodes take way too much liberty in that.

American cartoons rigorously try to stay on model, but that's become their very downfall. Allowing animators to go nuts allows for more indivuality and life from the animation. I do find it humorous that this is something seen so prominently in Japanese cartoons, though, considering the often 'rigid stereotypes' we apply to Japanese culture.

[Gaffer Tape]

RE: DarkPrince_92

In my opinion, and, sadly, I can't speak for the original DB series because my ability to discern the different animation studios came when I got the Dragon Boxes, Seigasha only became good starting with the Cell arc, after their staff switched around. Before that, particularly in the Freeza arc, well... I have heard people refer to it as the "caveman style," and I can't find myself disagreeing with it. I just do not like those character models, particularly the eyes, which just look goofy and slightly less than intelligent. The character models became quite superb after that, and I remember at first wondering if Toei had brought in a new studio and had dumped Seigasha altogether.

But then I noticed it. Even though the characters themselves looked much better, the way they moved was exactly the same. It's hard for me to describe. It's just something you have to see. But any time they move, their limbs just seems to stretch. I remember there was an early part of the battle with Goku and Freeza, and there's this close-up shot where Goku flies in for a punch, and the animation of his arm reaching back and then jutting forward... it's just rubbery. And then later on, another one that's always stuck out in my mind is when Gohan and Trunks arrive at the time machine Blooma found. The way Trunks lands... again, just rubbery, like his legs reach out to meet the ground, and his torso just bends unnaturally. It just looks really odd to me, and, even when the art got really good, and it made it harder for me to tell just by looking that it was Seigasha, I could immediately tell whenever motion happened.

RE: JulieYBM

Thanks for that clarification. I think that might have been the first time I ever noticed that, and that was back when season 3 started in 1999 because I think at least part of dub episode 54 was done by Seigasha, and I remember thinking that, "Geez, this looks a lot different from how it used to, even though it shouldn't since in Japan this would have just been the next week." But, yeah, it is around that point in the story I started noticing rubber bodies. Good to know what the reason is.

[kei17]

Agreed. There can only be so much liberty between keys and inbetweens, Triangle Type just needs to die....I'd much rather have some decent animation from the better half of Last House in replacement.

Studio Live definitely is the worst to me because characters are pretty off model and even their motions aren't impressive at all. Though Kan'no Toshiyuki, a key animator belonged to Studio Live, is very good at keeping characters on model, his animation itself has never impressed me. His key animation looks underwhelming when it's in motion.

[DarkPrince_92]

Oho, trust me no one likes the caveman style, that's the one part of Seigasha I can't stand; one filler scene where Goku Kamehameha'd lava and Frieza was about to attack, the way he turned around made his neck EXTREMELY LONG. Other than that, I guess a lot of Seigasha scenes are over just exaggerated but I guess I didn't mind the rubber

[paparapa!!]

Thanks for all the info guys. Um, I was wondering, could you post some screenshots of some of those animators/studios? I'm sorry, but I forgot to ask for that. I would really like to be able to identify them.

Also, I hear a lot about characters being "on-model" or "off-model" in terms of chacter design. What I want to know is what is considered "on-model" anyway and why are the allowes to be "off-model"?

I look forward to any responses.

[Attitudefan]

Oho, trust me no one likes the caveman style, that's the one part of Seigasha I can't stand; one filler scene where Goku Kamehameha'd lava and Freeza was about to attack, the way he turned around made his neck EXTREMELY LONG. Other than that, I guess a lot of Seigasha scenes are over just exaggerated but I guess I didn't mind the rubber

They were really awesome in Dragonball and the Saiyan arc unlike later on in the Freeza arc.

[DarkPrince_92]

They were really awesome in Dragonball and the Saiyan arc unlike later on in the Freeza arc.

Yeah I agree, the way Seigasha handled Goku vs Vegeta really stood out from the rest of the series.


@paparapa! There should be a link on the first page identifying the studios.

[kei17]

Oho, trust me no one likes the caveman style, that's the one part of Seigasha I can't stand; one filler scene where Goku Kamehameha'd lava and Freeza was about to attack, the way he turned around made his neck EXTREMELY LONG. Other than that, I guess a lot of Seigasha scenes are over just exaggerated but I guess I didn't mind the rubber

That is Takeuchi Tomekichi's style. I do understand why you dislike his style, but I can't blame him - he sure was like a "caveman" animator compared to the others. Maybe I said the same thing here before, but let me say this again. He probably was the oldest member among the staff involved in the DB series. He was sent to WWII battle for Guadalcanal and injured there, then started studying art after the war ended. He once joined Toei Douga, and later established his own studio: Seigasha. He was old-styled and not as good as younger animators, but he greatly influenced the styles of younger members such as Shimanuki Masahiro and Tate Naoki (it's obvious to me). You can blame him and dislike his style; it's up to you. But keep in mind that Seigasha and other talented animators would've not existed without him.

The character models became quite superb after that, and I remember at first wondering if Toei had brought in a new studio and had dumped Seigasha altogether.

No, they didn't. The same members worked until the end of GT. Yamashita Kei(Megumi?) newly became a key animator during the Buu arc though.

I remember there was an early part of the battle with Goku and Freeza, and there's this close-up shot where Goku flies in for a punch, and the animation of his arm reaching back and then jutting forward... it's just rubbery. And then later on, another one that's always stuck out in my mind is when Gohan and Trunks arrive at the time machine Blooma found. The way Trunks lands... again, just rubbery, like his legs reach out to meet the ground, and his torso just bends unnaturally.

I'm pretty sure you are talking about Hisada Kazuya's style. He was hugely influenced by Kanada Yoshinori, who invented a new animation style that allows you to vividly animate characters with much fewer frames. Here's an example of his style: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eg8ORPUf6Q0 He intentionally animated characters in an unnatural way to accentuate their moves. It was a great invention that made many Japanese animators follow him, and such followers are now called "Kanada-kei", which can be translated as "Kanada-styled". Hisada is one of them.

[JulieYBM]

Oh wow, he was talking about Hisada? Whoops. >_>

But yeah, Hisada's stuff is great, espicially in how he uses angles. It's a shame he doesn't really animated much anymore, although I guess that's what happens when you're Chief Animator of a series like One Piece.

Speaking of Yamashita Megumi, she's now an animation supervisor on One Piece.

[DarkPrince_92]

Kazuya was probably the best out of Seigasha if anything, although I still favor Shimanuki Mashiro's style more. But I never knew about Kanada (lol Canada), I can definitely see his style in anime today.

[Attitudefan]

Yeah, it's Hisada's stuff I liked the best. It's one of the best styles/animators in the Dragonball anime

[csl002]

You can definitely see the Kanada style in Hisada's stuff with how he poses the characters and moves them from one pose to the next too. Very Kanada-like. His effects are also pretty good. Good animator; definitely one of the best in DBZ.
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Diverging a bit, how's the animation in the DBZ movies? I've never seen any of them (yeah...) I know that action animator extraordinaire Yutaka Nakamura (who today is probably one of the best animators in Japan) worked on Cooler's Revenge, but that was from his really early days so his cuts probably won't be that good. Aside from that I'm pretty clueless about the movies, aside from Yamauchi directing several of them.

[Attitudefan]

The first four DBZ movies and the early Dragonball movies had great animation. It flowed very nicely and there was never a really crude looking drawing.

Movie 6 has really terrible animation and in-between frames. They are very sloppy and poorly drawn. The animation itself is more stiff.

The last movies in DBZ are animated very nicely and I like them.

[son veku]

what animators worked on DB ep 66
that ep looks very good to me
Its either 66 or 65

[JulieYBM]

Episode #65 and episode #66. Funnily enough, these are the first two animation supervisors of Dragon Ball Z.

Also, good God. How did Aoshima do all of the key animation in episode #66 alone?

[son veku]

Episode #65 and episode #66. Funnily enough, these are the first two animation supervisors of Dragon Ball Z.

Also, good God. How did Aoshima do all of the key animation in episode #66 alone?

Do you mean like:
all the different characters with very detailed gun's?
Groups of people shooting at the same time?

I just watched this episode today in Madman's sets, and it still looks good.
There is a lot less grain than other episodes

(it was ep 66)

[JulieYBM]

Episode #65 and episode #66. Funnily enough, these are the first two animation supervisors of Dragon Ball Z.

Also, good God. How did Aoshima do all of the key animation in episode #66 alone?

Do you mean like:
all the different characters with very detailed gun's?
Groups of people shooting at the same time?

No, 'key animation' meaning every key frame of the whole episode, not certain cuts/scenes. He was the only credited key animator, which is absolutely insane.

[DarkPrince_92]

From my experience, keyframes are made for certain scenes by the key frame animators. The keyframe animators don't work on the entire episode.