Question about strategic uses of "Ki" in the series-

[Aoi]

I think the usage of Ki is not something that's ever been fully explained in Dragon Ball and how it's used during the fights. I have a few questions and maybe others can add their own based on some mysteries/inconsistencies within the series. The first one is something that's bugged me for years.

1. How is Ki used defensively? Is one naturally strong enough to avoid being damaged by a Ki technique or does one need to "charge" one's Ki in order to raise their defenses?
*Example 1: Muten Roshi (during the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai) notes how naturally resilient Goku is to major attacks. He is able to survive all of Tien's and Junior's attacks head on.
Theory #1= Characters, if strong enough, can naturally defend against any major attack. IE: You can't imagine Superman being killed in his sleep by a knife wound.

*Example 2: Trunks slicing Freeza in half.
- This changed my perception of how Ki is used. I always had the impression that the only reason Trunk's sword did any damage (as oppose to being caught in a planet's explosion) is because Freeza was caught off guard without his defenses high.

There are various points in the series where we'd see a character being hurt by a surprise attack (IE: Buu many times being blown apart) just because the attack had caught them by surprise. At other times, the they seem to survive the same attack once they are ready for it. Take Gohan having his arm broken by Cell's more "piercing" Ki blast, while even multiple Kienzan attacks had 0 effect minutes earlier.

Theory #2= Characters, no matter how potentially skilled or strong, can be killed by any Ki attack IF 1) they are not in an "engaged/fighting" state or 2) Caught off guard.

What do you think?

[Piccolo Daimao]

I always had the impression that the reason such superhuman warriors like Trunks used a sword in the first place is because, putting ki behind the force of the sword, they could use it offensively in various ways that you couldn't with your bare hands and feet. I.e. Trunks slicing up Freeza. It sounds strange, but that's probably what Toriyama was going for (other than "it looks cool").

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I agree with Daimao on the Trunks bit.

I'm not really sure how it's used defensively, but I do believe, in many situations, the warrior needs to mount up a defense of some sort when a very powerful attack is coming his way--even if the defender is the stronger of the two. Freeza probably did this (the shocked look on his face could've just been in regards to the size of Vegeta's attack) when Vegeta used his full-power attack against him, or when Raditz stopped Goku's Kame-Hame-Ha. Examples like Vegeta and Nappa taking Krillin's Mega Blast without flinching, Reacoom not taking a lick of damage from Vegeta's attack, Freeza taking no damage from Gohan's enraged attack despite being a bit stunned, or the Androids taking Trunks's blast while not even paying attention to the others seem to go along with the first theory.

I guess they do this by raising their Chi the moment the attack is approaching so they'll be in a good position to either repel it or take it directly. Just a guess. If they're far more powerful than the other, I assume they really don't do anything but stand there and just take it. Cell was able to take advantage of Gohan's opening, but I think that's a combination of surprise and Cell's new power altogether. I don't think I really agree with the second theory, but I never really thought about this much.

[Fox666]

I always had the impression that the reason such superhuman warriors like Trunks used a sword in the first place is because, putting ki behind the force of the sword, they could use it offensively in various ways that you couldn't with your bare hands and feet. I.e. Trunks slicing up Freeza. It sounds strange, but that's probably what Toriyama was going for (other than "it looks cool").

While Dragon Ball Online introduced the concept of putting Ki in a sword, that doesn't seems to be what Trunks does. It seems that Trunks the strength of his arms (which of course includes Ki) while swinging the sword, which is a really hard sword.

When Trunks attacked No.18, it broke because the sword wasn't strong enough. In Cold attacking Trunks case, the men wielding the sword wasn't strong enough.

[Son_Gohan]

Defense has been shown to be connected to their Ki output, and how much is being given off at a particular moment. It is evident with Vegeta coercing Krillin into injuring him to near death during the battle with Freeza, where he assures that he'd lower his battle power to the point where Krillin's attack could have an effect:

Chapter: 303 (DBZ 109), P11.1-2
Vegeta: “When we Saiyans revive from the brink of death, our strength increases! So go ahead and half-kill me! There’s no effect if I try to kill myself! You do it! Quickly! Freeza is about to perform his final transformation!”
Kuririn: “I-I could half-kill you with my power…”
Vegeta: “Don’t worry…I’ll lower my battle power to its limit…! It’s fortunate that the Namekian brat who can instantly heal people is here…”

Ki is also shown to be used in a more precise manner by concentrating it to a particular area:



Based on that, I'd gather that their resistance against these attacks would depend on the quantity of Ki and the area it's being focused upon. When the attack can be anticipated, the user is able to instinctively concentrate their Ki to the point of impact. But when caught off-guard, they lack that reaction needed to brace themselves.

[Bussani]

I agree with most of what's been said above and lean towards "theory #2" myself. Another example is during the 23rd tournament fight between Goku and Piccolo, where Piccolo basically nukes the whole island; Goku just plants his feet, gathers his ki, takes a defensive stance, and survives.

[Aoi]

Defense has been shown to be connected to their Ki output, and how much is being given off at a particular moment. It is evident with Vegeta coercing Krillin into injuring him to near death during the battle with Freeza, where he assures that he'd lower his battle power to the point where Krillin's attack could have an effect:

Chapter: 303 (DBZ 109), P11.1-2
Vegeta: “When we Saiyans revive from the brink of death, our strength increases! So go ahead and half-kill me! There’s no effect if I try to kill myself! You do it! Quickly! Freeza is about to perform his final transformation!”
Kuririn: “I-I could half-kill you with my power…”
Vegeta: “Don’t worry…I’ll lower my battle power to its limit…! It’s fortunate that the Namekian brat who can instantly heal people is here…”

Ki is also shown to be used in a more precise manner by concentrating it to a particular area:



Based on that, I'd gather that their resistance against these attacks would depend on the quantity of Ki and the area it's being focused upon. When the attack can be anticipated, the user is able to instinctively concentrate their Ki to the point of impact. But when caught off-guard, they lack that reaction needed to brace themselves.

Guys, great responses. I think the Vegeta-Krillin moment during the Freeza fight is the only point in the series where this is brought up.

[Hitiro]

Lets not forget that Goku is resilient probably because he was born on a planet that has 10x that of Earths. Saiyan bodies would have to be naturally resilient to the stress of this gravity otherwise nobody would be able to survive there with such a small powerlevel.

[hleV]

Lets not forget that Goku is resilient probably because he was born on a planet that has 10x that of Earths. Saiyan bodies would have to be naturally resilient to the stress of this gravity otherwise nobody would be able to survive there with such a small powerlevel.

Taking into consideration manga only, we know that Goku was sent away because he was weak. Maybe he had a hard time with the gravity 10x bigger than Earth's? And I doubt we know manga-Goku's birth Battle Power.

[Fox666]

He was weak for the Saiyan standards, but it's not like any normal human baby has a hard time with regular Earth gravity. Of course if the human baby was raised in a 1/10 Earth Gravity, he would have trouble returning to the regular gravity.

[hleV]

I'm just saying that we don't know for sure. Goku's birth wasn't covered by AT, was it? Having a BP as low as to be sent to a distant planet, he may have had problems with Planet Vegeta's gravity as well. I'm just theorizing, though.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Why shouldn't we take baby Gokuu's battle power of 2 in the Bardock special as manga canon? Nothing contradicts it, and it's a clear-cut explanation as to why he was regarded as weak, by his father himself. I don't think it's about an inability to survive in Planet Vegeta's gravity. Besides, when Kaiou, after explaining about the gravity on Vegeta and the Saiyans' inborn fighting instincts, mentions that he can't even begin to imagine how strong they are, Gokuu cheerfully replies, "Sure I can! I mean, I'm Saiyan too!"

I don't know whether or not that last part's remotely relevant, but whatever.

[hleV]

Why shouldn't we take baby Gokuu's battle power of 2 in the Bardock special as manga canon?

Because it wasn't made by AT. It's a PERFECT reason.
IMHO, it's kinda silly to consider stuff true to the manga (as we're not really talking about "canon" here) only because it doesn't contradict anything. We know a bunch of Toei's movies that just don't fit. If one of them managed to not contradict anything (while I still believe that Vegeta's fringe doesn't make any sense), it doesn't mean it's true to the manga. Hell, the other special, the Trunks' one, which is supposed to be on the same level of... um... canonicity as Bardock's (because they're both "specials") DOES contradict the manga.
Aren't I giving more than enough reasons to simply NOT go by Bardock's special?

[Piccolo Daimao]

Why shouldn't we take baby Gokuu's battle power of 2 in the Bardock special as manga canon?

Because it wasn't made by AT. It's a PERFECT reason.
IMHO, it's kinda silly to consider stuff true to the manga (as we're not really talking about "canon" here) only because it doesn't contradict anything. We know a bunch of Toei's movies that just don't fit. If one of them managed to not contradict anything, it doesn't mean it's true to the manga.

I know, but I always took Gokuu's practically official battle power of 2 at face value, since, well, why not? I know that this line of thinking isn't entirely consistent, but whatever. It still seems to be a pretty damn low BP for a Saiyan baby, regardless of whether or not he had problems with Planet Vegeta's gravity (although, you know, that could be a valid explanation for why Gokuu's crying in DBZ Movie #8 pissed off Broli; perhaps Saiyan babies just didn't normally cry and an alien sound like that from the one baby who couldn't take the gravity disturbed mentally unstable li'l Broli, trying to sleep beside him).

Anyway, I and many others basically take the entire Bardock special as manga canon because of those two panels Toriyama included in the manga that, almost exactly detail-for-detail, mirror the same scene in the special. Bardock himself, at least, appeared in Toriyama's manga.

[Hitiro]

Why shouldn't we take baby Gokuu's battle power of 2 in the Bardock special as manga canon?

Because it wasn't made by AT. It's a PERFECT reason.
IMHO, it's kinda silly to consider stuff true to the manga (as we're not really talking about "canon" here) only because it doesn't contradict anything. We know a bunch of Toei's movies that just don't fit. If one of them managed to not contradict anything, it doesn't mean it's true to the manga.

I know, but I always took Gokuu's practically official battle power of 2 at face value, since, well, why not? I know that this line of thinking isn't entirely consistent, but whatever. It still seems to be a pretty damn low BP for a Saiyan baby, regardless of whether or not he had problems with Planet Vegeta's gravity (although, you know, that could be a valid explanation for why Gokuu's crying in DBZ Movie #8 pissed off Broli; perhaps Saiyan babies just didn't normally cry and an alien sound like that from the one baby who couldn't take the gravity disturbed mentally unstable li'l Broli, trying to sleep beside him).

Anyway, I and many others basically take the entire Bardock special as manga canon because of those two panels Toriyama included in the manga that, almost exactly detail-for-detail, mirror the same scene in the special. Bardock himself, at least, appeared in Toriyama's manga.

I think you're both missing the point of why animals and other creatures are the way they are. If we take a jellyfish, for instance, the reason why it is the way it is is purely down to it being adapted to its lifestyle. Jellyfish have no bones and are made of a jelly like substance to allow them to reach massive depths without the problem of the pressure killing them. If we take birds they are adapted to flying because that is their domain. A lot of sketches and ideas have floated around as to what creatures would look like if they lived on Saturn and they have incorporated the idea's of having a Jellyfish like body to survive the gravity of such a large planet as well as having a large umbrella like body to float amongst the gaseous layer of the planet. Environmental evolution can be seen in many creatures across the world as they have needed to evolve that way in order to survive in whatever condition they live in.

So back to my point Saiyans probably have a much tougher and resilient body in order to survive on such heavy planet. The fact that Goku's powerlevel was low shouldn't matter as his genes, as well as all other Saiyans on the planet, will be adapted to the gravity through evolution. In fact, I believe Superman also came from a planet which had more gravity then ours and one of the reasons he was able to survive there was because all Kryptonians are born with an anti-gravity organ. I don't know whether this is still an idea that is used as they have probably retconned the idea. It was also used as an theory for why Superman could fly by Lex Luthor. In conclusion I think its safe to assume that the Saiyans just have a greater resilience than us humans. Which explains why Goku with a powerlevel of 10 at the start of Dragonball could tank bullets and getting smashed in the face with a car. Master Roshi and Krillin are also seen tanking bullets later in the manga but their powerlevels are over 100 so it is understandable. We also can't forget that Goku has survived his fair share of killing blows throughout the story and characters have questioned his incredible resilience to physical attacks.

[Super Vegetto]

Is it stated in manga that Planet Vegeta is 10x from normal earth gravity ?

[Hitiro]

Is it stated in manga that Planet Vegeta is 10x from normal earth gravity ?

King Kai: "Let me tell you this, the home world of the Saiyans has gravity at least as great as this."

[DBZGTKOSDH]

So back to my point Saiyans probably have a much tougher and resilient body in order to survive on such heavy planet.

The Saiyan race wasn't created for this particular planet though, since the are from Planet Saiya, not Planet Plant/Vegeta.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

The Saiyan race wasn't created for this particular planet though, since the are from Planet Saiya, not Planet Plant/Vegeta.

Well, this is where the specific media you're talking about and each person's individual canon becomes important. That statement may be true for the anime, but for the people who only include the manga in their canon, nothing contradicts the idea that the Saiyan's were always from Planet Vegeta, meaning no Planet Saiya or Tsufurians in their history.

[Bussani]

Why shouldn't we take baby Gokuu's battle power of 2 in the Bardock special as manga canon? Nothing contradicts it

There's no real reason we shouldn't, but from another point of view, there's no real reason we must, either. Not being contradicted doesn't automatically make something canon, in my opinion, but it certainly leaves it as a possibility. And for something like this, I don't think it's a big deal either way. If his battle power when he first appears was 10, then surely his battle power as a baby was 10 or less.

I think you're both missing the point of why animals and other creatures are the way they are. If we take a jellyfish, for instance, the reason why it is the way it is is purely down to it being adapted to its lifestyle. Jellyfish have no bones and are made of a jelly like substance to allow them to reach massive depths without the problem of the pressure killing them. If we take birds they are adapted to flying because that is their domain. A lot of sketches and ideas have floated around as to what creatures would look like if they lived on Saturn and they have incorporated the idea's of having a Jellyfish like body to survive the gravity of such a large planet as well as having a large umbrella like body to float amongst the gaseous layer of the planet. Environmental evolution can be seen in many creatures across the world as they have needed to evolve that way in order to survive in whatever condition they live in.

I also think that Saiyans are naturally tougher than humans, but it sounds like you're under the impression that creatures will adapt to whatever environment you put them in, which isn't how it works. Evolution is completely random. We only find creatures suited to an environment living in that environment because they were lucky enough to randomly develop traits that work, and because they work, the creatures with those traits thrive and stick around. In other words, if it's possible for a being to develop that can survive in ten times Earth's gravity on planet Plant, such a being could also come to exist on a planet with half of Earth's gravity. Such a trait wouldn't be detrimental to them, so they wouldn't die out. In fact, they'd be so resilient that I see no reason they wouldn't thrive.

Of course, there are other forms of adaptation that have nothing to do with evolution. For instance, if you live in space for a long time, obviously you'll lose muscle and bone mass; if humans went and lived on a planet with slightly more gravity for a couple of generations, the result would probably be people of shorter height and with stronger muscles. This doesn't change your genes, however. It's basically no different from moving to a sunnier place and getting a tan.