Did Dragonball go downhill when it became DBZ?

[Gaffer Tape]

Definitely the series as a whole. Those same terrible cliches would be repeated ad nauseum in the next two arcs. They did do the transformations more convincingly than with Freeza, but it was still pretty old by the time it got to Boo. Piccolo was green-balled just as strongly as he had been in the fight with Freeza. Not to mention that Vegeta was turned into a moronic, whiny little bitch for the rest of the series. The last half year of the Boo arc was nothing but fights that went nowhere, one-upped by new transformations, build up of characters that ended up accomplishing nothing, and finally a fight on a planet that looked just as dull and generic as every other battle since the Saiyan arc.

[Saiga]

Definitely the series as a whole. Those same terrible cliches would be repeated ad nauseum in the next two arcs. They did do the transformations more convincingly than with Freeza, but it was still pretty old by the time it got to Boo. Piccolo was green-balled just as strongly as he had been in the fight with Freeza. Not to mention that Vegeta was turned into a moronic, whiny little bitch for the rest of the series. The last half year of the Boo arc was nothing but fights that went nowhere, one-upped by new transformations, build up of characters that ended up accomplishing nothing, and finally a fight on a planet that looked just as dull and generic as every other battle since the Saiyan arc.

Then I'd have to disagree. While I feel that the Freeza arc did decline at that point, I feel it picked up again after that arc and that the Cell and Boo sagas were much better. Piccolo still got shafted though, yeah.

[SonMatthew]

I'd disagree that the show stopped being surprising and was stale by the Buu arc. I think the Buu arc is the most unpredictable arc of the whole series. Vegeta going back to his old ways was, I thought, a big shocking twist and was very well handled. The fusion story with Goten and Trunks was really funny, and brought a whole new tone to the well-trodden 'big bad' arc formula. Gohan's return seemed like it would follow the pattern of the main hero coming back and saving the day, but took yet another twist (I don't like the fact that Gohan was taken out of the picture, but it did surprise me). We are left with Goku and Vegeta fusing, which is again enjoyable - but even more surprising is them facing Buu for the final battle COMPLETELY outmatched. Also, Vegeta and Goku were actually out of the action for a long stretch of the arc. A poster called Goku himself a 'deus ex machina', but in this case they have to call upon the EARTH itself as its own saviour, which is a nice touch (and I wouldn't call it a deus ex machina, as the spirit bomb was well established as a technique by this point). All in all, I felt the series was filled with unexpected twists (I recently watched it with someone who hadn't seen it before and their jaw was consistently on the floor in surprise and tension!)

I feel that Dragon Ball stayed strong for the bulk of its run, with some missteps along the way. No one arc is guilty of bring the show down, but rather some odd and unsatisfactory decisions were made within the arcs along the way (in Dragon Ball and in Z characters are neglected, leaps of logic go a bit too far, repetitive plot points are reused etc). Any series - especially one so long-running, written to a strict deadline, with lots of characters and lots of reader/editorial expectations - will have these problems from time to time. The fact that, even in the Buu arc, the story was exciting, funny and a showcase for great characters shows to me only shows how consistent Dragon Ball was from its start to its end.

[MCDaveG]

From my nowaday point of view, I'd say yes. But not as total decline, but it got shifted from more adventurous story, to simply fighting. But yeah, I enjoy the story up until the 23rd Budokai the most also I like the background and places where they go to. I didn't enjoy the Namek adventure story that much as that planet was so plain comparing it to Earth. At least it had reversed colours of grass and water to be somewhat interesting.

But what really got me into the series was seeing Buu arc in TV. As I already knew about Dragon Ball from RTL II, I wasn't that much hooked on as I didn't understood much German, so I didn't know what the story is about and without the knowledge of it, it bored me to hell. Until I saw sometime later the 25th Budokai in French dub, where I got hooked on how the fights looked like. No shitty tackling like we saw in Pokemon or Digimon so far, but ''realistic'' looking exaggerated battles of huge blows and devastating effects and as a kid, I thought that was cool, so I wanted to know, what the ''prequel'' is and returned to RTL II for the early portion of the story, later got to see the Japanese version of it, fansubtitled and fell in love with it.

[Beatrice]

I have to agree with Gaffer Tape. The middle of the Freeza arc I feel like the series took a dive. Not enough of a dive to make me not love it, but definitely a noticeable dive. I definitely agree that the first half had some of my favorite scenes from the whole series in it.

I enjoyed the Cell arc well enough... But mostly I just enjoyed the first half of that arc and then towards the end, felt like things had gone downhill. Actually, I think the Cell arc as a whole was worse than the Freeza arc. The flip flopping of, "These Androids are the villians! Oh no, wait it's THESE Androids! OH NO, WAIT! It's this Cell guy! And he's going to have multiple transformations!!"

It was far more of a messy storyline than anything we'd seen previously from Toriyami and it drove me up the wall a bit. The real kicker for me was after Cell blew himself up, he teleports to back to Earth, back in Perfect form with a, "I can regenerate if even one of my cells is intact! OH and I don't need the Androids to be Perfect anymore! LULZZZZZZZZZ~~"

I just remember my reaction as, "...Are you KIDDING me? *face in hands*"

I haven't even made it to the end of the Buu arc. *dodges tomatoes* I've seen the first half, and again, it was around when Babidi appeared that I just stopped watching. I haven't been able to bring myself to watch the rest. :/

[Aoi]

I find the Frieza arc/battle to be Toriyama's to have both great and poorly written moments. It seemed like his imagination was waning at this point and his inspiration limited to "let's draw the greatest battle ever seen". It builds and builds brilliantly though, even though at the core there isn't much going on at the climax other than "Will Goku beat Frieza and escape in time?" (+ the obvious tying of loose ends with the Namekians/Dragonballs). However, I adore where Toriyama took the series after the Frieza arc. I find that he did the near impossible by actually making a series this long feel fresh and new again. The story just feels much more inspired during the Cell/Trunks/Android arc. BTW, I do think the Buu arc is the perfect blend of "DB wackiness/adventure" and "Z's ultra fighting" that GT ultimately failed to capture. The perfect ending to the series.

[son veku]

People always say the Freeza arc was Cliched and boring, but that''s after they watch Buu and Cell arc, but he hadn't written that yet so it was original to Toriyama when he wrote it
so that Arc shouldn't be called cliched and boring with just transformation's ,but every other arc should be.

(sorry I dont really know if its,and or, and or ,and)

[Fin]

I’d say Toriyama hit this peak in storytelling around the Piccolo Daimaou to 23rd Tenkaichi Budoukai arc, and took a definitive drop midway through the Freeza arc. So yeah, about the time Gokuu arrives on Namek.

I came in here to say exactly this. The rest of your post (and Gaffer Tape's) really hit the nail on the head. Of all my least favourite parts of Dragon Ball the second half of the Freeza arc is the most crushing blow. The arc starts out strong by giving us an amazing sense of tension by focusing on the lower tier characters and making them feel like cornered rats. And then we get Goku stealing the limelight, the endless transformations dragging the Freeza fight out and ultimately robbing it of any sense of tension or urgency, and the rushed ending immediately flowing into the Android prelude before we can get any real closure, just so we can see Trunks piss all over our investment in the last 8 graphic novels by one-shotting Freeza. It's horrible. The Freeza fight needed fewer transformations (just give Freeza two forms, three tops, and get rid of that stupid '50% of my power' crap), and the payoff for Goku's struggle against Freeza shouldn't have been for him to go Super Saiyan -- he should have died, causing Gohan to become the Super Saiyan.

Fixing some the broader problems, Toriyama needed to make more creative use of Bulma's technical expertise -- imagine if the Androids were going to arrive six months later, not three years, and if Trunks had shown up shortly after the Dragon Balls had been used to bring back Freeza's victims. Now using Shenlong to locate Gero is no longer an option. Lose that stupid bit about the heroes' warrior ethic preventing them from finding Gero, and let Bulma take the spotlight while she uses her knowledge of Gero and some technological aid to try to find his lab, allowing the heroes to get a small victory over him. Little things like that throughout the series could have made Bulma feel less like a purveyor of plot devices, and more like a genuine part of the team.

Better ways of showing Goku's martial progression would have been nice too. It was kind of cool when during the Freeza fight we had the battle literally destroying the planet, but once you've done that you can no longer raise the stakes and have it remain emotionally comprehensible. It's like trying to visualise the difference between 300 trillion and 300 quintillion -- at that point they're all the same really big numbers to us. If Goku were still alive after Cell he could have taken on a student (Gohan's the obvious choice, but honestly, anyone will do). Now instead of the Boo arc being about Goku trying and failing to manipulate the next generation into becoming the new defenders of Earth, it can be about Goku taking an active role in training someone. We had a bit of this at the end of the Cell arc, but we only really got glimpses, and Goku's self-centredness ultimately undermined it. If done well it could be a tangible way of showing Goku's progress at this point in the series, and we could really get a sense of how far he's come as a martial artist.

[Nikkolas]

Yes it did.

-Upon the revelation that he was FROM SPACE Goku pretty much lost all his likability.

-The Dragonballs were turned into the absolute worst and most abused plot device in the history of anything.

-The fights are ridiculously boring ki spams/blurry punches and kicks

There's plenty more flaws but others have already commented on it and these are my major complaints.

[Jord]

Yes it did.

-Upon the revelation that he was FROM SPACE Goku pretty much lost all his likability.

Why do you think that?

-The fights are ridiculously boring ki spams/blurry punches and kicks

That. A lot of Dragonball's fights end with a Kamehameha but most of the fights against the 'boss characters' are solved in a 'smart' way. Freezing that Pink monster in Muscle Tower, punching through Piccolo Daimao, using Roshi's pervertness to beat the invisible man. You pretty much know Goku will win but it's always surprising how he wins and that is part of the charm of the fights. Evenwithout the finishes I like how the fights rely on Kung Fu and the wits of both opponents instead of how much Ki blasts they spam or how high their power level is.

Just look at how the bosses in DBZ are beaten/killed:

Raditz: Ki Blast
Nappa: Ki Blast
Vegeta: Falling Oozaru
Dodoria: Ki Blast
Zarbon: Ki blast punch
Ginyu: Body Swap
Burter: Ki Blast
Jeice: Ki Blast
Recoome: Ki Blast
Guldo: Decapitation
Freeza: Ki Blast
Mecha Freeza: Ki blast
#19: Ki Blast
#20: decapitation
#16: crushed
Cell: Ki Blast
Future Cell: Ki Blast
Buu: Spirit Bomb

Notice a pattern?

[Piccolo Daimao]

-Upon the revelation that he was FROM SPACE Goku pretty much lost all his likability.

Not really. Gokuu lost moat of his likeability around the time he began to embrace his Saiyan heritage and make more unforgivably selfish decisions, which was towards the end of the Freeza arc/beginning of the Cell arc. Beforehand, he was still mostly the same energetic manchild who loved battle, only now we had an unnecessary pseudo-scientific explanation for it.

Still, I'm fine with it, mainly because the Saiyans were a relatively interesting idea, and without the Saiyans, we may never have recieved Freeza, the best villain in DB, IMO.

[TonyTheTiger]

So with Toriyama constantly raising the stakes, all you could really do is have big muscle men smash each other with the whole planet shaking.

I don't think that had to be an inevitability. It ends up becoming one due to the gradual (and perhaps not so gradual) homogenizing of powers, with Piccolo being the poster boy. When everybody's powers are ultimately identical with the only real difference being the color of the ki blasts then, yeah, you end up in a situation where storming Muscle Tower doesn't work later in the series. But if different characters had wildly different abilities you'd be able to do more and might be able to justify why Goku couldn't just blow something up, why he'd have to take a different approach, or even why somebody else would be better suited to solving a particular problem. Toriyama dabbled in the kinds of wackiness that's commonplace in DC and Marvel comic books like telepathy, stretchy limbs, cloning, slicing attacks, etc. but didn't go the extra mile to keep them useful throughout which ends up pigeonholing potential plot points. You can see some vague attempts to work around this. #19 and #20's absorption marginally changed the playing field but there was no real follow through. And despite regeneration being a a super big deal for both Cell and Buu, the solution wasn't some fringe ability that an otherwise physically weak character might have been able to counter with. The solution was maor powar!

I wouldn't say the series went downhill with DBZ. But I will say that it lost some of the ecclectic qualities and powers that still had plenty of potential to work in a world with powerhouse planet busters. There's no legitimate reason why telekenesis couldn't have been a useful power during the Cell Games, for instance, or why Toriyama decided to ignore the Kienzan (or why Toei specifically nerfed it). It isn't so much that these problems are exclusive to the Z portion, just that there stopped even being a question by that point.

[Nikkolas]

Yes it did.

-Upon the revelation that he was FROM SPACE Goku pretty much lost all his likability.

Why do you think that?

[t of his likeability around the time he began to embrace his Saiyan heritage and make more unforgivably selfish decisions, which was towards the end of the Freeza arc/beginning of the Cell arc. Beforehand, he was still mostly the same energetic manchild who loved battle, only now we had an unnecessary pseudo-scientific explanation for it.

Still, I'm fine with it, mainly because the Saiyans were a relatively interesting idea, and without the Saiyans, we may never have recieved Freeza, the best villain in DB, IMO.

Except his first big "I'm a dumb Saiyan" act was in the Saiyan Saga.

Kid Goku: When his friend was killed, he hunted down the culprit immediately.
Adult Goku: When THREE of his friends are killed, he lets the man responsible leave. Why? Because he wants to fight him again.

nevermind the fact Vegeta just tried to kill his son and every othr person on the planet.

I don't like Adult Goku because he makes incredibly dumb decisions that make it impossible to like him.

He was forever beyond hopes of redemption when he threw his own son to Cell.

And really, the Saiyan plot twist was only accepted because of the low standards of the time. Had Toriyama tried something like that today, any credibility he had as a writer would be gone in a flash.

Then again, I think he lost that anyway when he introduced Raditz, our hero's brother.
And then killed him five minutes later.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Except his first big "I'm a dumb Saiyan" act was in the Saiyan Saga.

Kid Goku: When his friend was killed, he hunted down the culprit immediately.
Adult Goku: When THREE of his friends are killed, he lets the man responsible leave. Why? Because he wants to fight him again.

nevermind the fact Vegeta just tried to kill his son and every othr person on the planet.

I don't like Adult Goku because he makes incredibly dumb decisions that make it impossible to like him.

He was forever beyond hopes of redemption when he threw his own son to Cell.

And really, the Saiyan plot twist was only accepted because of the low standards of the time. Had Toriyama tried something like that today, any credibility he had as a writer would be gone in a flash.

Then again, I think he lost that anyway when he introduced Raditz, our hero's brother.
And then killed him five minutes later.

You know that Gokuu spared Piccolo's life too. Yeah, if Piccolo died then so would God, but it's clear that his primary reason for sparing Piccolo was because he wanted to fight him again, and his connection with God was merely a fallback plan. I have no doubt in my mind that, if Piccolo and God's life-force weren't tied, that Gokuu would still let him go. And, like Kuririn said, if it was just because he didn't want God to die too, why didn't he seal him in the Mafuuba, or get God, Muten Roushi or Tenshinhan to?

And you said "lose all his likeability". I know I'm speaking personally, but I only ever started disliking Gokuu around the beginning of the Cell arc. His first real big out-of-character moment was, understandably, after he became a Super Saiyan and allowed Freeza to go 100% just so he could humiliate him by defeating him at his strongest, without a thought for his own and anyone else's (including his son and oldest friend, yet to escape the planet and may've been killed by Freeza if the emperor somehow managed to actually kill Gokuu, or alternatively, just stall until the planet exploded and he survived in space) safety.

But it was in the Cell arc where he literally ignored Blooma's plan to track down and kill Gero before the Androids in favour of a good fight. After what could've happened with Piccolo and what did happen with Vegeta (killed a bunch of innocent people, almost killed his friends), it's as if he never even learned from his mistake. He only got worse from there, making incredibly risky gamble after incredibly risky gamble due to his own selfish desires and insanely poor judgement.

And despite being Gokuu's brother, Raditz had served his purpose in the story, and the brother tagline barely made a blot in the wider aspect of things. Seriously, it almost means nothing when the two are nothing alike anyway and there isn't much you could do with that kind of weak strand of development, character or otherwise, anyway. Gokuu himself proclaimed, "I don't have a brother!", because their relationship never went further than, "Hey, my weak li'l bro, how ya doing? I know we haven't seen each other in, like, 24 years and I don't know what the fuck you've been doing on this shitty planet, but I thought I'd turn up out of the blue and talk to you now so you can help me kill all the innocent lives on this planet! Oh, you don't want to? Fine, I'll beat the shit out of you and kidnap your son! You mad? "

[Nikkolas]

You know that Gokuu spared Piccolo's life too. Yeah, if Piccolo died then so would God, but it's clear that his primary reason for sparing Piccolo was because he wanted to fight him again, and his connection with God was merely a fallback plan. I have no doubt in my mind that, if Piccolo and God's life-force weren't tied, that Gokuu would still let him go. And, like Kuririn said, if it was just because he didn't want God to die too, why didn't he seal him in the Mafuuba, or get God, Muten Roushi or Tenshinhan to?

Perhaps because it would mean killing them needlessly and wasting a wish on reviving them?

And despite being Gokuu's brother, Raditz had served his purpose in the story, and the brother tagline barely made a blot in the wider aspect of things. Seriously, it almost means nothing when the two are nothing alike anyway and there isn't much you could do with that kind of weak strand of development, character or otherwise, anyway. Gokuu himself proclaimed, "I don't have a brother!", because their relationship never went further than, "Hey, my weak li'l bro, how ya doing? I know we haven't seen each other in, like, 24 years and I don't know what the fuck you've been doing on this shitty planet, but I thought I'd turn up out of the blue and talk to you now so you can help me kill all the innocent lives on this planet! Oh, you don't want to? Fine, I'll beat the shit out of you and kidnap your son! You mad? "

Then that begs the question of why make him Goku's brother at all? There was literally no point to it.

It was clearly Toriyama just reaching as far up into his anus as humanly possible to extract something new and he threw whatever he could get his hands on into the manga.

[LeprikanGT]

Wasn't it ALL just DragonBall in Japan? So, to the OP, at what point in the show do you believe it started to do downhill chapterwise?

[Pokewhiz7]

Wasn't it ALL just DragonBall in Japan? So, to the OP, at what point in the show do you believe it started to do downhill chapterwise?

The manga was. The anime wasn't. DBZ starts with chapter 196.

[Piccolo Daimao]

You know that Gokuu spared Piccolo's life too. Yeah, if Piccolo died then so would God, but it's clear that his primary reason for sparing Piccolo was because he wanted to fight him again, and his connection with God was merely a fallback plan. I have no doubt in my mind that, if Piccolo and God's life-force weren't tied, that Gokuu would still let him go. And, like Kuririn said, if it was just because he didn't want God to die too, why didn't he seal him in the Mafuuba, or get God, Muten Roushi or Tenshinhan to?

Perhaps because it would mean killing them needlessly and wasting a wish on reviving them?

What? Sealing Piccolo in the Denshi jar would automatically kill both of them, which is why God tried it in his match with him when he realized Gokuu wouldn't be able to bring himself to killing him. But the fact that Gokuu didn't even bother having it done on Piccolo means that his primary reason for sparing Piccolo was a desire to fight him again. Even when Piccolo flies away, Gokuu's thinking, "I hope you get stronger, Piccolo! And I'm going to try and surpass you...by one full level!" while everyone else are staring at him, dumbfounded.

And despite being Gokuu's brother, Raditz had served his purpose in the story, and the brother tagline barely made a blot in the wider aspect of things. Seriously, it almost means nothing when the two are nothing alike anyway and there isn't much you could do with that kind of weak strand of development, character or otherwise, anyway. Gokuu himself proclaimed, "I don't have a brother!", because their relationship never went further than, "Hey, my weak li'l bro, how ya doing? I know we haven't seen each other in, like, 24 years and I don't know what the fuck you've been doing on this shitty planet, but I thought I'd turn up out of the blue and talk to you now so you can help me kill all the innocent lives on this planet! Oh, you don't want to? Fine, I'll beat the shit out of you and kidnap your son! You mad? "

Then that begs the question of why make him Goku's brother at all? There was literally no point to it.

It was clearly Toriyama just reaching as far up into his anus as humanly possible to extract something new and he threw whatever he could get his hands on into the manga.

I suppose it was for the double impact of not only Gokuu being an alien, but that he has a brother and he's the exact opposite of him. Yeah, it was a pretty weak plot point that never mattered much in the end, but I guess Toriyama wanted some kind of emotional response, and Gokuu does let go Raditz's tail presumably because of their relationship.

It is to think about Dragon Ball without the Saiyans, though, since they made such a huge impact to the story and franchise as a whole, but we didn't necessarily need an explanation for Gokuu's origin and oddities, like his tail and strength. I mean for some reason, the tail in particular was picked out as an oddity, but no-one even seemed to take a second glance at Kuririn's lack of a nose, or Tenshinhan's third eye, or whatever the fuck Chaozu was, or Piccolo's green skin (unless you count that monk at the 25th TB). The God of Earth himself, and presumably other people he met as he integrated into the rest of society on Earth, never entertained the notion that he may be an alien, even with his item-materializing abilities and specifically Shenlong & the Dragon Balls, although he apparently wondered about the antennae (could've been just a joke, though).

But supposedly, Toriyama had already decided on Piccolo and God being alien by the 23rd Tenkaichi Budoukai, with them speaking a different language and all, so maybe he figured, "Fuck it, I'll make Gokuu one too." I guess that's not a farfetched assumption to make. If he really needed to make him an alien, perhaps he should've written in a better way, rather than a Superman rip-off. But that's Toriyama for ya. It's amazing such a seat-on-the-pants writer as him managed to make most of his manga flow so well, at least up until the Saiyan arc, where the tone definitively shifted to a more science-fiction (and potentially, more fallible) theme.

[Gaffer Tape]

I'm really going to have to bookmark this thread because I know it's going to be useful as hell when I get to this section of DBD. A lot of the stuff I've said already I had been planning to say for years in DBD, but some of the points brought up by TripleRach, PiccoloDaimao, TonytheTiger and others are pretty amazing and aspects I'd never even though of before! I love this thread!

[son veku]

You know that Gokuu spared Piccolo's life too. Yeah, if Piccolo died then so would God, but it's clear that his primary reason for sparing Piccolo was because he wanted to fight him again, and his connection with God was merely a fallback plan. I have no doubt in my mind that, if Piccolo and God's life-force weren't tied, that Gokuu would still let him go. And, like Kuririn said, if it was just because he didn't want God to die too, why didn't he seal him in the Mafuuba, or get God, Muten Roushi or Tenshinhan to?

Perhaps because it would mean killing them needlessly and wasting a wish on reviving them?

And despite being Gokuu's brother, Raditz had served his purpose in the story, and the brother tagline barely made a blot in the wider aspect of things. Seriously, it almost means nothing when the two are nothing alike anyway and there isn't much you could do with that kind of weak strand of development, character or otherwise, anyway. Gokuu himself
proclaimed, "I don't have a brother!", because their relationship never went further than, "Hey, my weak li'l bro, how ya doing? I know we haven't seen each other in, like, 24 years and I don't know what the fuck you've been doing on this shitty planet, but I thought I'd turn up out of the blue and talk to you now so you can help me kill all the innocent lives on this planet! Oh, you don't want to? Fine, I'll beat the shit out of you and kidnap your son! You mad? "

Then that begs the question of why make him Goku's brother at all? There was literally no point to it.

It was clearly Toriyama just reaching as far up into his anus as humanly possible to extract something new and he threw whatever he could get his hands on into the manga.

But If your strong enough the Mafuba doesn't hurt you
(I'm not sure can someone verify this)