Dragonball Z: Saiyan Saga - Help make this happen!

[Pafupafu]

Exactly, these guys are taking money from the GENERAL PUBLIC which also includes the target audience and consumers of Toei/Funimation, thus, taking away money from them.

They haven't "taken" anything, people willingly donated money to them...

They have "taken" money from the rightful owners of said property. If you owned all of the rights to produce, distribute, and profit from anything related to the property "Dragon Ball", then you would be pretty pissed if some British guys are producing, distributing, and profiting from "Dragon Ball". Get it?

Probably not, so here's a little more in-depth look:

Legally what happens:
TORIYAMA SELLS DB TO TOEI and then...
TOEI SELLS DB TO FUNIMATION and then...
FUNIMATION SELLS DB TO US

What IndieGoGo is allowing, illegally:

BRITISH GUYS SELL DB TO US

Who is missing from this equation?

The real question is are these "Producers" really selling it? Maybe, maybe not. It doesn't matter. They are PROFITING. How you say? Because they are using an Intellectual Property known WORLDWIDE to promote their OWN services.

To be completely clear:

NO company in THE WORLD is allowed to make money from Dragon Ball WITHOUT going through Toriyama, Toei, or Funimation.

[Kuwabara]

They have "taken" money from the rightful owners of said property. If you owned all of the rights to produce, distribute, and profit from anything related to the property "Dragon Ball", then you would be pretty pissed if some British guys are producing, distributing, and profiting from "Dragon Ball". Get it?

Probably not, so here's a little more in-depth look:

Legally what happens:
TORIYAMA SELLS DB TO TOEI and then...
TOEI SELLS DB TO FUNIMATION and then...
FUNIMATION SELLS DB TO US

What IndieGoGo is allowing, illegally:

BRITISH GUYS SELL DB TO US

Who is missing from this equation?

The real question is are these "Producers" really selling it? Maybe, maybe not. It doesn't matter. They are PROFITING. How you say? Because they are using an Intellectual Property known WORLDWIDE to promote their OWN services.

To be completely clear:

NO company in THE WORLD is allowed to make money from Dragon Ball WITHOUT going through Toriyama, Toei, or Funimation.

This is all good and fine, I don't necessarily disagree, but what does any of it have to do with what I said? No one who donated did so at gun point.

Probably not

To be completely clear

Yes please, dumb it down for me.

[Pafupafu]

They have "taken" money from the rightful owners of said property. If you owned all of the rights to produce, distribute, and profit from anything related to the property "Dragon Ball", then you would be pretty pissed if some British guys are producing, distributing, and profiting from "Dragon Ball". Get it?

Probably not, so here's a little more in-depth look:

Legally what happens:
TORIYAMA SELLS DB TO TOEI and then...
TOEI SELLS DB TO FUNIMATION and then...
FUNIMATION SELLS DB TO US

What IndieGoGo is allowing, illegally:

BRITISH GUYS SELL DB TO US

Who is missing from this equation?

The real question is are these "Producers" really selling it? Maybe, maybe not. It doesn't matter. They are PROFITING. How you say? Because they are using an Intellectual Property known WORLDWIDE to promote their OWN services.

To be completely clear:

NO company in THE WORLD is allowed to make money from Dragon Ball WITHOUT going through Toriyama, Toei, or Funimation.

This is all good and fine, I don't necessarily disagree, but what does any of it have to do with what I said? No one who donated did so at gun point.

Probably not

To be completely clear

Yes please, dumb it down for me.

Sorry that was not meant to be directed towards you but more to everyone in this discussion who STILL do not see the legal implications of this matter so unfortunately dumbing things down was the only way to make it simple for said posters.

You're absolutely right, no one is pointing a gun and saying give me money. But does FUNimation or Toei hold a gun to anyone either? No.

How about another metaphor?

Akira Toriyama comes up with a great idea, he's going to sell ICE CREAM! Yay
So Toriyama sets up a truck on the corner and calls it "Dragon Ball Ice Cream". The kids love it! Toriyama copyrights the name "Dragon Ball Ice Cream" so that he is the ONLY seller of "Dragon Ball Ice Cream".

Two British Guys, who are fans of "Dragon Ball Ice Cream", start up a Frozen Yogurt truck called "Dragon Ball Frozen Yogurt". Naturally, because of the BRAND NAME, fans of DB ICE are very interested in this idea. So much so, they decide to give the two guys $15,000!

Toriyama created this. And deserves every penny from the name.

He may be a millionaire but that doesn't mean he doesn't deserve the money these two British guys are STEALING by using his name. It's fraud 101.

You may not think Toriyama is directly affected by this but if you follow the business model of these "Producers", ANYONE in the world can take $15,000 from the companies and man who brought us the very thing we are discussing now. I don't know about you guys, but I'm no thief.

[Bussani]

Exactly, these guys are taking money from the GENERAL PUBLIC which also includes the target audience and consumers of Toei/Funimation, thus, taking away money from them.

I agree that them asking for donations to make something like this is iffy, to say the least, but how is it taking away from Toei and Funimation? This isn't for profit, and it isn't a replacement for the official release. I find it hard to believe that people donating to this is taking money away from the right-holders. You might as well say that fan-films shouldn't be allowed at all, since even if they funded it themselves, they could be using that money to buy official products instead.

I'd think differently if they really were making money off this, but saying they're keeping some of the donations for themselves seems like a rather baseless accusation to me.

[Pafupafu]

Exactly, these guys are taking money from the GENERAL PUBLIC which also includes the target audience and consumers of Toei/Funimation, thus, taking away money from them.

I agree that them asking for donations to make something like this is iffy, to say the least, but how is it taking away from Toei and Funimation? This isn't for profit, and it isn't a replacement for the official release. I find it hard to believe that people donating to this is taking money away from the right-holders. You might as well say that fan-films shouldn't be allowed at all, since even if they funded it themselves, they could be using that money to buy official products instead.

I'd think differently if they really were making money off this, but saying they're keeping some of the donations for themselves seems like a rather baseless accusation to me.

To say this isn't for profit is ridiculous. Profit first of all, is not always monetary. Profit is the EXPOSURE their company is getting for using a Brand Name which they have no rights to use in any way shape or form. Fan-Films do not generate funding from the general public. There is no baseless accusation. I work for a Film Distribution company here in Philadelphia and deal with contracts of usage every single day. Any additional work these "Producers" receive as a result from the exposure from this product is stolen goods.

They shoot weddings. Okay, just keep that in mind. And they just back-doored IndieGoGo and raised $16,000 to fund a copyright infringing project. Anything positive that may or may not result in actual dollar profit is instantly compromised as being "piggybacked" from an illegal marketing strategy.

It's not hard to believe that people "donating" is taking money away from the Toei/FUNimation because the ONLY legal way these guys should be allowed to be DONATED TO in the first place is with the consent/agreement from the copyright holders. You honestly think a major company would grant some DSLR Wedding Guys access to the general public's wallet when it comes to Dragon Ball? No sir.

Donations to a fan site is completely looked over because it is a completely looked over market and does not directly compete/conflict with the companies mentioned.

Donations to a FILM is something these companies pay their lawyers to defeat because it is a SIMILAR MARKET. There are OFFICIAL Dragon Ball Films, Trailers, etc. that these guys are trying to integrate their own product into. Whether you believe it or not. A $16,000 Trailer is a red-flag as far as what can fly under the radar.

If there was an OFFICIAL Dragon Ball FAN SITE, there is no doubt the donations on a site like this would be red-flagged.

The only way this project will EVER be released is if it abandons the brand Dragon Ball entirely.

[Pafupafu]

I would much rather see $16,000 of money, mostly from Dragon Ball fans, like I said they didn't sell Donators anything but copyright infringing ideas, go to a new official release.

[DerekPadula]

Pafupafu, your logic is understandable but I don't see why you are so persistently negative. K & K were going to create the film with their own $5,000 regardless of any other external factors. The decision to quit their jobs had been made, the casting decisions had been made, the website had been made and the favors had been called on. They made a fundraising page on a whim, just to see if people may want to support their efforts. George and Harry had doubts anybody would, but lo and behold the fans did support them, and in a big, big way.

The reality that Dragon Ball fans from across the world have made tax deductible donations to what they feel is a worthwhile cause is a thing of beauty. The fans have expressed their love for the series and their dismay at the Hollywood produced version of what they cherish so much. They have hopes that K & K will do a better job. These two young men are brave enough to stand up and do it. Who else is there to champion? No one.

You work in film. You know the blood, sweat and tears required to produce a high quality product. Why push them down while they're trying to climb up? Isn't it better to support them and see what they can do? Dragon Ball teaches us that we all have untapped potential, right? Maybe they'll surprise you!

And even if they don't, what's the value of saying, "See, I told you so."? There are a million things that can go wrong on a production, on a film set, or with the script, individual cast members, and equipment. Who cares! Why focus on the negative? I believe it's far better to be hopeful and optimistic. When you do that, doors open up.

Besides, the more hard work you put into something, the more you should receive. No loss, no gain. More loss, more gain. If they earn recognition from their efforts, isn't it well deserved? If the film is lackluster, won't they also hurt their own reputations? They have a lot to lose or gain out of this project. It could go either way.

Let's sit back and watch what these two young men can do!

[Bussani]

To say this isn't for profit is ridiculous. Profit first of all, is not always monetary. Profit is the EXPOSURE their company is getting for using a Brand Name which they have no rights to use in any way shape or form. Fan-Films do not generate funding from the general public. There is no baseless accusation. I work for a Film Distribution company here in Philadelphia and deal with contracts of usage every single day. Any additional work these "Producers" receive as a result from the exposure from this product is stolen goods.

They shoot weddings. Okay, just keep that in mind. And they just back-doored IndieGoGo and raised $16,000 to fund a copyright infringing project. Anything positive that may or may not result in actual dollar profit is instantly compromised as being "piggybacked" from an illegal marketing strategy.

Let's say I were an artist. Let's say I drew some Star Wars fanart, just for fun and to improve my skills. If someone looking for an artist then saw that and hired me because of it, would that make me a thief, since I'd be profiting thanks to a franchise I don't own the rights to? There has to be a line somewhere or this way of thinking can get pretty absurd.

It's not hard to believe that people "donating" is taking money away from the Toei/FUNimation because the ONLY legal way these guys should be allowed to be DONATED TO in the first place is with the consent/agreement from the copyright holders.

Would it be okay for them to spend their own money on a fan-project, or would that be bad, too?

[MarcFBR]

The reality that Dragon Ball fans from across the world have made tax deductible donations to what they feel is a worthwhile cause is a thing of beauty. The fans have expressed their love for the series and their dismay at the Hollywood produced version of what they cherish so much. They have hopes that K & K will do a better job. These two young men are brave enough to stand up and do it. Who else is there to champion? No one.

Unless these guys set up a nonprofit, which I've seen no evidence of, the 'donations' are NOT tax deductible. This is why IndieGoGo does not refer to the money as donations in their FAQ, and makes it very clear that the vast majority of projects are not deemed as such.


And even though I'm technically on the same side of the argument as pafu, he is generally swinging past the legal definition and throwing in purely his opinion on certain matters.

[DerekPadula]

Unless these guys set up a nonprofit, which I've seen no evidence of, the 'donations' are NOT tax deductible. This is why IndieGoGo does not refer to the money as donations in their FAQ, and makes it very clear that the vast majority of projects are not deemed as such.

And even though I'm technically on the same side of the argument as pafu, he is generally swinging past the legal definition and throwing in purely his opinion on certain matters.

Ah, you're right about the donations. I checked their page on it: http://support.indiegogo.com/entries/20 ... deductible

Looks like they can be tax deductible, but not all of them are, and this one probably isn't. I stand corrected on that point.

I also find this project interesting: http://www.indiegogo.com/Dragon-Ball-Th ... -Nerd-Star

It's a documentary about Dragon Ball fans. I contributed $10 hoping it would take off, but it never did.

That's fascinating to me in light of how successful K & K was with their project, receiving $14,273 in donations. Both were based on the idea of making a Dragon Ball film, but one of them was successful and one of them was not.

I think this has a lot to do with the presentation and believability of whether or not they could actually pull it off. The documentary maker doesn't instill much confidence in you, while K & K does. At least more so.

And yes, I agree about Pafupafu swinging past the legal definitions. I'd say he has been talking in absolutes and ruling out a lot of completely legal possibilities for derivative works and fair use qualifiers.

For example, my book falls squarely in fair use guidelines and has been approved by FUNimation's legal team for publication, even though I will be profiting directly from it. When I say approved I don't mean they sent me an official certificate or letter stating that everything is A-OK. It means they said there's nothing they can do to stop me, nor do they want to, and they hope my project is a success. That K & K are specifically not charging anything should make it even more acceptable.

If anything FUNimation probably views it as a boon for their business since it's going to drum up the desire to purchase the real product within the minds of potentially millions of fans. Now Toei on the other hand, we'll have to wait and see how they react, but I doubt they'll even do anything.

[Pafupafu]

Unless these guys set up a nonprofit, which I've seen no evidence of, the 'donations' are NOT tax deductible. This is why IndieGoGo does not refer to the money as donations in their FAQ, and makes it very clear that the vast majority of projects are not deemed as such.

And even though I'm technically on the same side of the argument as pafu, he is generally swinging past the legal definition and throwing in purely his opinion on certain matters.

Ah, you're right about the donations. I checked their page on it: http://support.indiegogo.com/entries/20 ... deductible

Looks like they can be tax deductible, but not all of them are, and this one probably isn't. I stand corrected on that point.

I also find this project interesting: http://www.indiegogo.com/Dragon-Ball-Th ... -Nerd-Star

It's a documentary about Dragon Ball fans. I contributed $10 hoping it would take off, but it never did.

That's fascinating to me in light of how successful K & K was with their project, receiving $14,273 in donations. Both were based on the idea of making a Dragon Ball film, but one of them was successful and one of them was not.

I think this has a lot to do with the presentation and believability of whether or not they could actually pull it off. The documentary maker doesn't instill much confidence in you, while K & K does. At least more so.

And yes, I agree about Pafupafu swinging past the legal definitions. I'd say he has been talking in absolutes and ruling out a lot of completely legal possibilities for derivative works and fair use qualifiers.

For example, my book falls squarely in fair use guidelines and has been approved by FUNimation's legal team for publication, even though I will be profiting directly from it. When I say approved I don't mean they sent me an official certificate or letter stating that everything is A-OK. It means they said there's nothing they can do to stop me, nor do they want to, and they hope my project is a success. That K & K are specifically not charging anything should make it even more acceptable.

If anything FUNimation probably views it as a boon for their business since it's going to drum up the desire to purchase the real product within the minds of potentially millions of fans. Now Toei on the other hand, we'll have to wait and see how they react, but I doubt they'll even do anything.

Look, I understand you did an interview with these guys but there is a reason IndieGoGo exists and it is for people to get funding for their original idea and projects. Documentaries and Parodies are the only things usually covered by law as not infringing. Documentaries STILL need to get permission to use any imagery or clips. This project is neither.



Response from IndieGoGo:

GogoSandy, May 14 19:55 (PDT):
Hi ****,

Thanks for your note. This has been brought to our attention multiple times and we have asked the campaign owner to remove the images on their campaign and/or provide a statement or documentation that they have the right to post the content. Thank you for sharing this with us.


Cheers,
Sandy
--
Company: Indiegogo - www.indiegogo.com
Twitter: www.twitter.com/indiegogo
Blog: www.indiegogo.com/blog
Help Center: http://support.indiegogo.com/forums
Customer Happiness Hour! Dial-In Every Friday at 12:00pm PT 213-342-3000 pwd: 837745

[Pafupafu]

And even though I'm technically on the same side of the argument as pafu, he is generally swinging past the legal definition and throwing in purely his opinion on certain matters.

I have a strong opinion about this because I have met hundreds of independent filmmakers who have used IndieGoGo and the project K&K has listed is compromising the integrity of a useful tool. Legal or not, ethically, it was wrong of them to use IndieGoGo as a platform for this project.

[dbboxkaifan]

Look, I understand you did an interview with these guys but there is a reason IndieGoGo exists and it is for people to get funding for their original idea and projects. Documentaries and Parodies are the only things usually covered by law as not infringing. Documentaries STILL need to get permission to use any imagery or clips. This project is neither.



Response from IndieGoGo:

GogoSandy, May 14 19:55 (PDT):
Hi ****,

Thanks for your note. This has been brought to our attention multiple times and we have asked the campaign owner to remove the images on their campaign and/or provide a statement or documentation that they have the right to post the content. Thank you for sharing this with us.


Cheers,
Sandy
--
Company: Indiegogo - http://www.indiegogo.com
Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/indiegogo
Blog: http://www.indiegogo.com/blog
Help Center: http://support.indiegogo.com/forums
Customer Happiness Hour! Dial-In Every Friday at 12:00pm PT 213-342-3000 pwd: 837745

Thank you for this email, Pafupafu.

"The Super Space Warriors Invade Earth" to replace "Dragon Ball Z: Saiyan Saga" could work out fine.

[DerekPadula]

I have a strong opinion about this because I have met hundreds of independent filmmakers who have used IndieGoGo and the project K&K has listed is compromising the integrity of a useful tool. Legal or not, ethically, it was wrong of them to use IndieGoGo as a platform for this project.

Okay, fair enough. In your opinion is there a more suitable, more ethical platform available? Or is the idea of crowd sourcing for a normally licensed property (that is in this case unlicensed) for a derivative work wrong altogether, regardless of the particulars?

It's an interesting subject.

[Pafupafu]

I have a strong opinion about this because I have met hundreds of independent filmmakers who have used IndieGoGo and the project K&K has listed is compromising the integrity of a useful tool. Legal or not, ethically, it was wrong of them to use IndieGoGo as a platform for this project.

Okay, fair enough. In your opinion is there a more suitable, more ethical platform available? Or is the idea of crowd sourcing for a normally licensed property (that is in this case unlicensed) for a derivative work wrong altogether, regardless of the particulars?

It's an interesting subject.

There is no platform that allows for Independent Film Companies to be paid and funded for copyright infringing content. If they want to make any sort of money, whether for budget or not, it can not be public and they would need the consent of the copyright holders. Our legal system simply does not allow this. If you want to make a movie about Dragon Ball Z, go for it. But it must be made strictly as recreational with NO monetary value. The concept of a "Fan-Film" is that it is not for public release and is privately funded with ZERO incentives. As soon as said producers took this project public for funding, they violated the rights held by Toei/Funimation. These producers currently own ZERO PERCENT of this project as long as the Dragon Ball Z brand is a part of it. Intellectual Property, Production, and Distribution do not belong to anyone involved in their production, thus essentially making this a bootleg product.

The only way these guys do not get royally screwed and sued is if they can produce documentation of ownership or dollar for dollar spending receipts of the exact amount donated to the last penny. I doubt they have either.

Like I've said before, I'm NOT trying to be negative. I do, however, have somewhat of a vast experience in this situation and considering the violated brand name in question is one of my favorite series of all time, I had to voice my opinion. I would absolutely love to see a GOOD live-action Dragon Ball Z. Unfortunately, I don't think it is fair to break countless copyright laws and bastardize a website system that has helped fund thousands of ORIGINAL projects to see it.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. The bottom line is this our legal system does not allow for this project's existence.

[Pafupafu]

Look, I understand you did an interview with these guys but there is a reason IndieGoGo exists and it is for people to get funding for their original idea and projects. Documentaries and Parodies are the only things usually covered by law as not infringing. Documentaries STILL need to get permission to use any imagery or clips. This project is neither.



Response from IndieGoGo:

GogoSandy, May 14 19:55 (PDT):
Hi ****,

Thanks for your note. This has been brought to our attention multiple times and we have asked the campaign owner to remove the images on their campaign and/or provide a statement or documentation that they have the right to post the content. Thank you for sharing this with us.


Cheers,
Sandy
--
Company: Indiegogo - http://www.indiegogo.com
Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/indiegogo
Blog: http://www.indiegogo.com/blog
Help Center: http://support.indiegogo.com/forums
Customer Happiness Hour! Dial-In Every Friday at 12:00pm PT 213-342-3000 pwd: 837745

Thank you for this email, Pafupafu.

"The Super Space Warriors Invade Earth" to replace "Dragon Ball Z: Saiyan Saga" could work out fine.

Well unfortunately it is not up to these "producers" to decide what can be labeled "Dragon Ball" anything.

[Avenged]

A bit off topic, but anyone seen the Legend of Neil? They are making money off this live action Zelda parody with the future sale of DVDs and ads on the current videos. They didn't acquire permission from Nintendo to perform this web series.

[MarcFBR]

A bit off topic, but anyone seen the Legend of Neil? They are making money off this live action Zelda parody with the future sale of DVDs and ads on the current videos. They didn't acquire permission from Nintendo to perform this web series.

Parody is distinct and legally protected. I don't watch Legend of Neil, but from my understanding of it... Legend of Neil doesn't use any specific images owned by Nintendo but rather has recreated everything they need, nor do they use any specific scripts/etc owned by Ninteod. Any things they've straight 'remade' has been minor parts specifically in the use of the parody (which is allowed legally, to specific degrees.)

The issue with the DBZ thing is, and this is going by their own claims, they are simply taking a trailer they clipped together from DBZ clips, and refilming it with actors.


A lot of confusion comes up with parody and 'if' permission is needed because the person arguably most well known for 'parodies' (Weird Al) actively chooses to ask (and has publicly discussed songs he didn't do because he didn't receive permission), even though he has no legal obligation to do so. He does it out of respect for the people he is parodying, but he legally does not need to.

[Avenged]

Except the fact that Legend of Neil is a basic copy of the first Legend of Zelda game. The terms such as Zelda, Link, Ganon and Hyrule are all used. The names of items/weapons/enemies/areas all used. In game scripts such as "It's a secret to everybody" is used. And yes it is a parody nonetheless, the only project I believe that was taken down was the live action Zelda movie Hero of Time.

[DerekPadula]

Aww, man, Hero of Time was taken down? I saw the premiere of that in Los Angeles and did a movie review for The Epoch Times newspaper. I got to meet the cast and the head writer / actor / cameraman / director. He was a nice guy and I thought, for a fan film, it was entertaining. Not the greatest work of art ever made, mind you, but entertaining. Shame that it was taken down.

Bringing it back to Dragon Ball, I hope that doesn't happen to the Saiyan Saga.