Wierd thing about SSJ power

[Super Vegetto]

We all remember SSJ Goku vs Frieza. The gap was 30mill and Goku still looked more equal than stronger than Frieza.

Things i noticed and how many power ups :

Goku transformed : not sure how much boost he got with that form
He made first power up and 50% Frieza couldnt do anything
He made second power up
Than Frieza 70% who is at 80mill knocks him down. Diffrence here is that Frieza actualy made SSJ Goku having some trouble with 70% and before that he couldnt do anything, even with death beam in face.
Then Goku powers up again.
Then Frieza goes 100% and owns SSJ Goku
Goku launches kamehameha and Frieza isnt destroyed in instant. Frieza managed to go from side and knocks down SSJ Goku.
After that Goku powers up again and later he owns Frieza and in the end Frieza is finished.

So from far i get its like this :
Base Goku : 3mill
SSJ Goku tranformed : 65mill
SSJ Goku powers up : 70mill
SSJ Goku power up : 75mill
Frieza 70% : 80mill
SSJ Goku power up : 100mill
Frieza 100% : 120mill
Goku kamehameha : 110mill
Goku last power up : 150mill

I see no other explanation here.

Now Cell games :

FP Perfect Cell powers up and everyone can see Cells ki that shakes earth. Cell is confident which means he is > transformed Gohan.
After taking 2 punches he cant understand why is he so much damaged. Everyone is suprised in Gohans power.

In Boo saga we see Goku powering up to max in SSJ3. Why does he power up in SSJ3 form if SSJ form gives boost from base ?

So any explanation why is SSJ Goku owned by 70% Frieza and 100% Frieza, and why is Cell confident in taking down tranformed Gohan, and also surpised that 2 punches owned him while everyone else is suprised ?

[Darkprince410]

Goku made a few passing comments that suggested that, prior to Gohan and the others being wished to Earth by Porunga, he was actually holding back because of their presence there. Soon after Freeza reaches full power, he says that Goku must be buying time in hopes that they'll be able to escape, and Goku responds that he had no other desire than to fight Freeza. However, right afterwards, he thinks to himself that Gohan and the others are still on the planet and wonders what they're waiting on, suggesting that what he said to Freeza was a lie. Then later, when they're all wished away, Goku makes the comment that them being wished away (thus he and Freeza being the only ones on the planet) was what he was looking forward to, and then the two fight, with Goku seemingly having the advantage.

As such, I think Goku was intentionally just holding back to give them time to escape Namek, so that it wasn't prematurely destroyed because of the combined powers of the two fighting.

[Hitiro]

The problem with the powerlevels stated in Daizenshuu 7 is we don't know if they are their fresh powerlevels or their powerlevels after being battle worn in the fight. Goku could have been considerably closer to Frieza during the battle it Daizenshuu 7 is only on about what their powerlevels are when they are ready to fight. Considering Frieza and Goku both took considerable damage during the fight I would say their powerlevels had dropped a bit to the point where they evened out. Also if we go by Daizenshuu 7 and SSJ is a multiplier of 50 then Goku would fluctuate his base ki in his transformed state which would change his SSJ ki. Goku transforming into a SSJ with his maximum powerlevel would equal his maximum SSJ ki output so his powerlevel would be 150 mill straight off the bat. To be honest I think your taking the panels of the fight a little too literal, there is no indication of Goku powering up in the manga apart from him clenching his fists and his aura slightly changing but that could be due to the rage he was feeling at the loss of his friend. There were no Kiai's performed when it looked like he was powering up which is something they do while powering up. The real reason I think Frieza lost is because his power was decreasing from pushing himself at 100% it probably was a similar deal to how Vegeta and Trunks were using up a lot of energy in the 2nd and 3rd grade SSJ forms.

[Super Vegetto]

Ok we cleared SSJ Goku and Frieza.

Now on Cell vs Gohan, and ofc more questions :

Why Goku neads to be in SSJ3 to achive full power, and why SSJ kids powered up to max in SSJ form before learining fusion ?

Shouldnt they just tranform and get correct boost and not powering up ?

[Hitiro]

Ok we cleared SSJ Goku and Freeza.

Now on Cell vs Gohan, and ofc more questions :

Why Goku neads to be in SSJ3 to achive full power, and why SSJ kids powered up to max in SSJ form before learining fusion ?

Shouldnt they just tranform and get correct boost and not powering up ?

The Cell vs Gohan thing is probably to do with Cell not understanding the scope of Gohan's power, it's hard to tell how strong someone is if they aren't going full out. If I were a Z warrior for instance and was sensing my opponent I would be able to sense his/her present powerlevel. But how do I know how much that is away from his/her maximum? It could be their powerlevel at 100% or their powerlevel at 1%

The reason Goku powers up to maximum power in SSJ3 is like I said earlier, I'll try to be more clear.

If we take Goku's base powerlevel, let's say its 3 million for arguments sake. Goku will not always be at his maximum base powerlevel, in his everyday life he may subconsciously use 50% so his powerlevel would be 1.5 million. What happens when he transforms into a SSJ when he is at 50% of his maximum powerlevel? The boost from SSJ will apply to only that portion of his powerlevel so instead of having 150 million he has a powerlevel of 75 million. By powering up Goku is effectively pushing what his base powerlevel was at, in this case 1.5 million, back to its maximum which is 3 million. Because the SSJ forms are a multiplier of the users base powerlevel as long as he increases his base powerlevel while in the SSJ form the multiplier is still applied. So if Goku wants to use more power, let's say 75%, then powering up his base powerlevel to 2.25 million while he is in SSJ will give him 112.5 million.

So in essence Goku was not using his full base powerlevel(With the SSJ3 boost) when he was fighting Boo, this is why he needed to powerup.

To be honest I felt the battle between SSJ Goku and Frieza was pretty even, I'm not sure about the 70% power thing your talking about though, I did not see Frieza do anything to Goku without being at 100% Goku also brings up a good question before Frieza powers up to 100% and that is "Why go to full power now? Maybe.. Because your body can't handle it for long anymore?" < This sentence basically point out the fact that Frieza's body can't support 100% for long due to the condition it is in so his power would be dropping if he holds it for too long.

[Super Vegetto]

So you say that FP Perfect Cell is > tranformed Gohan ?

SSJ Goku takes death beam in face and isnt badly damaged and every atk Frieza done was nothing to him.

Frieza 70%
http://comic.dragonballcn.com:1080/list ... -6y8F4.jpg
http://comic.dragonballcn.com:1080/list ... -4qI5u.jpg

This shows Goku not beeing on 150 from start.


"There were no Kiai's performed when it looked like he was powering up which is something they do while powering up".

Can you show couple of examples ?

[Hitiro]

So you say that FP Perfect Cell is > tranformed Gohan ?

SSJ Goku takes death beam in face and isnt badly damaged and every atk Freeza done was nothing to him.

Freeza 70%
http://comic.dragonballcn.com:1080/list ... -6y8F4.jpg
http://comic.dragonballcn.com:1080/list ... -4qI5u.jpg

This shows Goku not beeing on 150 from start.


"There were no Kiai's performed when it looked like he was powering up which is something they do while powering up".

Can you show couple of examples ?

I'm saying FP Perfect Cell thinks he is more powerful than Gohan. Like I said, you can sense a persons ki and for the most part all the characters who can sense ki generally know whether someone is holding back a bit but as to how much a person is holding back that isn't really something you can accurately guess. Cell probably assumed Gohan was fighting near his full potential as being the smug person he is, he thinks nobody is as strong as him. Everybody could sense Gohan was strong but they couldn't sense his maximum power because he was currently using it so they had no idea whether he was close to 100%

To be honest blowing back someone with a Kiai isn't that impressive, you can't really say that Frieza was owning Goku. Not to mention it caught him off guard, would you say Kid Trunks owned Boo when he kicked him away from Vegeta? It was just a lucky punch. Kid Trunks is nowhere near Boo's powerlevel so it just goes to show that if your caught off guard you can be knocked away easily.

Scans are bad so I will tell you the volumes and pages of a few:
Volume: 15 Page: 102
Volume: 19 Page: 80
Volume: 19 Page: 218 (Notice Goku starts by using Kaioken and while using the technique starts powering up as Kaioken multiplies your current powerlevel which was not at its maximum when he started using it.)
Volume: 26 Page: 36
Volume: 26 Page: 181
Volume: 26 Page: 182
Volume: 27 Page: 12

[Super Vegetto]

So you say that Cell though he is stronger, yet everyone else and Cell didnt noticed that Gohan is by wide diffrence > Cell ?

You got a point with powering up. Goten and Trunks clearly power up because they didnt powered up in base to max. But that only means that every saiyan that didnt powered up before tranforming is no where near max.

Not realy for " characters can sence when someone is holding back ". Everyone is surpised with Cell going full power. I bet Goku didnt even knowed that Cell can get anymore stronger, and that is only one proof.

Chapter: 409 (DBZ 215), P8.2-4
Context: after Cell powers up
Goku: “S-so we finally get to see Cell fight at full power”
Kuririn: “This ki is so astounding, it’s like the entire Earth is shaking.”
Gohan: “What’s the big deal?”

I still cant see Cell beeing so confident and Krillin stating his ki. Cell is suprised that Gohan sad "what about it" but later keaps smilling because he clearly comperes them in strenght.

But for sake of this debate i say that Cell realy is a smug person because same happend to Boohan. Only thing here is because others beeing suprised at Cells power and Cell getting owned by Gohan like they didnt knowed Gohan is using full power from the moment he tranformed.

[Hitiro]

So you say that Cell though he is stronger, yet everyone else and Cell didnt noticed that Gohan is by wide diffrence > Cell ?

You got a point with powering up. Goten and Trunks clearly power up because they didnt powered up in base to max. But that only means that every saiyan that didnt powered up before tranforming is no where near max.

Not realy for " characters can sence when someone is holding back ". Everyone is surpised with Cell going full power. I bet Goku didnt even knowed that Cell can get anymore stronger, and that is only one proof.

Chapter: 409 (DBZ 215), P8.2-4
Context: after Cell powers up
Goku: “S-so we finally get to see Cell fight at full power”
Kuririn: “This ki is so astounding, it’s like the entire Earth is shaking.”
Gohan: “What’s the big deal?”

I still cant see Cell beeing so confident and Krillin stating his ki. Cell is suprised that Gohan sad "what about it" but later keaps smilling because he clearly comperes them in strenght.

But for sake of this debate i say that Cell realy is a smug person because same happend to Boohan. Only thing here is because others beeing suprised at Cells power and Cell getting owned by Gohan like they didnt knowed Gohan is using full power from the moment he tranformed.

You seem to be missing what I said about characters holding back, they may be able to sense if someone is holding back or not but not by how much. It has always been guesses as to how powerful an enemy who hasn't used their full strength is, if we take Goku vs Frieza then Frieza said that he estimates that if he uses half of his maximum power it would be enough to defeat Goku. Goku thought that he was bluffing about this and he even says "If he really is only using 50% of his power like he says then I'm sunk." < From this we can gather that while Goku can sense that Frieza has some power hidden away he has no clue as to how much. Goku bet on the Kaioken x20 to defeat Frieza hoping that Frieza was in close to his maximum power but we know that, that was not the case.

They knew Cell was not at his maximum when he was fighting but they didn't know how powerful he was at his maximum, the Z warriors were surprised by the amount he demonstrated because what they saw of his powerlevel before they most likely assumed it was something like 90% of his power. However, when he actually powered up to his maximum power they were probably shocked to find that he was using something like 80% or 70% I believe Goku or the gang never mentioned that they thought he was fighting at his maximum power before he actually did power up against Gohan, they just said he's "stronger than Goku".