DragonBall Opposing Views: Cell's power after he returned

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Could you please elaborate on the above quote? He had no idea if that was his full-power or not, so he wasn't sure.

[Fox666]

Kaioshin just said that it might not have been Gohan's full power, so it does not necessarily means that Kaioshin had seen more power than Gohan could release in Super Saiyan form.

Of course that kind of stuff could make more sense if Gohan was a Super Saiyan 2, but again I don't think strength-related quotes should be given that much importance to decide what form a character was or not. There have been other instances which not everything makes sense, like Babidi and Dabra saying Piccolo was trash while the Saiyans were not Super Saiyan.

[Mystic Gohan]

If you go by the view that the only power gohan actualy lost was his ability to gain power from rage, then you can make a case that dabura=spc.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Yeah, Kaioushin doesn't necessarily know that much about Super Saiyan. But it was never said that they could control their ki in Super Saiyan 2; only regular Super Saiyan after mastering it. Unless we're talking about how characters' ki can flare during battle (like Gohan only sensing Videl's ki when she began fighting the robbers).

[Fox666]

I am talking about something like that. While they may not be able to control their Ki, it doesn't mean their Ki will be always maximized.

Chapter: 334 (DBZ 140), P7.3
Context: seeing Super Saiyan Goku
Yamcha: “Wh…what ki…and he’s not even fighting…”

[Bussani]

While they may not be able to control their Ki, it doesn't mean their Ki will be always maximized.

Especially in Gohan's case. His ki fluctuates whether he has conscious control over it or not.

[Eight-Star Dragon]

I like to think Gohan was above Cell the whole time, but not by too much.

Off-topic, but I had a discussion with my friend on the subject (he's a big Vegeta fan, so needless to say he was really playing up Vegeta's final attack) but I didn't really mention the 3 different viewpoints. He said that Super Perfect Cell had the power of a Super Saiyan 3. Yeah. I couldn't really reason with him...

[Dabooyaka]

This may be slightly of topic, but I've had this question for a while, and I figured this would be a great place to ask. How did Cell even get a zenkai? Vegeta told Kuririn back on Namek that Kuririn had to blast him since he wouldn't get a zenkai if he did the damage himself. Cell blew himself up, so he shouldn't get a zenkai. Is this a plothole?

[dbgtFO]

Is this a plothole?

No, Goku almost killed himself with those Kamehamehas, when training on his way to Namek, but he still got stronger from it, so Cell receiving one that way is not a plothole.
As for Vegeta's statement. IIRC it's worded in a way that makes it sounds like he couldn't damage himself and so he needed Krillin to do it for him. Not that he wouldn't get a near death power-up because of special rules or anything.

[Dabooyaka]

Ahhh, gotcha.

[Super Vegetto]

My opinion is that Gohan ssj2 was still superior to Super Perfect Cell...first is because he draws his powers from anger and he got that transformation from anger while Goku and Vegeta achived it betwen 1-7 years..they were above his level for sure in ssj1 or mastered ssj1 in the time of 7 years in training but his anger raised his energy and pushed him to that level...its like ssj2 Majin Vegeta > Normal Vegeta ssj2,,majin boost and Gohan anger boost..and reason Cell damaged Gohan so much is because Gohan wasnt so much concetrated in his blast while saving Vegeta cuz than if he damaged him while he was concetrated on blast would mean Cell > Gohan ssj2 which by my opinion doesnt make sence,,,one more reason is that Cell didnt used his full power in that wawe cuz Gohans power was cut in half but still that doesnt mean his power is like good condition ssj1...Gohans inner strenght that he draws with anger helped him,, so lets say Cell never sad "good by !!!" and in that moment Goku sad "now !!!" i think Cell wouldn't have time to prevent his inner strenght..something like Gohan attack on Raditz where when his power break free he cant stop so Raditz wouldn't probably stop his attack with hands until he recive it...Only reason i say that is becaue there is Buu saga which Old kai clearly sad he has much potential but when Cell saga finished i though that ssj2 was Gohans true power and that he mastered his power but since there was much more potential in Gohan only reason he beated Cell is his inner strenght and ofc Gokus motivation...

[Bussani]

At someone else's suggestion, I'm replying to something from another thread in this one, because it's more on-topic here.

There is a difference when a casual attack hurts an enemy and when one shuts down part of their body

But Piccolo Daimao's attacks did shut down parts of Goku's body. He couldn't use his leg at all after being hit there, and he then lost the use of his other leg and an arm when he had no choice but to stand there and take Daimao's attacks without defending himself.

Gohan saw the attack and took it head on yes but if he was naturally so much stronger than Cell than his feat directly after suggested he wouldn't have been this damaged.

I didn't say Gohan was stronger. What I said was Cell didn't need to be "much stronger" than Gohan to injure him like that. They could have been about the same.

Goku could take his own energy attacks in the spaceship without such damage, he even slipped up once if I recall and found his body had the durability to take his own attacks without bracing. His attacks didn't shut his body down, he had enough durability to take the attacks.

I don't see any part where he slips in the manga. The only time he fires ki blasts at himself, he lets them hit him on purpose and almost dies in the process, having to crawl on his belly just to get a senzu bean. He literally says something like, "That was almost the end of me! This training would all be pointless if I went and killed myself now!" If he didn't have senzu beans with him, he may not have survived...but that's the reason he got all those near-death-power-ups, after all.

[Nex Carnifex]

At someone else's suggestion, I'm replying to something from another thread in this one, because it's more on-topic here.

There is a difference when a casual attack hurts an enemy and when one shuts down part of their body

But Piccolo Daimao's attacks did shut down parts of Goku's body. He couldn't use his leg at all after being hit there, and he then lost the use of his other leg and an arm when he had no choice but to stand there and take Daimao's attacks without defending himself.

Gohan saw the attack and took it head on yes but if he was naturally so much stronger than Cell than his feat directly after suggested he wouldn't have been this damaged.

I didn't say Gohan was stronger. What I said was Cell didn't need to be "much stronger" than Gohan to injure him like that. They could have been about the same.

Goku could take his own energy attacks in the spaceship without such damage, he even slipped up once if I recall and found his body had the durability to take his own attacks without bracing. His attacks didn't shut his body down, he had enough durability to take the attacks.

I don't see any part where he slips in the manga. The only time he fires ki blasts at himself, he lets them hit him on purpose and almost dies in the process, having to crawl on his belly just to get a senzu bean. He literally says something like, "That was almost the end of me! This training would all be pointless if I went and killed myself now!" If he didn't have senzu beans with him, he may not have survived...but that's the reason he got all those near-death-power-ups, after all.

He eventually could take his attacks with no problem I thought, I guess I'll have to read that part of the manga but that is how it was in Kai. Well I agree they had to at least have been close in power, but the event shows how easily Cell could kill Gohan in a normal fight from how I see it, he had his ki shield up that much was apparent, how else do they protect their bodies? Also Dragon Ball is a lot different than DBZ when it comes to energy attack damage, in DBZ they seem to take a lot more before going down, even from equals. Just look at Goku's 1st fight with Vegeta, Vegeta kept coming back from everything.

[Bussani]

He eventually could take his attacks with no problem I thought, I guess I'll have to read that part of the manga but that is how it was in Kai. Well I agree they had to at least have been close in power, but the event shows how easily Cell could kill Gohan in a normal fight from how I see it, he had his ki shield up that much was apparent, how else do they protect their bodies? Also Dragon Ball is a lot different than DBZ when it comes to energy attack damage, in DBZ they seem to take a lot more before going down, even from equals. Just look at Goku's 1st fight with Vegeta, Vegeta kept coming back from everything.

In the manga he just almost kills himself with his own attacks. He turns the gravity back down to normal on the next page. And since this was after the fight with Vegeta, I'm not sure you can blame it on a difference between Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z.

I don't think that it shows Cell could have killed him easily in a normal fight. In a normal fight, Gohan would dodge, block, or deflect such an attack, rather than throw himself in its way and take the hit. There's a big difference between blocking and taking a hit.

Also, an aura has never been described as a "ki shield".

[012yArthur0]

I believe that Gohan was a little stronger than Cell, and that's it.

After all, it was shown many times the difference of a strong attack and a surprise weak attack. When the warrior loses focus, his Ki drops a lot because he is not concetrated enough to use it at will.

Two surprise attacks happened in the scenario;

1.Gohan taking a "uncharged" ki blast, meaning that he wasn't paying attention to it because he was focusing on speed to save vegeta's ass.

2.Cell Eating a Super Kamehameha after taking a "surprise attack" from vegeta. Sure, the attack wasn't strong, but "injuried" enough to make Cell actually pay attention to it.

In fact, rage seems to change more about Gohan power level than any other character.

I don't really understand much about "SSj2 = 2x SSJ boost" though. Where is this proof? If so, SSj3 = 3x SSJ Boost, which is 150x Boost from base form, which is 1.5x Boost from SSj2. Also, it doesn't make much sense. If SSJ2 Gohan lost 50% of his power (Meaning he was just a SSJ With a even spikier hair), doesn't mean that a "enraged" SSJ Gohan is stronger than a SSJ2?


And...
@Bussani: It's even more emplies that he wasn't focused. If he was calm enough to do think, why he just didn't Kiai'd Vegeta, or throw a Energy ball to collide with Cell's blast, changing the target?

[Bussani]

I don't really understand much about "SSj2 = 2x SSJ boost" though. Where is this proof? If so, SSj3 = 3x SSJ Boost, which is 150x Boost from base form, which is 1.5x Boost from SSj2.

That multiplier comes from the Super Exciting Guide. The same guide says that Super Saiyan 3 is four times stronger than Super Saiyan 2.

Also, it doesn't make much sense. If SSJ2 Gohan lost 50% of his power (Meaning he was just a SSJ With a even spikier hair), doesn't mean that a "enraged" SSJ Gohan is stronger than a SSJ2?

Any Super Saiyan could potentially be stronger than a Super Saiyan 2, really. However, Super Saiyan 2 seems to be how Gohan's rage manifests at that point. That's how it felt to me, at least. Like another guide says, while Goku and Vegeta had to work for the power of Super Saiyan 2, Gohan already had the power lurking inside him.

And...
@Bussani: It's even more emplies that he wasn't focused. If he was calm enough to do think, why he just didn't Kiai'd Vegeta, or throw a Energy ball to collide with Cell's blast, changing the target?

It's probably a bit of both. Maybe, if he'd been able to think faster, he could have pulled something off. Hindsight is 20/20.

[DHM211]

I believe that Gohan was a little stronger than Cell, and that's it.

After all, it was shown many times the difference of a strong attack and a surprise weak attack. When the warrior loses focus, his Ki drops a lot because he is not concetrated enough to use it at will.

Two surprise attacks happened in the scenario;

1.Gohan taking a "uncharged" ki blast, meaning that he wasn't paying attention to it because he was focusing on speed to save vegeta's ass.

2.Cell Eating a Super Kamehameha after taking a "surprise attack" from vegeta. Sure, the attack wasn't strong, but "injuried" enough to make Cell actually pay attention to it.

In fact, rage seems to change more about Gohan power level than any other character.

I don't really understand much about "SSj2 = 2x SSJ boost" though. Where is this proof? If so, SSj3 = 3x SSJ Boost, which is 150x Boost from base form, which is 1.5x Boost from SSj2. Also, it doesn't make much sense. If SSJ2 Gohan lost 50% of his power (Meaning he was just a SSJ With a even spikier hair), doesn't mean that a "enraged" SSJ Gohan is stronger than a SSJ2?


And...
@Bussani: It's even more emplies that he wasn't focused. If he was calm enough to do think, why he just didn't Kiai'd Vegeta, or throw a Energy ball to collide with Cell's blast, changing the target?

SSJ = 50 base forms, SSJ 2 = 7 SSJ forms or 350 base forms, SSJ 3 = 10 SSJ 2 forms, 70 SSJ forms and 500 base forms.

[Bussani]

SSJ = 50 base forms, SSJ 2 = 7 SSJ forms or 350 base forms, SSJ 3 = 10 SSJ 2 forms, 70 SSJ forms and 500 base forms.

Where do you get all that?

[Nex Carnifex]

He eventually could take his attacks with no problem I thought, I guess I'll have to read that part of the manga but that is how it was in Kai. Well I agree they had to at least have been close in power, but the event shows how easily Cell could kill Gohan in a normal fight from how I see it, he had his ki shield up that much was apparent, how else do they protect their bodies? Also Dragon Ball is a lot different than DBZ when it comes to energy attack damage, in DBZ they seem to take a lot more before going down, even from equals. Just look at Goku's 1st fight with Vegeta, Vegeta kept coming back from everything.

In the manga he just almost kills himself with his own attacks. He turns the gravity back down to normal on the next page. And since this was after the fight with Vegeta, I'm not sure you can blame it on a difference between Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z.

I don't think that it shows Cell could have killed him easily in a normal fight. In a normal fight, Gohan would dodge, block, or deflect such an attack, rather than throw himself in its way and take the hit. There's a big difference between blocking and taking a hit.

Also, an aura has never been described as a "ki shield".

I'm just saying the characters became more super hero in nature after than fight with vegeta and could take massive beatings before being done, also demonstrated in multiple times on Namek. I'm just wondering if characters of near equal strength can so easily kill each other with weak attacks how did Vegeta survive so long even after taking a full power Kamehameha head on from a Goku that was matching his strength if not surpassing it slightly at that point. How many attacks did Goku use on himself before almost dying? And in a normal fight both characters would be landing a couple of casual attacks at least, if they can so easily harm each other with energy then all they need is to take advantage of one little moment. Also, I always thought as long as they had some kind of aura up they were protected, otherwise they were vulnerable from say a surprise knockout from behind like Goku vs Majin Vegeta. This was also supported in the anime scene with Kuririn throwing a rock at Goku but that is the anime which is silly sometimes. Another forum I go to used that term I think it has some truth to it and Gohan was definitely still in a battle mode even if he blocked the blast with his shoulder instead of his forearm.

[Bussani]

I'm just wondering if characters of near equal strength can so easily kill each other with weak attacks how did Vegeta survive so long even after taking a full power Kamehameha head on from a Goku that was matching his strength if not surpassing it slightly at that point.

Vegeta later blasts a massive chunk of Cell's body to dust despite being much weaker than him. People generally seem to believe that Vegeta is an incredibly endurable guy, but it could also be that ki attacks got better and better as the story progressed.

And in a normal fight both characters would be landing a couple of casual attacks at least, if they can so easily harm each other with energy then all they need is to take advantage of one little moment.

Exactly. That's why you don't let your guard down while fighting. Ki blasts would be completely pointless if they didn't do anything. Punching and kicking probably would be, too.

Anyway, I don't really agree with the "aura = ki shield" way of thinking, and we probably aren't ever going to agree on anything else, either. Shall we just agree to disagree?