Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

[Saimaroimaru]

I love how the Dai Kaioshin is standing in the background like he is. There's something just, cool about him. He acted like the leader this entire special, in yet South Kaioshin has the highest battle power. It's like Dai Kaioshin is the king and South Kaioshin is the knight. He has this, enigmatic feel to him. He truly may be the most gifted of all the Kaioshin, whatever that means...

Well, what the anime and Buu's overall abilities after the absorption led me to believe is that despite the fact that South Kaioshin is the strongest, Dai Kaioshin is the most powerful and resourceful. As an example, Buu's transformation beam (the one he uses for candy and stuff) only comes around after he absorbed Dai Kaioshin.

That is what I am thinking, Fat Buu's magic abilities come from Dai Kaioshin while he strength and power is coming from South Kaoishin with it of course being tempered by the Kai's goodness/holiness. At least anime-wise. Sort of like absorbing a Warrior and a Wizard.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

[ChahikoDBZ]

Can't wait to see how this fight turns out.

[CashmanX]

$10 says he gets absorbed or tuned into chocolate.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

$10 says he gets absorbed or tuned into chocolate.

Southern Kaioshin: I know his secret weakness. That's the way I will defeat him. No one knows this secret, but me! The secret to kill Majin Boo is...
Majin Boo: Chocolate Beam!

[rereboy]

So far, I'm liking this fight.

[Saiga]

If you hadn't ever watched the anime and had only read the manga, what would your interpretation be of why Buu absorbed them?

Pure Boo is an unpredictable chaotic being. If S. Kaioshin was the strongest, than Boo + Kaioshin would be too much for the Dai Kaioshin and he wouldn't need to absorb him, so it's not about strength.

Everytime he absorbed someone in the manga, he did it because there were opponents fighting him and giving him enough trouble for him to turn to absorption.

We only saw him do that on two occasions (three counting the failed attempt on Vegetto). And Evil Boo "absorbed" Fat Boo when he'd already won the fight. Besides, Evil Boo is a different entity than Pure Boo and we know nothing of S. Kaioshin Boo (but I'd say he

Therefore, and since its stated in the manga that he only absorbed one Kaioshin and the Dai Kaioshin, its logical to assume that they were somehow different from the rest of the Kaioshins or did something different from the rest.
And as to what they did, since Buu was only shown in the manga to turn to absorption when there were fighters giving him trouble, its also logical to assume that South Kaioshin and Dai Kaioshin managed to give him trouble, either because of their strength or because they had abilities that were giving Buu trouble.

Or that Pure Boo, who is completely incapable of reasoning with and only does things for the hell of it, absorbed them for no reason other than sadism. Evil Boo isn't Pure Boo.

The anime in this case didn't show us nothing that we couldn't interpret logically from the manga. Its actually the most logical interpretation.

It's not a very logical interpretation at all. Boo was stated to be far too powerful for the Kaioshin to handle, and it wouldn't be logical that he would need to absorb the Dai Kaioshin if S. Kaioshin is the strongest. Furthermore, Gohan should be stronger than any of the Kaioshin.

What we can see in the manga is that it was a sword which was enchanted to imprison a Kaioshin by someone who knew the Kaioshins well enough to fear the Old Kaioshin's ability and had the power and knowledge to imprison him on that sword and, of course, that it was very heavy and couldn't cut Katchin.

So no, we know quite a bit about the sword and we know more than it was just heavy.

Which is why it's rather weak to make up some theory out of goddamn nowhere. The only thing in the manga stopping people from pulling it out is how heavy the damn thing is. There is absolutely no allusion to an enchantment protecting it from Kaioshin.

If a being with that knowledge and magical power was able to do that to Old Kaioshin, there is nothing to suggest that he wouldn't predict that other Kaioshins would try to remove the sword and eventually break it, so it would make sense for him to concentrate his magical efforts in preventing Kaioshins from removing the sword.
However, there was no reason for him to expect that somebody other from Kaioshins and their servants would try to remove the sword since it was on their realm, which would further explain why he would concentrate his magical efforts in preventing Kaioshins from removing the sword.

Why would he predict that they would try to break it, when it was clear none of them ever knew he was sealed in there? Also, if he was capable of adding an enchantment to stop it being pulled out by the Kaioshin, he should have done some enchantment to prevent it from breaking. We know nothing of this being, but I think that he simply sealed the Old Kaioshin in the sword and thought that was it, being completely unaware that breaking the sword would release the seal.

As for South Kaioshin never trying it before he died, its not impossible but I also think that he tried it before dying, which is why I'm more fond of the other theory.

A theory that makes thing more convoluted and made up out of nothing rather than going with the simple explanation that he wasn't in Boo's league.

As for it being cheap, well, personally I think its a very cool and logical theory that explains, at least partly, a plothole of the story and makes sense of South Kaioshin's power. I find that much better than other theories that aren't as good as this one at explaining it or just having no possible explanation for the plothole.

It's not a plothole of the story at all. It's only a plothole when you start throwing in the anime or fan theories and have to resort to more fan theories just to make sense of it.

There is no plothole there in the manga. People throw that term around too much.

[TonyTheTiger]

I figure Majin Buu would win if only because he'd make a more interesting opponent for Uub.

[Scarz]

I figure Majin Buu would win if only because he'd make a more interesting opponent for Uub.

Yeah, I kinda guessing that too. I'm hoping Salagir will throw a curve ball at us and S. Kaioshin wins.

[Saiga]

General consensus is that Pure Boo is stronger than Fat Boo, so following DBM logic S. Kaioshin should be stronger than Fat Boo.

[dprez]

O snap. Can't wait to see what the mighty South Kaioshin does.

I'm guessing Dai Kaioshin warned him, or South Kaioshin learned the previous night that "this Boo killed us all and absorbed both of us in his universe." South Kaioshin may attempt some sort of trickery here...

[Majin Boo]

Doesn't the chapter cover make it seem highly likely that it means they know how Majin Boo came to have that form, and he's going to free the Kaioushin from him?

I also don't see how pure Boo would stick around, seeing as he's uncontrollable and chaotic. I imagine he'll get sent back to his universe after the match regardless of whether he wins or not.

[rereboy]

...

As I've said, and you apparently missed, the Kaioshins that he absorbed probably caused him trouble either because of their strength or abilities. I didn't state it was all about strength as you seem to imply.

As for the rest of your post, you basically are just stating your views on why what I said can't work or might not work since there are other ways of looking at it. The thing is, I never tried to suggest that what I stated is the "truth". Its just a interpretation, a theory (if you will just) like many others. Therefore, its pointless to try to say that its not the "truth", since that was never my purpose.
Since the story at that point is rather vague and logically incoherent in some aspects, there will always be at least some worthwhile counter-arguments for any theory we might have. Whatever your theories are, I'm sure I could do just what you did: state a numbers of reasons why something you said might not work or can't work.

Ergo, the best we can do is develop a theory that best fits in the story and that we like. Therefore, I would prefer that you stated a theory (or theories) that I thought fitted better in the story than what I stated. That's pretty much the only thing that would be worthwhile. But you didn't do that. What you did, like I said, was just state a number of reasons on why some aspects of it might not work or can't work, things that I'm very well aware from the start. But, alas, even with all those things (and even more) what I said is still what fits best and explains most, I believe, which was my point.

[Saiga]

I was basically saying how much I hated that theory because their isn't even a need for it and it makes a lot of assumptions. As their is no plot hole present in the manga, there isn't much need for theorizing on the subject.

[rereboy]

I was basically saying how much I hated that theory because their isn't even a need for it and it makes a lot of assumptions. As their is no plot hole present in the manga, there isn't much need for theorizing on the subject.

I don't agree.

From wikipedia: "A plot hole, or plothole, is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot, or constitutes a blatant omission of relevant information regarding the plot. These include such things as unlikely behaviour or actions of characters, illogical or impossible events, events happening for no apparent reason, or statements/events that contradict earlier events in the storyline."

In this case, the plothole revolves around the sword, the power needed to remove the sword and South Kaioshin.

East Kaioshin is stated to be the weakest of the Kaioshins. But he is still able to immobilize a SSJ2 Gohan at the tournament with his power. Later, without Gohan becoming visibly a SSJ2 while fighting Fat Buu, Easth Kaioshin somehow becomes very impressed by Gohan and even states to his helper that he "didn't see Gohan's power" despite the fact that Gohan turned SSJ2 right in from of his helper at the tournament, but wasn't visibly a SSJ2 against Buu or Dabura.

Even later than that, Gohan, without becoming visibly a SSJ2, is able to remove the Z sword, something that no Kaioshin in history had ever done, despite the fact that the current generation's weakest member had enough power to immobilize Gohan at his full power (SSJ2).

This matter alone with Gohan and his transformations is a plothole but even the comparison with his SSJ2 and the weakest Kaioshin seems strange... If the weakest Kaioshin is able to immobilize him at his SSJ2 and Gohan is able to remove the sword without even being visibly a SSJ2, then it seems very strange that no Kaioshin ever was able to match the kind of power that Gohan used to remove the sword. This alone, to me, would be a plothole or a possible plothole.

But then it becomes even more complicated. South Kaioshin is introduced and stated to be the strongest. Buff Buu is explained to be the form that Buu took after he absorbed him and it seems to be implied that that Buu is stronger than Super Buu. We don't know by how much and how they exactly compare, but it does seem to imply that South Kaioshin made quite a difference. Also, it is stated that only he and Dai Kaioshin are absorbed. Why? Could it be that Kid Buu just felt like it like you stated? Its possible, but it seems unlikely. If it was random, why of all the Kaioshins would Buu absorb both the strongest and the hightest deity? There should a reason, and the only reason provided in the manga for absorption was necessity, which is another argument for their power and/or abilities.
With these plots elements introduced what was already strange becomes downright implausible. These plot elements seem to speak out for South Kaioshin's power. But then why wouldn't he be able to match Gohan's power when he removed the sword? Could he be weaker than Gohan? But then why would Buu choose him and Dai Kaioshin then? Why is Buff Buu stronger than Super Buu?

Whatever we might choose to answer this questions, stating that there is no plothole is stretching it. There are logical inconsistencies all over either because they weren't properly explained or because they seem to contradict other events in the manga.

[Saiga]

No, it's a fallacy to assume that E. Kaioshin restraining SS2 Gohan proves anything. It's only because of his magic that he could immobilize him. In fact, he has a great deal of difficulty in doing so and is surprised that he would have difficulty, so everything in the story suggests that Gohan was far stronger than expected and stronger than the previous Kaioshins. Not a plothole.

Saying it is a plot hole that Boo absorbed South Kaioshin is a stretch, because we don't know enough about the situation to say it actually contradicts anything. Evil Boo did it out of necessity, yes, but the Elder Kaioshin certainly didn't act as if it was only done out of necessity - he mentions that Kibitoshin was too weak to fight Boo and would end up getting absorbed himself, so apparently it is reasonable for Boo to absorb someone relatively weak. Pure Boo is a different character than Evil Boo, and we don't know how he ticks. He could have just absorbed them instinctively, or done it for sadism, but even without an explanation it's not a plot hole because nothing is contradicted.

[rereboy]

No, it's a fallacy to assume that E. Kaioshin restraining SS2 Gohan proves anything. It's only because of his magic that he could immobilize him.

Stop right there. Nowhere does it state that the reason he was able to do it was because of magic and not strength. So, by stating that was due to his magic you are already using a personal interpretation not based on anything concrete (since there literally is nothing suggesting that it was purely due to magic and not strength) to justify something that isn't really explained in the manga.

You are already explaining the plothole with a personal interpretation while stating that there is no plothole.

And without the sort of explanation you just used it just seems weird or incoherent. Its only makes sense when we try to explain it with a explanation of our own like: "It was only due to his magic not his strength, otherwise he wouldn't be able to" "Oh, that makes sense!".

And your interpretation (or anyone's else) is not, without a doubt, the truth. The situation allows multiple and possible interpretations which try to explain the plothole.

In short, there's a lot of possible interpretations for it, but to say its not a plothole... I don't think its right. Its precisely because it is a plothole that it allows for that multiple interpretations trying to justify it. To say otherwise, basically means that we are already believing that our interpretation is the only explanation, the only possible truth. And that is wrong (at least regarding this example).

So, do you see how pointless it is to talk in absolutes here? Like I said, the only worthwhile point is to reach a interpretation or theory that fits best with the story. And that's pretty much it. And of course, hardly anyone will agree in what that theory or theories are or should be since what fits bets also depends on opinion.

That is why I don't really bash on anyone's theories and interpretations (unless they really don't make sense).

[Saiga]

No, it's a fallacy to assume that E. Kaioshin restraining SS2 Gohan proves anything. It's only because of his magic that he could immobilize him.

Stop right there. Nowhere does it state that the reason he was able to do it was because of magic and not strength. So, by stating that was due to his magic you are already using a personal interpretation not based on anything concrete (since there literally is nothing suggesting that it was purely due to magic and not strength) to justify something that isn't really explained in the manga.

You are already explaining the plothole with a personal interpretation while stating that there is no plothole.

And without the sort of explanation you just used it just seems weird or incoherent. Its only makes sense when we try to explain it with a explanation of our own like: "It was only due to his magic not his strength, otherwise he wouldn't be able to" "Oh, that makes sense!".

And your interpretation (or anyone's else) is not, without a doubt, the truth. The situation allows multiple and possible interpretations which try to explain the plothole.

In short, there's a lot of possible interpretations for it, but to say its not a plothole... I don't think its right. Its precisely because it is a plothole that it allows for that multiple interpretations trying to justify it. To say otherwise, basically means that we are already believing that our interpretation is the only explanation, the only possible truth. And that is wrong (at least regarding this example).

So, do you see how pointless it is to talk in absolutes here? Like I said, the only worthwhile point is to reach a interpretation or theory that fits best with the story. And that's pretty much it. And of course, hardly anyone will agree in what that theory or theories are or should be since what fits bets also depends on opinion.

That is why I don't really bash on anyone's theories and interpretations (unless they really don't make sense).

Uh... he was using magic. He wasn't up there pinning Gohan's arms with his own.

And we already saw with Chiaotzu and Goku that you can use Psychokinesis on people stronger than you, so there's no point acting like it's Kaioshin's strength.

As said, there isn't a plot hole.

[rereboy]

No, it's a fallacy to assume that E. Kaioshin restraining SS2 Gohan proves anything. It's only because of his magic that he could immobilize him.

Stop right there. Nowhere does it state that the reason he was able to do it was because of magic and not strength. So, by stating that was due to his magic you are already using a personal interpretation not based on anything concrete (since there literally is nothing suggesting that it was purely due to magic and not strength) to justify something that isn't really explained in the manga.

You are already explaining the plothole with a personal interpretation while stating that there is no plothole.

And without the sort of explanation you just used it just seems weird or incoherent. Its only makes sense when we try to explain it with a explanation of our own like: "It was only due to his magic not his strength, otherwise he wouldn't be able to" "Oh, that makes sense!".

And your interpretation (or anyone's else) is not, without a doubt, the truth. The situation allows multiple and possible interpretations which try to explain the plothole.

In short, there's a lot of possible interpretations for it, but to say its not a plothole... I don't think its right. Its precisely because it is a plothole that it allows for that multiple interpretations trying to justify it. To say otherwise, basically means that we are already believing that our interpretation is the only explanation, the only possible truth. And that is wrong (at least regarding this example).

So, do you see how pointless it is to talk in absolutes here? Like I said, the only worthwhile point is to reach a interpretation or theory that fits best with the story. And that's pretty much it. And of course, hardly anyone will agree in what that theory or theories are or should be since what fits bets also depends on opinion.

That is why I don't really bash on anyone's theories and interpretations (unless they really don't make sense).

Uh... he was using magic. He wasn't up there pinning Gohan's arms with his own.

And we already saw with Chiaotzu and Goku that you can use Psychokinesis on people stronger than you, so there's no point acting like it's Kaioshin's strength.

As said, there isn't a plot hole.

If that power or ability isn't dependent on strength, then why didn't Kaioshin use it on Buu? Wouldn't it work? By the way, wouldn't Chaotzu be able to immobilize SSJ2 Gohan as well then? If it does have a relation with strength, just how strong does the opponent have to be to resist it? Is it Ki related, maybe its some form of Kiai? Or is it truly magic, like babididi uses? Or is it a mental ability like telekinesis? If it can be resisted, can it be resisted with ki power alone, or is it necessary primarily mental power? Or does it require magic? Would Kaioshin be able to immobilize Gohan for long or did it only work because Gohan was caught off guard and was only on effect for a second or two? Etc.

Sure, there isn't a plothole... when you add your personal interpretation to all those events to explain them properly. Without it, those questions, and many others regarding South Kaioshin and the sword pop up.

As I've quoted, a plothole also exist when there is a blatant omission of relevant information. And if people feel that its necessary to come up with very different ways of explaining certains things in the manga, since your interpretation is not the only one that exists and makes sense, then there is a blatant omission of relevant information to explain it.

Just ask yourself, why are there so many theories and interpretations regarding Dragon Ball, especially in the Buu saga, including regarding the Z sword and Soth Kaioshin? Is is because there is no plothole and you are the only one smart enough to read the manga and see the truth written there? Or is it because there is a blatant omission of relevant information to explain certain things in the manga and people automatically come up with interpretations to make sense of it, which themselves vary greatly since the lack of information allows for very different interpretations? I think that the answer to these questions can only be one.

Some authors actually want people to come up with their own conclusions, generally in more adult works. They leave things to the reader's interpretation. These are deliberate plotholes, a tool used by many authors which requires precise handling so that is used only on things that don't really require an detailed explanation and, on the contrary, the plot and story benefit from leaving those elements unexplained or left mysterious. This isn't the case with Dragon Ball, however, since the story doesn't benefit from these plotholes at all. It pretty much just bothers the reader.

Anyway, I can't be more clear than this regarding the matter. Of all the things that allow different interpretations in the manga, I don't think that the very existence of these plotholes is something that rightfully allows for different interpretations.

[Saiga]

If that power or ability isn't dependent on strength, then why didn't Kaioshin use it on Buu? Wouldn't it work? By the way, wouldn't Chaotzu be able to immobilize SSJ2 Gohan as well then? If it does have a relation with strength, just how strong does the opponent have to be to resist it? Is it Ki related, maybe its some form of Kiai? Or is it truly magic, like babididi uses? Or is it a mental ability like telekinesis? If it can be resisted, can it be resisted with ki power alone, or is it necessary primarily mental power? Or does it require magic? Would Kaioshin be able to immobilize Gohan for long or did it only work because Gohan was caught off guard and was only on effect for a second or two? Etc.

Sure, there isn't a plothole... when you add your personal interpretation to all those events to explain them properly. Without it, those questions, and many others regarding South Kaioshin and the sword pop up.

As I've quoted, a plothole also exist when there is a blatant omission of relevant information. And if people feel that its necessary to come up with very different ways of explaining certains things in the manga, since your interpretation is not the only one that exists and makes sense, then there is a blatant omission of relevant information to explain it.

Just ask yourself, why are there so many theories and interpretations regarding Dragon Ball, especially in the Buu saga, including regarding the Z sword and Soth Kaioshin? Is is because there is no plothole and you are the only one smart enough to read the manga and see the truth written there? Or is it because there is a blatant omission of relevant information to explain certain things in the manga and people automatically come up with interpretations to make sense of it, which themselves vary greatly since the lack of information allows for very different interpretations? I think that the answer to these questions can only be one.

Some authors actually want people to come up with their own conclusions, generally in more adult works. They leave things to the reader's interpretation. These are deliberate plotholes, a tool used by many authors which requires precise handling so that is used only on things that don't really require an detailed explanation and, on the contrary, the plot and story benefit from leaving those elements unexplained or left mysterious. This isn't the case with Dragon Ball, however, since the story doesn't benefit from these plotholes at all. It pretty much just bothers the reader.

Anyway, I can't be more clear than this regarding the matter. Of all the things that allow different interpretations in the manga, I don't think that the very existence of these plotholes is something that rightfully allows for different interpretations.

Daizenshuu 7 states that Kaioshin's technique is what allowed him to hold Gohan, and (indirectly) says it is more powerful than Chiaotzu's. So it's the power of the technique that matters, and Majin Boo is far stronger than Gohan so the technique isn't powerful enough for him. You have yet to prove there is a plot hole... there is only one if you assume South Kaioshin was stronger than Gohan, which is never implied in the manga.

There is a difference between unexplained events and a contradiction of the plot. There are a lot of theories about things that weren't explicitly laid out but that doesn't mean every one of them is a plot hole. The fact is there is nothing in the manga suggesting that Kaioshin is stronger than Gohan and should be able to pull the Z Sword out.