Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

[rereboy]

If that power or ability isn't dependent on strength, then why didn't Kaioshin use it on Buu? Wouldn't it work? By the way, wouldn't Chaotzu be able to immobilize SSJ2 Gohan as well then? If it does have a relation with strength, just how strong does the opponent have to be to resist it? Is it Ki related, maybe its some form of Kiai? Or is it truly magic, like babididi uses? Or is it a mental ability like telekinesis? If it can be resisted, can it be resisted with ki power alone, or is it necessary primarily mental power? Or does it require magic? Would Kaioshin be able to immobilize Gohan for long or did it only work because Gohan was caught off guard and was only on effect for a second or two? Etc.

Sure, there isn't a plothole... when you add your personal interpretation to all those events to explain them properly. Without it, those questions, and many others regarding South Kaioshin and the sword pop up.

As I've quoted, a plothole also exist when there is a blatant omission of relevant information. And if people feel that its necessary to come up with very different ways of explaining certains things in the manga, since your interpretation is not the only one that exists and makes sense, then there is a blatant omission of relevant information to explain it.

Just ask yourself, why are there so many theories and interpretations regarding Dragon Ball, especially in the Buu saga, including regarding the Z sword and Soth Kaioshin? Is is because there is no plothole and you are the only one smart enough to read the manga and see the truth written there? Or is it because there is a blatant omission of relevant information to explain certain things in the manga and people automatically come up with interpretations to make sense of it, which themselves vary greatly since the lack of information allows for very different interpretations? I think that the answer to these questions can only be one.

Some authors actually want people to come up with their own conclusions, generally in more adult works. They leave things to the reader's interpretation. These are deliberate plotholes, a tool used by many authors which requires precise handling so that is used only on things that don't really require an detailed explanation and, on the contrary, the plot and story benefit from leaving those elements unexplained or left mysterious. This isn't the case with Dragon Ball, however, since the story doesn't benefit from these plotholes at all. It pretty much just bothers the reader.

Anyway, I can't be more clear than this regarding the matter. Of all the things that allow different interpretations in the manga, I don't think that the very existence of these plotholes is something that rightfully allows for different interpretations.

Daizenshuu 7 states that Kaioshin's technique is what allowed him to hold Gohan, and (indirectly) says it is more powerful than Chiaotzu's. So it's the power of the technique that matters, and Majin Boo is far stronger than Gohan so the technique isn't powerful enough for him. You have yet to prove there is a plot hole... there is only one if you assume South Kaioshin was stronger than Gohan, which is never implied in the manga.

There is a difference between unexplained events and a contradiction of the plot. There are a lot of theories about things that weren't explicitly laid out but that doesn't mean every one of them is a plot hole. The fact is there is nothing in the manga suggesting that Kaioshin is stronger than Gohan and should be able to pull the Z Sword out.

You had to resort to what a Guide for the series says to actually try to explain the situation in detail without using a personal interpretation like you were using before, and yet you still claim that there is no plothole within the manga... Doesn't that tell you something?

Anyway, if you had read my post carefully, you have noticed that I've already stated that many authors deliberately leave things unexplained, in what we might call deliberate plotholes.
Like I said, this is a tool that has to be carefully used since the things that are left unexplained should contribute positively to the story. The story should actually benefit from leaving that aspect unexplained and mysterious and the average reader should feel that its not necessary to explain those things in the story at all.
So, in short, there is nothing wrong with these type of plotholes since, when they are correctly used, they even make the story better.

Such is not the case in Dragon Ball. Someone who reads the Buu saga and actually thinks about the story will almost certainly wonder how could there be such an apparent insignificant difference in power between the weakest Kaioshin and the strongest since the weakest was able to hold SSJ2 Gohan immobilized for a few seconds and is stated to be much stronger than Piccolo (who, in the previous saga, was not that far from the power of the saiyans in their SSJ1) while the strongest was not able to remove a sword that Gohan, without visibly becoming a SSJ2, was able to remove, but, on the other hand, Kid Buu chose to absorb him (South Kaioshin), and no other Kaioshin besides him and Dai Kaioshin, when Buu had only been shown at that point to choose to absorb someone out of necessity, and the form that Buu took after absorbing him, is implied to be stronger than Super Buu, which all seems to imply that there was a very important difference in power between him and the weakest Kaioshin.

A reader paying attention to the story will be left scratching his head at all this before coming up with a way of interpreting it that makes sense to him. And that is what constitutes a blatant lack of relevant information who actually bothers the reader and makes him feel and wish that this was better explained in the manga, and, without any further explanations in the manga, the reader is forced to come up with his personal way of interpreting it that actively tries to make sense of it.

I love Dragon Ball and its author but I won't pretend to be blind to its flaws and plotholes. I don't love it any less for it.

[Saimaroimaru]

Maybe South Kai has some tech to save the South and Dai Kaoshin's in Buu.

[Saiga]

You had to resort to what a Guide for the series says to actually try to explain the situation in detail without using a personal interpretation like you were using before, and yet you still claim that there is no plothole within the manga... Doesn't that tell you something?

No. I shouldn't have needed the guide, because Gohan is obviously stronger than Kaioshin. But you seemed to be under the impression that Kaioshin had to have strength on par with Gohan to paralyse him.

Anyway, if you had read my post carefully, you have noticed that I've already stated that many authors deliberately leave things unexplained, in what we might call deliberate plotholes.

Unexplained events =/= plot holes. But I guess we'll just to agree to disagree on this.

Like I said, this is a tool that has to be carefully used since the things that are left unexplained should contribute positively to the story. The story should actually benefit from leaving that aspect unexplained and mysterious and the average reader should feel that its not necessary to explain those things in the story at all.
Such is not the case in Dragon Ball. Someone who reads the Buu saga and actually thinks about the story will almost certainly wonder how could there be just an apparent small difference in power between the weakest Kaioshin and the strongest since the weakest was able to hold SSJ2 Gohan immobilized for a few seconds and is stated to be much stronger than Piccolo (who, in the previous saga, was not that far from the power of the saiyans in their SSJ1) but the strongest was not able to remove a sword that Gohan, without visibly becoming a SSJ2, was able to remove, especially since Kid Buu chose to absorb him (South Kaioshin), and no other Kaioshin besides him and Dai Kaioshin, when Buu had only been shown at that point to choose to absorb someone out of necessity, and the form that Buu took after absorbing him, is implied to be stronger than Super Buu.

We don't know how Piccolo stacked up to the post RoSaT Super Saiyans, but we know everyone was lower than Super Saiyan Goku (enough to be amazed by him at the Cell Games) who in turn was lower than Super Saiyan Gohan (who should be a fair deal stronger than Goku given the surprise everybody gets once he powers up). So there's plenty of room for both Kaioshin to fit in, even counting in Gohan's lack of training over the time skip. Boo's absorption is never elaborated on in detail, and it's treated in story as something he doesn't only use out of desperation (via Elder Kaioshin's comments towards Kibitoshin). There's also the obvious fact that if South Kaioshin is the strongest, Kaioshin+Boo wouldn't be outclassed by Dai Kaioshin.

A reader paying attention to the story will be left scratching his head at all this before coming up with a way of interpreting it that makes sense to him. And that is what constitutes a blatant lack of relevant information who actually bothers the reader and makes him feel and wish that this was better explained in the manga, and, without any further explanations in the manga, he is forced to come up with his personal way of interpreting it that actively tries to make sense of it.

The confusion only comes from a reader making their own assumptions rather than simply accepting what is.

I love Dragon Ball and its author but I won't pretend to be blind to its flaws and plotholes. I don't love it any less for it.

Neither will I. We just disagree on what a plothole is.

[rereboy]

Maybe South Kai has some tech to save the South and Dai Kaoshin's in Buu.

Would they still be there after so long or were they completely absorbed into Buu's organism? Its definitely possible, however.

[Saimaroimaru]

Maybe South Kai has some tech to save the South and Dai Kaoshin's in Buu.

Would they still be there after so long or were they completely absorbed into Buu's organism? Its definitely possible, however.

I am interested in the return of Kid Buu. Would love to see how Babidi reacts to him now that he would be an even more uncontrollable mass of psychotic bubblegum if it does happen.

[rereboy]

No. I shouldn't have needed the guide, because Gohan is obviously stronger than Kaioshin. But you seemed to be under the impression that Kaioshin had to have strength on par with Gohan to paralyse him.

I never stated that Gohan isn't stronger than Kaioshin is. That much is obvious. He is even weaker than Gohan in his SSJ1. The point is that if he is able to paralyze him in his SSJ2, the manga seems to imply that he is not THAT much weaker than Gohan in his SSJ1 since he was able to paralyze Gohan but not Buu, and especially since he was even stated to be much stronger than Piccolo, who wasn't that much weaker than the Saiyans (Trunks and Vegeta) in his SSJ1 in the Cell saga (and Gohan is even weaker than he was on the Cell saga).

Without using your personal interpretation, you needed the guide to justify just how it worked, to confirm that it had to do with strength after all and was not totally independent from it and to see if it said just how strong someone has to be compared to Kaioshin to resist it, and to see if it talked about Buu to confirm that what Kaioshin did to Buu was the same sort of thing that he did to Gohan (when Kaioshin faced Buu).
All of these things were poorly explained in the manga even though that's hardly the worst of it (if all that was left poorly explained was that, then I would agree with you that there were no really relevant plotholes).

We don't know how Piccolo stacked up to the post RoSaT Super Saiyans, but we know everyone was lower than Super Saiyan Goku (enough to be amazed by him at the Cell Games) who in turn was lower than Super Saiyan Gohan (who should be a fair deal stronger than Goku given the surprise everybody gets once he powers up). So there's plenty of room for both Kaioshin to fit in, even counting in Gohan's lack of training over the time skip. Boo's absorption is never elaborated on in detail, and it's treated in story as something he doesn't only use out of desperation (via Elder Kaioshin's comments towards Kibitoshin). There's also the obvious fact that if South Kaioshin is the strongest, Kaioshin+Boo wouldn't be outclassed by Dai Kaioshin.

We know that Piccolo managed to fend off his Cell Jr with pretty much the same success as SSJ Trunks and SSJ Vegeta, so its safe to assume that his power was comparable to their own, even if somewhat weaker (those three were the only ones who managed to keep standing while fighting the Cell Jrs and Piccolo didn't seem any more hurt than Trunks or Vegeta).

Of course, Gohan was more formidable than they were at that time, even with his SSJ1, but he is stated to be weaker at the Buu saga than he was at the Cell saga, and Piccolo is not the type to get any weaker, even if he didn't become significantly stronger in those 7 years.

Enter Kaioshin, who is stated to be much stronger than Piccolo. SSJ1 Gohan is still certainly stronger than Kaioshin, but given the fact that he was much stronger than Piccolo, who was at least comparable to SSJ Trunks and SSJ Vegeta at the Cell saga, that Gohan was weaker than he was at the Cell saga, and that Kaioshin was able to hold SSJ2 Gohan for a moment or two, it doesn't make sense for him to be THAT much weaker than SSJ1 Gohan at that point.

This would all be fine if only Gohan had at least removed the sword with his SSJ2 power. But this is unknown since he wasn't visibly a SSJ2 at the time at all, he seemed to be at SSJ1, to which East Kaioshin, the weakest Kaioshin, apparently wasn't that much inferior to.

Also, like I've already stated, what was shown to make Buu absorb people was necessity, not his acknowledgment of the opponent's strength. Its perfectly possible that Dai Kaioshin, being the highest God, was resourceful enough to cause trouble to Buff Buu with his abilities, and not purely with his strength.

The confusion only comes from a reader making their own assumptions rather than simply accepting what is.

So what am I supposed to accept?

That Gohan was SSJ1 when he pulled the sword? But Kaioshin stated that Gohan was stronger than he thought after seeing him fight Dabura and Buu apparently with only his SSJ1, even though he saw him transform to SSJ2 before; so does it make sense for Gohan to be SSJ1 when he fought Dabura and Buu and when he pulled the sword, even though he did look like a SSJ1?

That Gohan was SSJ2 when he pulled the sword? But he didn't look like a SSJ2, there were no sparks at all, no visible sign, and even when he should have been a SSJ2 while he was fighting Buu (since Kaioshin was surprised by his power), Goku and Vegeta was portrayed very clearly as SSJ2 at the same time. It looks that he was supposed to look like a SSJ1, implying that he truly was a SSJ1 at the time

That the difference in power between South Kaioshin and East Kaioshin is not very significant? But then why would Buu choose to absorb him? Why would Buff Buu be implied to be that strong?

That the difference in power between South Kaioshin and East Kaioshin is very significant? But then why wasn't he able to pull the sword that Gohan, apparently in his SSJ1 was able to pull out, especially since the weakest Kaioshin wasn't that much weaker than SSJ1 Gohan?

You are telling me that all these situations I stated are personal assumptions of mine? That they don't exist in the manga? On the contrary, they cease to be a problem only when we assume something to be true and choose a side, interpreting it to make sense out of it.

Neither will I. We just disagree on what a plothole is.

We disagree in much more than that. You disagree with me that the situations that I've stated even exist in the manga and are only assumptions. And, as such, don't cause any trouble to any reader, and can't constitute a plothole, being perfectly logical and clear within the manga, making all the fans that waste some time trying to make sense of it with their interpretations some sort of fools for not understanding something so obvious, clear and logical, and for not (almost all of them) agreeing with each other in what these situations mean.

Anyway, I'm already tired of this offtopic. I've already explained my position extensively and clearly. I'll leave it to that.

[rereboy]

Maybe South Kai has some tech to save the South and Dai Kaoshin's in Buu.

Would they still be there after so long or were they completely absorbed into Buu's organism? Its definitely possible, however.

I am interested in the return of Kid Buu. Would love to see how Babidi reacts to him now that he would be an even more uncontrollable mass of psychotic bubblegum if it does happen.

I've thought of it but I can't see Kid Buu sitting quietly in the corner. He would try to make a mess and the Vargas would have no choice other than sending him back to his universe, which would be the end of it. And even if they couldn't send him back for some reason, Kid Buu, despite being problematic, wouldn't really be a challenge for Vegetto, Gast or even Mystic Gohan, which would intervene to stop him.

[dprez]

[Hellspawn28]

I think Buu will win but I think South Kaioshin is just warming up. I wonder who will win in the next round, Ubb or Nail? I guess Ubb should since I don't think Nail is any stronger then we saw him against his fight with Freeza in the Freeza saga.

[rereboy]

Nail has already given up even though we won against Reacum. He knew he wouldn't get far in the tournament.

[ChahikoDBZ]

I'm hoping for a win from the Kaioshin. Hey look that rhymed. I'm so lame. But I am hoping for South Kaioshin to win even though it's likely Majin Boo will win.

[Gyt Kaliba]

Nail has already given up even though we won against Reacum. He knew he wouldn't get far in the tournament.

I've been wondering how they're gonna handle that too. I mean, if they'll have Uub get an automatic win in his match - like some people did in round one - or if he'll have to fight the next person off of the list of winners. I'm guessing the former, but the latter could prove interesting as well.

[Saiga]

@Rereboy You're making assumptions about Piccolo for one, as he was NEVER shown being anywhere near close to Vegeta and Trunks. The only thing we see of his "fight" against the Cell Jr is him down on the ground while Vegeta and Trunks are still standing (when Gohan turns SS2), and Cell only says that Vegeta and Trunks can hold their own. So their being a small gap is an assumption. You assume that for Boo to absorb someone there strength has to be noteworthy, which isn't the case as stated by Elder Kaioshin, you assume that the gap between E. Kaioshin and SS1 Gohan isn't very big, you assume a notable gap between South and East should put South above Gohan... etc. You make many assumptions.

But I'm done as well.

[Michsi]

Ah, this age old debate I haven't been in any power debates for a while, but there are those ones that still call out to me

@Rereboy You're making assumptions about Piccolo for one, as he was NEVER shown being anywhere near close to Vegeta and Trunks. The only thing we see of his "fight" against the Cell Jr is him down on the ground while Vegeta and Trunks are still standing (when Gohan turns SS2), and Cell only says that Vegeta and Trunks can hold their own.

Piccolo was never on the ground in that fight, especially not when Gohan turned into SSJ2. The fact that makes people believe that the gap between him and Vegeta and Trunks is small is because he is the only other fighter that was up and fighting when Gohan transformed. Also the "ya" in Cell's statement, so on and so forth.
If this was based on the anime, my apologies, I didn't pay attention.

Moving on.

I really can' t tell at this point who will the fight , though I'm kinda thinking Buu myself. Also,good page.

[dprez]

South Kaioshin has something up his sleeve. Maybe he knows about the gullible nature of this boo, or that he needs to completely obliterate every cell of his being.

[Saiga]

Piccolo was never on the ground in that fight, especially not when Gohan turned into SSJ2. The fact that makes people believe that the gap between him and Vegeta and Trunks is small is because he is the only other fighter that was up and fighting when Gohan transformed. Also the "ya" in Cell's statement, so on and so forth.
If this was based on the anime, my apologies, I didn't pay attention.

I don't watch the anime, it's the manga. I'm looking at the scene now and it sure looks like Piccolo's on the ground. Apart from that we don't see him do anything with the Cell Juniors. There's nothing even showing him being close to Trunks or Vegeta - the "ya" doesn't mean crap, because if Piccolo was the only other one fighting evenly it would have been a lot simpler to just say Piccolo, Trunks and Vegeta.

Either way, saying that he's close to them is an assumption.

[Michsi]

I looked at the fight again and I see no such thing. Could you give the panel/page? And there is also the chapter cover page where he is again shown to be the only other one standing next to Trunks and Vegeta. And the ya means more than you think, it has specific role in a sentence and in the japanese language wether people like it or not. Based on these things, you could say that stating that the gap between then is big is also an assumption.

[dprez]

I think it's safe to say the after his two trips through the ROSAT, Piccolo surpassed Super Vegeta's power that he used against suppressed Cell.

His goal should have been at least this much, or he would of been no help whatsoever. Goku stating that he is still no match for Cell still makes sense if he reached this level of power.

[Saiga]

I looked at the fight again and I see no such thing. Could you give the panel/page? And there is also the chapter cover page where he is again shown to be the only other one standing next to Trunks and Vegeta. And the ya means more than you think, it has specific role in a sentence and in the japanese language wether people like it or not. Based on these things, you could say that stating that the gap between then is big is also an assumption.

It's the page immediately before the frontal shot of SS2 Gohan, showing Gohan from behind and everybodies' reactions. Panel 4 is a small panel of Piccolo. Looking at it now I think he's on the ground but I can't tell very well due to the small size and lack of perspective. Even taking into consideration the chapter cover, him standing doesn't make him equal to Vegeta or Trunks or even close to it. I know what ya means, because there was a topic on it that went into great detail over it, but it hasn't convinced me at all as I don't see any logical reason for Cell (or AT for that matter) to use "Vegeta ya Trunks" over "Vegeta, Trunks & Piccolo" if Piccolo was intended to be included. Just because "ya" was used doesn't mean someone other than Vegeta & Trunks had to be included either. And yes, I agree that it would be an assumption to say there is a big gap as well. I wasn't trying to say that there is definitely a big gap between them.

@Dprez Even if he did, Goku's 50% power amazed everyone and is therefore likely to be higher than "Super Vegeta" before the second RoSaT trip.

[Michsi]

Huh? How is that on the ground? This is the only time I have ever seen anybody see that panel that way. He is clearly standing and what we have there is perspective from down up. There is no indication whatsoever that what he has behind him is grownd especially since Toriyama always makes it obvious, see Goku's panel right below. And the ya thing serves a purpose in that sentence and basic math should make hings clear. It wasn 't exclusiv to them and there is only one other contestant.