How powerful are 23rd Budokai Characters?

[PiscesCaballero]

Now something on the internet have been bugging me.

I keep seeing claims in various threads-specifically within the VS Community.That the main cast of Dragon Ball and not just Goku and Piccollo-we're including low tiers such as Krillian and Yamcha-not only are all claimed to be as "citybusters" and that they can go in speed exceeding Mach 15.But within the VS Communities on the web such as Animevice and MVC, they literally believe that all of the main cast Dragon Ball characters that participated in the tournament, not only do they literally believe this, they go as far as claiming low tiers 23rd Budokai main DB cast can solo the HST (HST refers to the three current mega-hit Shonens Bleach,Naruto,and One Piece)!!!!!!!!

23rd Budokai Goku and Piccolo Jr. soloing the HST?I definitely agree thats believable. Afterall King Piccolo(who destroyed a city like nothing and was at least above Mach 15) is considerably weaker than Piccolo Jr. and Goku as a kid beaten King Piccolo and would have been considerably stronger by this time. In addition Goku beaten Piccolo Jr. after the best fight in Dragon Ball Part 1.

But Krillian,Yamcha,Tien Shenon,and Chaotizu? I don't buy this BS powerscaling at all. Not only had they neither shown any feats comparible to King Piccolo's abilities prior to 23rd Budokai nor during the Tournament, but they were beaten rather easily by the two finalists (Piccolo Jr. and Goku). At best I would say they would be able to take on upper tiers(not familiar with the HST outside of the VS Communities Battle Threads and dubious calculations) but even that is a longshot. I mean even the VS Community is doubting Piccolo's ability to solo the HST but I can't believe they literally believe low tier 23rd Budokai characters(who haven't shown comparible feats to King Piccolo) can solo HST!!!!

How powerful would are the 23rd Bodukai Characters? Do they match the BS Calculations and powerscaling the various VS Communities give them?Or is this sheer baloney (except for Goku and Piccolo Jr.)?

I would appreciate official stats from databooks, not fanmade calculations (which are often hearsay powerscaling and wankery).

[VegettoEX]

I dunno -- you seem to want official numbers from guide books, but it's not like there are any guide books that specifically compare Dragon Ball characters to other popular characters from other series (that I know of, anyway!). In that regard, you're totally on your own.

But would ki and energy exertion in Dragon Ball perfectly correlate to how it's done/performed/honed/portrayed in, say, Naruto...? I dunno. I'm sure there's some crossover, but they're two different worlds with two different authors with two different styles. Even with Kishimoto being a huge Toriyama fan, he's got his own spin on things that would probably make it impossible to reconcile any type of "official" or "confirmed" answer. I'm sure if you asked him, Kishimoto would probably kowtow to Toriyama and suggest that the Z-Warriors would always triumph!

Unfortunately, at the end of the day, you're probably going to left with random fan speculation about how these theoretical fights would go down. You'd have to do the same thing you're already doing -- things like, "Well Piccolo destroyed this building, but seemed exhausted after it..." versus "Well Sasuke didn't do much damage against a tree, but then after he got bitten by Orochimaru he was able to blah blah blah..." and so on and so forth.

[dprez]

Years ago on another forum, I posted a thread a lot like this one, wondering how strong certain other shonen characters were in comparison to Dragon Ball characters, for like you I was also surprised to learn that 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai Goku is capable of soloing the entire One Piece-verse.

It did surprise me to learn how week characters from other shonen series like Bleach or One Piece were compared to even the low-tiers of early Dragon Ball, but when you compare feats of strength, it makes sense.

[Hitiro]

In consideration to "citybusters" it purely depends on the efficiency of the technique a character is pulling off. For example, Piccolo was much weaker than Raditz but the Makankosappo he pulled off could kill him because it used his ki more efficiently. Another example would be Vegeta and his Final Flash against Cell, while Vegeta was much weaker than Cell he still produced a technique which could destroy him. I would say that Yamcha and Krillin aren't the best ki manipulators in dragonball so to call Yamcha and Krillin "citybusters" is probably an exaggeration considering they couldn't manipulate their ki past a decent Kamehameha. However, Goku and Roshi could probably do it because they can do the technique much better, and are naturally better at ki manipulation, we know Roshi could destroy a mountain and he also destroyed the moon. If Roshi attempted to destroy it with a ki blast(if he could pull one off) then it wouldn't have the same destructive force as a Kamehameha. According to Daizenshuu 7 I don't believe Goku got much stronger before Raditz came to earth so if he didn't and he ran Snake way in 180-ish days, give or take a few depending on what time of the year Goku ran Snake Way, which was 1 million kilometres he was actually not even moving at mach 1 as for him to take 180 days he'd have to be moving at 143.84 mph.

[Bussani]

Well, if you want official numbers, we can at least post what's available. But it's not much.

The Battle with Piccolo Daimao
Goku: 260 [D7-p.82; WJ]
Piccolo Daimao: 260 [D7-p.82; WJ]
Kame-sennin: 180 [WJ]

The 23rd Tenkaichi Budoukai
Goku (Super Kamehameha?): 910 [WJ]
Cyborg Tao Pai Pai: 210 [WJ]
Chi Chi: 130 [WJ]

"WJ" means the numbers are from Weekly Jump, and "D7" means they're from Daizenshuu 7. As you can see, only two of the above were used in one of the guides. I'm sure there are people who question whether the Weekly Jump numbers should be considered, but I guess the fact that a lot of them were reprinted in the Daizenshuu gives them some credibility.

But this is about characters like Tenshinhan, Kuririn, etc., so what do we have on them?

The 22nd Tenkaichi Budoukai
Goku: 180 [D7-p.82; WJ]
Tenshinhan: 180 [D7-p.82]
Kame-sennin (Jackie Chun): 139 [D7-p.82]
Tsuru-sennin: 120 [D7-p.82; WJ]

After the Battle with Raditz
Kame-sennin: 139 [M-18]
Kuririn: 206 [M-18]
Tenshinhan: 250 [M-18]
Yamcha: 177 [M-18]
Piccolo (wearing heavy clothing): 329 [M-18]
Tenshinhan, Kuririn, Yamcha, and Chaozu (combined): less than 1,507 [A-17]
Kaio: 3,500 [WJ]

Not much, in all honesty. We can see that Tenshinhan went from 180 in the 22nd world tournament to 250 about about eight years later. That would actually still make him weaker than the number they've given Piccolo Daimao! However, the Earthlings can change their battle power when they fight, and the 250 reading was taken by Bulma when no fighting was going on, so that's definitely debatable. It's easy to see why "powerscaling and wankery" appears, huh?

All of the data above can be found in Kanzentai's Battle Power Guide. It's mostly all we have to go on if we're talking official stats. One of the Super Exciting Guides has a map of Goku's training and progress over the course of the story, but there's absolutely nothing to compare it to, so that's probably no good. There's also the Growing Up section of Daizenshuu 2, but I don't think you'll find anything useful in there, either.

By the way, how do you figure Piccolo Daimao must have been able to move at Mach 15 or more? I don't think there's anything suggesting that, official or otherwise.

It did surprise me to learn how week characters from other shonen series like Bleach or One Piece were compared to even the low-tiers of early Dragon Ball, but when you compare feats of strength, it makes sense.

That's probably also debatable. It's surprising, but the forty tons Goku has trouble lifting towards the end of the manga is the heaviest anyone in the story (outside of filler, at least) is shown to be able to lift. Even under three hundred times Earth's gravity, Goku himself would only weigh around twenty tons. One Piece's Zoro, on the other hand, could lift a house over his head pretty early on.



That probably weighs a good deal more than forty tons. Of course, it probably comes down to what numbers or feats an author thinks sound or look impressive, which sort of ties into what Mike said about different authors having different styles.

[Hitiro]

That's probably also debatable. It's surprising, but the forty tons Goku has trouble lifting towards the end of the manga is the heaviest anyone in the story (outside of filler, at least) is shown to be able to lift. Even under three hundred times Earth's gravity, Goku himself would only weigh around twenty tons. One Piece's Zoro, on the other hand, could lift a house over his head pretty early on.

That probably weighs a good deal more than forty tons. Of course, it probably comes down to what numbers or feats an author thinks sound or look impressive, which sort of ties into what Mike said about different authors having different styles.

To be fair it wasn't ever mentioned whether Goku was on a planet which had more gravity than Earth's when he was training with the 40 tons.

[Bussani]

He was on Heaven (which is weird to say--"on Heaven"), so it would depend on how much gravity you think Heaven would have. Still, while tons are technically a measurement of mass, I doubt Toriyama was trying to make it that confusing. Weight (as opposed to mass) is specifically used in Mr. Simmons' translation, and forty tons of weight would be forty tons of weight, regardless of gravity. So I guess it depends on how you want to look at it.

Regardless, that house Zoro is lifting probably weighs more than Goku would under six hundred times Earth's gravity. I wouldn't exactly call that weak. But hey, this is just more "powerscaling", isn't it?

[Olympian]

I would say that Yamcha and Krillin aren't the best ki manipulators in dragonball so to call Yamcha and Krillin "citybusters" is probably an exaggeration considering they couldn't manipulate their ki past a decent Kamehameha.

Í wouldn`t call them literally citybusters either, but I think they were supposed to come across as good Ki manupulators. The humans, sans Goku, were always mong the first to show unusual Ki attacks.

The Sokidan doesn`t have, or didn`t have, the raw scale of a Kamekahema but looked faster and was more accurate, not to mention it was tactically harder to deal with since it followed you around until it hit you.