Ocean Studios' "Dragon Ball Kai" Dub Turns 16; Still Unreleased

[elcrunkus]

doesn't ocean dub basically all of their dubs before releasing them? I was thinking they've done that for awhile now.

[Pokewhiz7]

At least Kikuchi is the official Japanese replacement music.

[RazorX]

They released Z in episode batches, once a batch of episodes was finished, it would be released for broadcast, the next batch of episodes would be dubbed while the previous batch was being broadcast on TV.

I would want the same for Ocean dub Kai. By having breaks between episode batches, it makes the audience have suspense and await the new episodes with with active interest.

At least Kikuchi is the official Japanese replacement music.

If Toei stuck One Piece's music in Kai, it would be an "official" replacement, doesn't mean it would be right or appropriate. The replacement music is very limited and rushed, it's not good enough and it shouldn't be used. It being replaced by Toei has little bearing.

[penguintruth]

It's Toei's place to change the music if they want. They made the show. Ocean didn't.

If Ocean wants to make their own cartoon they should open up an animation studio. Otherwise, leave well enough alone.

[Hades]

You've said that, but haven't elaborated on why.

The point that gets conveniently ignored by some is that the music has already been replaced. That replacement music is not good enough, so another replacement music is needed for this much anticipated dub.

But that's not for a licensor to decide. When the Yamamoto score was deemed unsafe, it was Toei's call to remove the soundtrack, and the other dubbing companies followed suit around the world. Even with how that was handled, Ocean would not be a Fit and Proper licence holder if they disobeyed any ruling on how music was handled.

[dbboxkaifan]

If Ocean's dub for Kai does this, it will be a huge blow to my interest in it.

And Kikuchi's score in Dragon Ball Kai isn't a damn huge blow already as it is?

Ocean Kai + Faulconer Productions would just be perfect, or some other composer than the replacement music by Kikuchi. SK's music is only horrible in Kai because it was badly misused and way too repetitive.

SK composed for other franchises than just Dragon Ball so I'm guessing (some) must be in stereo not just DB-related.

[penguintruth]

If Ocean's dub for Kai does this, it will be a huge blow to my interest in it.

And Kikuchi's score in Dragon Ball Kai isn't a damn huge blow already as it is?

Ocean Kai + Faulconer Productions would just be perfect, or some other composer than the replacement music by Kikuchi. SK's music is only horrible in Kai because it was badly misused and way too repetitive.

SK composed for other franchises than just Dragon Ball so I'm guessing (some) must be in stereo not just DB-related.

No, because first, Toei is the one who decided to replace that music, and they're the ones who made the show, so I have no problem. It's their show, not Ocean's.

Second, on a personal level, the Kikuchi music is excellent and its placement problems in Kai has been massively exaggerated.

[Pokewhiz7]

Faulconer? In Kai? Oh God no. Despite my previous post in this thread, I've been open to the idea of a replacement score, as long as it's actually good. Faulconer...no.

[dbboxkaifan]

Second, on a personal level, the Kikuchi music is excellent and its placement problems in Kai has been massively exaggerated.

It's no exaggeration, the Kikuchi pieces are far too limited and repetitive on the entire series, unless you're a fan of the BGMs used it will bug you a lot.

Just take this for example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AgIaySnUTlg Frieza's arc with Cell's music (The first BGM is from Boo's arc, tho, rest from Cell)

I've heard the same damn tracks way too much on every episode to actually hate them.

This is basically happened to me: http://imageshack.us/clip/my-videos/546/53b.mp4/

Kikuchi's music isn't shit but I just don't enjoy any more Kai with the same 5-10 BGMs being overplayed every episode.

Faulconer? In Kai? Oh God no. Despite my previous post in this thread, I've been open to the idea of a replacement score, as long as it's actually good. Faulconer...no.

What's wrong with Faulconer Productions' music?

[TheBlackPaladin]

What's wrong with Faulconer Productions' music?

Nothing's "literally" wrong with it, the general consensus is just that it doesn't fit DBZ very well. Even if it did fit well, many people simply don't care for it because it's not the original music.

[dbboxkaifan]

Nothing's "literally" wrong with it, the general consensus is just that it doesn't fit DBZ very well. Even if it did fit well, many people simply don't care for it because it's not the original music.

Then again, Kikuchi's music in Kai isn't the original music neither and there's plenty of people always complaining rightfully about it being bad.

Vejita's Final Flash scene in Kai with Kikuchi music felt just like any other scene (generic) while with Yamamoto's (Theme: Victory Blow) it was completely awesome and new.

If the FP score was used internationally and not just in US then things would have been a lot different.

[JulieYBM]

You've said that, but haven't elaborated on why.

The point that gets conveniently ignored by some is that the music has already been replaced. That replacement music is not good enough, so another replacement music is needed for this much anticipated dub.

But that's not for a licensor to decide. When the Yamamoto score was deemed unsafe, it was Toei's call to remove the soundtrack, and the other dubbing companies followed suit around the world. Even with how that was handled, Ocean would not be a Fit and Proper licence holder if they disobeyed any ruling on how music was handled.

Licensors do allow the replacement of music. Just look at dubs of the past twenty years.

Of course, I find it funny that the consensus appears to be replacing music is a bigger sin than replacing the voice performances, another third of the product's audio.

[TheBlackPaladin]

Licensors do allow the replacement of music. Just look at dubs of the past twenty years.

Of course, I find it funny that the consensus appears to be replacing music is a bigger sin than replacing the voice performances, another third of the product's audio.

You're right, the original animation studios do allow the replacement of music. As much as we may not like replacement music, it's not as though FUNimation, or any dubbing company for that matter, was given complete free reign to do whatever they wanted with their series. Even 4Kids made all of those terrible edits--music replacements included--to "One Piece" with permission from Toei.

In any event, I think what bothers people about the music replacement is not so much the replacement of the music so much as it is the attitude behind the replacement. Fans are turned off by a dubbing company's thinking that they can make a show better than the original creators. It comes off as arrogant, like, "Who are you to make the call on what makes someone else's creation better?"

Having said all that, the idea behind a good dub is that a dub is at its best when it can replicate the experience of watching a show rather than reading it...but in another language. After all, when Japanese audiences watch anime, they're not reading any subtitles...they're just watching the show and experiencing it. That can't work for people who don't speak Japanese, so a dub is meant to replicate that kind of viewing method as closely as possible, but in another language. A good dub is a faithful emulation, more or less. For that reason, it's expected that dubbing companies need to change the voice performances for the purposes of a dub, and so people don't regard that as a sin. If you replace the music, though, the dub is no longer a good dub if you define a good dub as being a faithful emulation of the original material in another language...making it a much bigger sin.

[JulieYBM]

Licensors do allow the replacement of music. Just look at dubs of the past twenty years.

Of course, I find it funny that the consensus appears to be replacing music is a bigger sin than replacing the voice performances, another third of the product's audio.

In any event, I think what bothers people about the music replacement is not so much the replacement of the music so much as it is the attitude behind the replacement. Fans are turned off by a dubbing company's thinking that they can make a show better than the original creators. It comes off as arrogant, like, "Who are you to make the call on what makes someone else's creation better?"

That's entirely applicable to replacing the voice performances, though. I hate using the word because it's has such a dirty connotation, but it's a double standard (which is what I was trying to imply in my previous post without overtly doing so). The argument against the act ought not rely on personal feelings ("I like the original music/performance better!") but fact. All frames and all thirds of the audio are irreplaceable. To alter would be to make something different.

Of course, by that logic we really shouldn't hold the 'quality' of a dub to any sort of standard regarding faithfulness to the product it is based on.

[TheBlackPaladin]

Well, to be a bit more clear about what I was saying, I meant that the replacement of voice performances doesn't bother anyone because it's a dub. The replacement of the voices is expected when talking about a dub, otherwise it's not a dub. For something to be a dub, it necessitates that the voices be replaced...but it is not at all necessary to replace the music.

[Super Sayian Prime]

It's Toei's place to change the music if they want. They made the show. Ocean didn't.

If Ocean wants to make their own cartoon they should open up an animation studio. Otherwise, leave well enough alone.

It's also Toei's place to say if there can and cannot be music replacements. If Ocean Kai does have a replaced score Toei approved it, and since they're the people who made the show it's certainly in their place to agree to such.

[penguintruth]

It's a dub studio's responsibility to render an English version which falls closely in line with the Japanese version. That is, with an accurate script, and without altering sound effects or music.

Now, true, Toei may allow a company to change the music, but just because you're allowed to do something, doesn't mean you should.

If Ocean wants to add their own music, they should make their own cartoon, not turn an existing one into theirs. They didn't make the show. If they can't sell it as it is, they shouldn't take on the project at all.

[Fionordequester]

What if Toei believes that the replacement score is better in the same way that the creators of Samurai Pizza Cats believed that their show was made better in the U.S.?

[dbboxkaifan]

If Ocean wants to add their own music, they should make their own cartoon, not turn an existing one into theirs. They didn't make the show. If they can't sell it as it is, they shouldn't take on the project at all.

Toei Animation's the original owner of Dragon Ball but what gave them the right to insert old repetitive songs that didn't fit the series to begin with? Yeah they own DB..

Hiroshi Takaki's music of Ultimate Blast or the team behind the score of Budokai Tenkaichi 2 would have been far more suitable for Kai than Kikuchi's limited score.

If Ocean does get the opportunity to use their own soundtrack I really hope they do because the replacement soundtrack that Toei Animation added is annoying and too limited. Kikuchi's music worked for other DB series because it had variety and wasn't always using the same 5-10 pieces.

[penguintruth]

It's not a dub studio's place to "improve" the show. Look at what Funimation did to "improve" DBZ by changing large swaths of dialogue. Did that come off as "improved" to you?