The "Power" of a KI attack

[012yArthur0]

I was wondering, what makes the move stronger after all? I mean, if Goku charges X ki to a Kamehameha, is as strong as a Energy blast from one hand charged by ki? If so, why the characters always resort to the "signature moves"?

If It actually help the damage scale, what makes it get stronger, why, and how much?

[Rocketman]

I figure that it's easier to concentrate ki when you use a specific method of charging. Like, Goku could brute-force a simple ki blast have the power of his Kamehameha, but by following the motions of the Kamehameha, his ki flows into the attack more easily and quickly.

[Insertclevername]

I had the impression that techniques amplified the "power" of the blast, and shooting random Ki blast was essential just raw, unrefined power. The way they achieve this could be some kind of mental obstacle that we never witness on screen, but don't take this as fact, just a theory.

[Hitiro]

I had the impression that techniques amplified the "power" of the blast, and shooting random Ki blast was essential just raw, unrefined power. The way they achieve this could be some kind of mental obstacle that we never witness on screen, but don't take this as fact, just a theory.

^^^This, all throughout the series we see characters who, while not being as strong as their opponent, pull off a technique which can defeat them. We see instances of this as early as the Saiyan arc where Piccolo, with a powerlevel of 408, charges up a Makankosappo to a powerlevel of 1330. There is no denying that technique of a move is what makes it efficient with Ki, we even see characters like Tien hold off a monster like Cell with a Shin Kikoho when Cell is probably thousands of times stronger than him. Even Vegeta manages to hurt Cell with his Final Flash, if that Final Flash was as strong as Vegeta the Cell wouldn't have to worry. Probably why he decided to take it head on in the first place because he thought the attack couldn't be that much higher than Vegeta's powerlevel anyway. If the techniques didn't have an amplifying effect then you can ask yourself this, why develop a new technique if it isn't going to be more powerful than the last one? In instances like Makuhoidan(Hellzone Grenade) I would think that it would be beneficial if there was no power increase in the technique as that example is good as a strategy to leave your opponent with no place to go. But other than that and maybe Spirit Bomb which has no limits in terms of power then there would seriously be no point in having new techniques if they all output the same power when you put ki into them.

[012yArthur0]

I had the impression that techniques amplified the "power" of the blast, and shooting random Ki blast was essential just raw, unrefined power. The way they achieve this could be some kind of mental obstacle that we never witness on screen, but don't take this as fact, just a theory.

^^^This, all throughout the series we see characters who, while not being as strong as their opponent, pull off a technique which can defeat them. We see instances of this as early as the Saiyan arc where Piccolo, with a powerlevel of 408, charges up a Makankosappo to a powerlevel of 1330. There is no denying that technique of a move is what makes it efficient with Ki, we even see characters like Tenshinhan hold off a monster like Cell with a Shin Kikoho when Cell is probably thousands of times stronger than him. Even Vegeta manages to hurt Cell with his Final Flash, if that Final Flash was as strong as Vegeta the Cell wouldn't have to worry. Probably why he decided to take it head on in the first place because he thought the attack couldn't be that much higher than Vegeta's powerlevel anyway. If the techniques didn't have an amplifying effect then you can ask yourself this, why develop a new technique if it isn't going to be more powerful than the last one? In instances like Makuhoidan(Hellzone Grenade) I would think that it would be beneficial if there was no power increase in the technique as that example is good as a strategy to leave your opponent with no place to go. But other than that and maybe Spirit Bomb which has no limits in terms of power then there would seriously be no point in having new techniques if they all output the same power when you put ki into them.

But I believe Makankosappo is a special case. He tried not only to charge all his KI on it, but compress it to pierce almost anything on his way, much like Destructo Disk. And, of course, A slow Iron Ball coming to you is less deadly than a bullet coming at 360 km/h, so we can say that he focused on speed on the move.

And also, I agree. Some moves are made for strategy, such Hellzone Grenade, Taiyoken, and a "whip" kamehameha (that Goku used against Raditz).

But another question: This case can be applied to Gohan? He simply switched Masenko to Kamehameha as his strongest attack. He uses Masenko sometimes, but as a weaker attack.

[Insertclevername]

That's a good question really, perhaps some moves like the Masenko happen to be charged quicker or have some sort of advantage over the Kamehameha, one that is beyond our mental comprehension.

[Hitiro]

But I believe Makankosappo is a special case. He tried not only to charge all his KI on it, but compress it to pierce almost anything on his way, much like Destructo Disk. And, of course, A slow Iron Ball coming to you is less deadly than a bullet coming at 360 km/h, so we can say that he focused on speed on the move.

I was using Makankosappo as an example of one of many moves, Goku's Kamehameha, while his powerlevel was only 416, shot up to 924. And Raditz said it was still increasing.

But another question: This case can be applied to Gohan? He simply switched Masenko to Kamehameha as his strongest attack. He uses Masenko sometimes, but as a weaker attack.

Well I'd say its about the refinement of the technique, if you recall back to when Master Roshi was fighting Goku in the tournament, while Goku was pretty much his equal, Roshi said that Goku's Kamehameha was far from being mastered and that it wouldn't stand a chance against his. So obviously the mastery of a technique effects its ability in battle, Gohan probably stuck with Masenko until he could master the Kamehameha to a level where its ability surpassed the Masenko's. We can only assume that Gohan mastered the Masenko pretty quickly during is time with Piccolo, the technique was probably developed for it to be easily mastered and provide a decent output from the users ki ready for the Saiyans arrival.

[soulnova]

I agree with Hitiro and Insertclevername.

It seems like the usual ki strikes can be as strong as your total power level. You would need a special training to be able to harness and concentrate more ki than your normal limit. Goku's kame-hame-ha against Raditz was like... what? 900? He almost doubled it. Piccoro managed to triple his base amount but needed time to charge it, so there's that.

[012yArthur0]

I agree with Hitiro and Insertclevername.

It seems like the usual ki strikes can be as strong as your total power level. You would need a special training to be able to harness and concentrate more ki than your normal limit. Goku's kame-hame-ha against Raditz was like... what? 900? He almost doubled it. Piccoro managed to triple his base amount but needed time to charge it, so there's that.

What about that "barrage" of ki blasts that Goku used against Cell? This could be meant as one too?

[Cipher]

I was wondering, what makes the move stronger after all? I mean, if Goku charges X ki to a Kamehameha, is as strong as a Energy blast from one hand charged by ki? If so, why the characters always resort to the "signature moves"?

If It actually help the damage scale, what makes it get stronger, why, and how much?

I think you're looking at it the wrong way, in that you assume there's actually a "generic" ki blast in the first place.

There are just different ways of channeling and firing the ki the characters possess. Think of it as any regular, real-world fighting move. Take a punch; it's just a way of throwing your fist at someone. But there aren't really "generic" punches. You can lunge, you can backfist, you can slug, swing, jab, wind up a different way, target a different area, etc. Some of these, plenty of them, are named.

Same thing with ki attacks in Dragon Ball. Different deliveries deliver different results. Some characters choose to name certain ways of firing ki they worked particularly hard on or that deliver distinct results; others don't.

Look at the Kamehameha; we see Goku continuously do more damage with it than any one-handed, unnamed ki blast he performs. So we can gather that he can't just "gather as much energy into a one-handed blast." Something about that two-handed motion and the way he builds the ki for it give him that particular, more powerful blast. On the other hand, he does sometimes use those faster, smaller one-handed blasts for barrages, and in certain situations that's more desirable.

And then you have things like Vegeta's named attacks, most of which are just extremely powerful but otherwise "generic" one- or two-handed blasts. Obviously something about the way he lets them build up, or even giving them more build up or putting more power into them in the first place (hell, maybe just the tactic of pouring all his power at once) gives him something distinct that he chooses to name.

A punch is a punch; a ki blast is a ki blast. Sometimes you wind up and slug, sometimes you jab, sometimes you invent a Spinning Dragon Punch to target various pressure points and keep the technique secret forever. Different variations produce different results, some of which are unique enough that characters want to put their signature on them.

[Hitiro]

I agree with Hitiro and Insertclevername.

It seems like the usual ki strikes can be as strong as your total power level. You would need a special training to be able to harness and concentrate more ki than your normal limit. Goku's kame-hame-ha against Raditz was like... what? 900? He almost doubled it. Piccoro managed to triple his base amount but needed time to charge it, so there's that.

What about that "barrage" of ki blasts that Goku used against Cell? This could be meant as one too?

soulnova points it out just fine. regular ki blasts will never be on par with a specific technique a character has developed but that doesn't mean their output can't be good enough to do some damage against an opponent of a similar level. Goku using a barrage of ki blasts as Cipher pointed out was just desirable in that situation as he was backed up against a wall due to Cells pressure. Cell and Goku are also at around the same level here, with Cell holding back, which is why ki blasts are fine if you take into consideration that they are around the same level. A Kamehameha would be a bad thing to do in this instance because of the time it takes to charge such an attack and Cell was attacking pretty relentlessly at that point.

[Mjb1985]

Just more training IMO. I think regular ki blasts are like one throwing a punch, and doing a KHH is like using a refined left hook you've trained. Your just going to be able to use better body mechanics and focus more energy do to it's specialised nature.

[LiamKav]

The only problem with that analogy is that we see people doing signature attacks first, and the only later do they start doing generic ki blasts. It seems backwards.

(Anyone know when the first generic ki-blast was used in the series. I'm just up to Piccolo taking over the world, and it's not shown up yet. PD does not always name his attacks, but they don't seem "generic", apart from maybe a mouth blast.)

[Hitiro]

The only problem with that analogy is that we see people doing signature attacks first, and the only later do they start doing generic ki blasts. It seems backwards.

(Anyone know when the first generic ki-blast was used in the series. I'm just up to Piccolo taking over the world, and it's not shown up yet. PD does not always name his attacks, but they don't seem "generic", apart from maybe a mouth blast.)

There are two instances in the 23rd Budokai Tenkaichi, the first one I'm not so sure about. Krillin launches two ki blasts which follow Piccolo Jr. but I'm hesitant as to whether they are ki blasts or just variants of the Kamehameha, the next one is Goku vs. Tien. In the opening for panels they both jump up into the air and Tien launches a blast which Goku easily deflects back at him.

[Cipher]

The only problem with that analogy is that we see people doing signature attacks first, and the only later do they start doing generic ki blasts. It seems backwards.

(Anyone know when the first generic ki-blast was used in the series. I'm just up to Piccolo taking over the world, and it's not shown up yet. PD does not always name his attacks, but they don't seem "generic", apart from maybe a mouth blast.)

I've actually thought about this too, and am equally curious as to when the first "generic" ki blasts show up. Does Vegeta throw some while he's fighting Goku? When does Goku first use them? Is it as late as the Cell Games?

But I think the in-universe explanation for why characters are so late to use them is that firing ki is a tremendously difficult and tiring process at first. Their specialized techniques probably help them both use and get the most out of their ki attacks. Later, when the characters are tremendously more powerful, adept with energy-use, and have ki to burn, they can afford to toss around more generic, unnamed blasts if the situation calls for it.

[Insertclevername]

I think Gokuu first used a normal Ki blast to shoot out Vegeta's eye when he was an ozaroo.

[LiamKav]

Piccolo Daimao is pretty free with the eye blasts after his youth is restored. It's probably the closest the series had gotten at that point to a "generic" attack, as before that everything else seemed to be named and have a warm-up time.

[Piccolo Daimao]

I think the first time we see a generic ki-blast used in the series was when Tenshinhan shot one during his match against Gokuu at the 23rd Tenkaichi Budoukai. Kuririn fired two against Ma Junior, and they were homing blasts. Gokuu blinded Oozaru Vegeta with a regular ki-blast. And before that, Piccolo fired one at Nappa's back and Vegeta threw one at Kaiouken x3 Gokuu, who avoided it.