DBZ Budokai HD Collection: Official On-Going Thread

[JeffJarrett]

Though if we are gonna get into the subject of simulator, technically every video game is a simulator.

Agree, every video game is a simulator.

Also, a video game hasn't to be a clone of Tekken or Street Fighter to be listed as a fighting game, as it hasn't to be a clone of Dragon Quest to be listed as RPG. That's why The Legend of Zelda games are often listed as Action-RPG. Street Fighter and King of Fighter were clones of each other, like Tekken, Soul Calibur, Virtua Fighter, and now even SF4 are clones of each others.

The Budokai Tenkaichi games are different to the other "3D" fighting games, which are in fact "2D" fighting with 3D characters. The Tenkaichi games are actually real 3D fighting games.

[InfernalVegito]

No offence to some of the Tenkaichi fans, because its only a certain percentage of them, but there are idiots who think the Tenkaichi series is better than all they others because of the amount of characters, techniques and maps it has. But those people really need to wake up and see that it shouldn't be about fan service, it should be about the game mechanics.

I agree with you that a game first needs to have a good core mechanic to it and then focus on fan service. But I wouldn't call people idiots just because they have another opinion or taste. You basically said those who look for more characters, costumes and not gameplay are idiots just because they do so. This isn't fair. Let everyone like things the way they want to.
It's as if you put yourself on a higher moral ground just because you focus more on gameplay mechanics than characters and stuff.

[Rukura]

No offence to some of the Tenkaichi fans, because its only a certain percentage of them, but there are idiots who think the Tenkaichi series is better than all they others because of the amount of characters, techniques and maps it has. But those people really need to wake up and see that it shouldn't be about fan service, it should be about the game mechanics.

The problem there is that...well, that's what anime based games are all about.
It's not for the "that rewarding aspect of pulling off that harder combo", but the "I'm playing as that character, making them do that move from the show, ain't that cool".

[dbboxkaifan]

Agree, every video game is a simulator.

Every video game is a simulator? Sport games aren't, there's arcade and simulators.

FIFA = Simulator
PES = Arcade

I'd rather play a real football game on FIFA than the arcadey PES, regardless of how hard Konami will try to have an "authentic" football game it'll probably never happen.

Gran Turismo / Forza are called simulators but the cars don't get damaged, lose parts or stop working after so many hits, this is where Race Driver GRID comes in as all that GT/F don't GRID does.

By the way, is NASCAR: The Game 2011 even a simulator? The damn cars after a single crash all fly high.

/ot

[Saimaroimaru]

As I have said, Tenkaichi is a roam fighter. A fighter non the less.

And as I keep saying, Tenkaichi is a DBZ Battle simulator with fighting elements.

That's an extremely well made answer. Couldn't agree with you more. I would like to ask one question in general, is there even enough keen interest in having a ''real'' fighter. Budokai is great but even so it can be better. I just want to know as a percentage of fans, how many actually want a traditional fighter over a dbz simulator?

This is something I would like to know myself, I know there are quite a few people who hold the Budokai games in good regard and they also think it could do much better and even be pushed onto the competitive scene. Unfortunately we have to compete with people who think the Tenkaichi games are the best, and they are in their own way, but the Budokai games are and always will be a fighting series that could make the DBZ have a firm foothold in the fighting community. No offence to some of the Tenkaichi fans, because its only a certain percentage of them, but there are idiots who think the Tenkaichi series is better than all they others because of the amount of characters, techniques and maps it has. But those people really need to wake up and see that it shouldn't be about fan service, it should be about the game mechanics. After a games has fleshed out some decent game mechanics, then it can focus on fan service. Games like SF4 do well because the game mechanics are pretty good, I myself am not a great fan of SF4 but I will admit that most of its mechanics are well constructed and because of this they can afford to throw out DLC of different character costumes and skins because people like the ones I was just on about do care about that sort of thing. Developing the game mechanics will also help with the games promotion outside of the usual audience, if we look at a game like Skull Girls you would think that a game like that is targeted at such a niche audience it wouldn't have much of a foothold. But the game mechanics in that game are also quite well developed and fleshed out which is why the game has seen support from outside its intended audience. I feel the the Tenkaichi series could eventually become a fighting series, and a good one, through a few more iterations but, as I said, the Budokai series seems to be the most likely option right now and people should really back the HD collection for hopes that we could see a new Budokai title in the near future with some decent online play.

Technically isnt any game thats based on something that happens in real life a simulator? Even though its based off a cartoon the core base of the Tenkaichi games is fighting. Thats like saying Call of Duty isn't a shooting game its a war simulator, or Golden Eye isnt a shooting game but a FBI/Secret agent simulator or that Tekken isn't a fighting game its an exaggerated Martial Arts simulator.

Yes I agree that the Spike games are DBZ simulators but so are the Dimps games and the adventure games. At the same time they are also games of their respective genres, so yes Tenkaichi (1,2,3,TT) and Raging Blast (1,2) are fighting games just like the Budokai games.

A simulator must be accurate, you can't really call Tekken a "Martial Arts" simulator with the way the characters fight in it. Yoshimitsu teleports everywhere, there is a boxing tiger headed fighter who can launch people metres up in the air and you have characters like Kazuya which produce electric. The exact same thing can be said for the Call of Duty games to be honest, I'm sure you've played the games all the way through? Can you honestly tell me you can see people half dead on the floor launching blades through the air into someone else's head that was pulled from their own chest? Its borderline ridiculous to think that anything like that would happen in real life. Also the game mechanics in the games would be more realistic in terms with what is being simulated. If we take Golden eye and 007 got shot at point blank range with a shotgun he wouldn't survive or at least be severely wounded. You also don't see characters in COD limping because they've been shot in the leg while your playing through the campaign.

Then I think we can agree to disagree then.

Agree, every video game is a simulator.

Every video game is a simulator? Sport games aren't, there's arcade and simulators.

FIFA = Simulator
PES = Arcade

I'd rather play a real football game on FIFA than the arcadey PES, regardless of how hard Konami will try to have an "authentic" football game it'll probably never happen.

Gran Turismo / Forza are called simulators but the cars don't get damaged, lose parts or stop working after so many hits, this is where Race Driver GRID comes in as all that GT/F don't GRID does.

By the way, is NASCAR: The Game 2011 even a simulator? The damn cars after a single crash all fly high.

/ot

/facepalm

[Hitiro]

I didn't say that I didn't like the Tenkaichi games, I like them for what they are and they aren't fighting games.

But last time I played Sparking! METEOR, I remember mine & my brother's chosen characters fighting each other on multi-player...

Did you read everything I said? I have already said that the games simulate the battles in the dragonball universe and that they have elements of fighting games. That does not make them fighting games though, much like The Legend of Zelda games are action adventure games with RPG elements, that doesn't make them RPG games.

Agree, every video game is a simulator.

Also, a video game hasn't to be a clone of Tekken or Street Fighter to be listed as a fighting game, as it hasn't to be a clone of Dragon Quest to be listed as RPG. That's why The Legend of Zelda games are often listed as Action-RPG. Street Fighter and King of Fighter were clones of each other, like Tekken, Soul Calibur, Virtua Fighter, and now even SF4 are clones of each others.

The Budokai Tenkaichi games are different to the other "3D" fighting games, which are in fact "2D" fighting with 3D characters. The Tenkaichi games are actually real 3D fighting games.

This isn't what I implied at all, but there are set things within a genre that make it what it is. If you want to categorise it as a fighter it must follow certain things otherwise it can't really be called such. This is the reason why we have genres after all, you can think of it this way if you like; You buy a game that is classified as an FPS, you put it into your console and start to play and then you realise there is no shooting aspect. So that makes it just a First Person game then, right? But you can also say that it has elements of being an FPS, why? Because the game does have first person view, it just lacks the shooter aspect. This is exactly the case with the Tenkaichi games, it lacks a few of the elements that would make it a fighting game such as moves having Priority, Pokes, Damage Scaling, Punishing, Startup frames, Footsies, Pressuring. < All elements important in any fighting game even if its a non-traditional fighter. Of course there are limits to this, if a game has only a few elements missing from that genre and it is indeed the main aspect of the game then you can say that the genre is that type. Though I'm not sure where you would draw the line in this regard. Though I guess that's why it seems people disagree with me on the subject that the Tenkaichi games are DBZ battle simulators with fighting elements.

I agree with you that a game first needs to have a good core mechanic to it and then focus on fan service. But I wouldn't call people idiots just because they have another opinion or taste. You basically said those who look for more characters, costumes and not gameplay are idiots just because they do so. This isn't fair. Let everyone like things the way they want to.
It's as if you put yourself on a higher moral ground just because you focus more on gameplay mechanics than characters and stuff.

I'm afraid you misunderstand. I'm not saying they are idiots because they like fan service. I'm saying they are idiots because they think fan service means its the #1 game in the universe, they don't care about the other factors of the game. When you ask them why they think its better than another one they just say "Because it has more stuff." I'm on about these sorts of idiots.

[JeffJarrett]

Simulation doesn't mean simulating real life. Then there would be no point in having car games while you can drive a real car..

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

I have to apologise, once again I am not sure what you are trying to get at. It's probably my fault to be honest but what to you mean by "Budokai 1 and 2 require transformations to do so"? Do you mean that combos can only really be pulled off by characters with transformations?

Whoa! Wow, that must of come out wrong. What I meant to say is that transformations are the only thing I can think of in the first two games- since teleports don't exist- that could allow someone to break out of a longer combo if they're still on the ground to use it. If I'm wrong there than I would really like hear the alternative.

Because as long as you cancel well and use decent juggles any character can produce a good combo string. Saiyan's, like Goku, indeed have a great deal of transformations in the game. But I should point out that transformations apply a damage modifier to the character so they can do more damage, but some characters who don't have transformations, for example, Kid Buu, receive a flat damage modifier at the beginning of the fight.

I am aware of these. I found it funny that each Super Sayain form only boosted incrementally, at least in B2 (I remember Super Sayain 3 giving no more than a 30%- I need to check that), and how appropriate but fair it was that Kid Buu (Cell and Freeza as well in B2, I believe, being stuck in their final forms) get a 10% power boost right off the bat. Main villains, after all.

This means that while characters like Goku can increase their damage by an extra 45% that only happens when, and if they can transform. Kid Buu would start the fight with the 45% damage modifier and keep it all the way through the fight while Goku must work for his damage modifier and if he is hit when his ki is red or enters fatigue he will have to start from the beginning. Also characters like Freeza, Broly and Cell have permanent transformations so that even if they get hit when their ki is red or if they enter fatigue they will keep the damage modifier. So really this balances it out even more against characters who have a great deal of transformations like Goku.

I'm really kind of surprised I hadn't factored that in before, particularly forgetting about fatigue since I haven't played Budokai 3 in a while. It makes the "Super Sayain stun juggle" (Which I think is hilarious) feel a little less haxy. The problem I have, which I suppose is a mark of skill, is Goku players going straight to Super Sayain 4 and Super Dragon Fisting their way to the win.

On to your ki management portion, yes, the game plays out exactly how you explained. Ki management is an important aspect of control in any fight. As for pokes, well, most characters have certain moves that just flat out have good reach. One such example is Goku's >PKK which is a great string that can be cancelled at the end and has good priority, it would be pretty hard for a person to get their attack to come out in between the startup frames of that string as they are only 5-10 frames long also because the last K is a charge attack you can absorb a hit if they try to get one off. Other characters, like Raditz I believe, have some strings which are great pokes because they have the ability to absorb the first hit, which charge attacks can also do. Other than these you have generic ki blasts which can be very useful as a poke, if you have enough ki to chance it. It forces your opponent to either deflect it or side step it, basically pressuring them. Also obviously they will take damage if they don't react. In budokai 3 they have the option of teleporting behind you to avoid it but that just means you will have the advantage as the first one to teleport will be the first one to run out of ki.

The best part of this is is that I actually played B2 a couple hours ago and within ten minutes I was consistenly knockdown kicking Buu with Supreme Kai of all people- story appropriate, but no reach. Not entirely safe, but it's certainly something of a poke. I finally tried Gero's deflect R & D as well, which removes the ki blast option.

Actually there is another way of extending and that is to stop short of doing the full combo string. Some strings have really good stun on them so finishing half way through is beneficial because you have the frame advantage to recover and finish your startup frames before your opponent does. Some charge attacks also provide you some really good frame advantage, if you have a decent amount of frame advantage some very good players can back dash and hit you with another combo string.

I was trying stopping on the third hit, not sure if I've got it working, and I've seen back dash attacking but I've never tried it myself.

I suppose a lot of the easier dial combos are but isn't that a bit silly wanting them to be harder and have more advantageous options on the easier dial combos? Why should you be provided with easy dial combos that give you a good advantage over dial combos that you have to work for to get a good advantage.

Agree, I agree, I was being pissy about my inability to get cancel combos.

I just want to know as a percentage of fans, how many actually want a traditional fighter over a dbz simulator?

Given the hype that the "Sparking! OMEGA" rumor got within 24 hours, that seems like as much of an answer as we're going to get. Traditional fighting game fans that are also Dragon Ball fans (and even some that aren't so much into fighting games) would prefer a Super Dragon Ball Z 2...but I imagine it's a much smaller group.

The "2D Fighting should have died in the 90's" sentiment is certainly a thing.

[Hitiro]

Whoa! Wow, that must of come out wrong. What I meant to say is that transformations are the only thing I can think of in the first two games- since teleports don't exist- that could allow someone to break out of a longer combo if they're still on the ground to use it. If I'm wrong there than I would really like hear the alternative.

Ah, now I see what you are on about. Well, because Budokai 1 & 2 didn't have teleports the alternative they came up with is to make certain inputs within strings blockable, I will give you an example. Goku has a string which is like this: PPKKK the last K in this string is blockable by the opponent. I can't remember all the strings in which this is the case or how its exactly done, its been a long time since I've played the game. I believe there's a write-up, probably on GameFAQ's, which gives you a list of some of these. To be honest B1 and B2 aren't the best in this department.

I was trying stopping on the third hit, not sure if I've got it working, and I've seen back dash attacking but I've never tried it myself.

I'd just try testing different strings to see what ones give some good frame hit advantage. You should be able to see a particularly good amount of stun by the bob of the opponents head, he'll either throw it back or throw it forward. I will however mention that doing combo's through this method means you will have to time the when your last inputs recovery up. It might be a very tight to link it to another string.

Agree, I agree, I was being pissy about my inability to get cancel combos.

So do you know how to cancel? It really isn't that difficult, all the strings that have some sort of charge attack in them can be cancelled, two off the top of my head are >PKK and KKKK. The last input of both those strings can be cancelled when you see them charging, I assume you know that you hold the inputs of these last commands in the string to charge them and then all you have to to is tap guard to cancel the current input. Just practice trying to cancel these into other combo strings, that's if you want of course.

[Saiga]

I just want to know as a percentage of fans, how many actually want a traditional fighter over a dbz simulator?

Personally, I want a happy medium. But I suppose that's too much to ask of the developers.

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

I just want to know as a percentage of fans, how many actually want a traditional fighter over a dbz simulator?

Personally, I want a happy medium. But I suppose that's too much to ask of the developers.

The problem is and always has been buttons; the more buttons you use for mobility the less you have for attack inputs. Even having just one more melee button, maybe distinguishing between high and low body attacks would do a lot for the Sparking mold.

Ah, now I see what you are on about. Well, because Budokai 1 & 2 didn't have teleports the alternative they came up with is to make certain inputs within strings blockable, I will give you an example. Goku has a string which is like this: PPKKK the last K in this string is blockable by the opponent. I can't remember all the strings in which this is the case or how its exactly done, its been a long time since I've played the game. I believe there's a write-up, probably on GameFAQ's, which gives you a list of some of these. To be honest B1 and B2 aren't the best in this department.

Hmm. I've probably seen it before and not made a note of it, I'll look for that.

I'd just try testing different strings to see what ones give some good frame hit advantage. You should be able to see a particularly good amount of stun by the bob of the opponents head, he'll either throw it back or throw it forward. I will however mention that doing combo's through this method means you will have to time the when your last inputs recovery up. It might be a very tight to link it to another string.[/quote]

There we go, then. I do know any move that bashes someone's head in- kind of- is a hard stun. I just haven't been able to replicate it very often. I know charge attacks aren't the only way to inflict it, but they're the only way I know.

Agree, I agree, I was being pissy about my inability to get cancel combos.So do you know how to cancel?

Nope. I know it's guarding out of the last hit in a string fast enough to start a new one, I just can't time it. I'll try the ones you've listed. GameFAQs does have an entire Faq about it complete with combo lists, it just doesn't do much for me until I can pull it off.

[PhoenixEX]

Budokai Collection without Budokai 2...what has the world come to...

[Bluebolt]

The problem is and always has been buttons; the more buttons you use for mobility the less you have for attack inputs. Even having just one more melee button, maybe distinguishing between high and low body attacks would do a lot for the Sparking mold.

I always found the camera in the Sparking series very finicky. To distinguish between high and low in a game like that would be a nightmare. (Imagine viewing your character from behind). The high and low attacks would work better in a 2d (e.g Hyper Dimension) or 3D (SDBZ). Hm...thinking about it know I'm surprised Budokai 3 didn't have low or high attacks. Yeah I'd want at least 3-4 inputs for attacks (not counting ki if that's gonna be a serparate button.)

Aren't we going slightly off topic? This is about HD collections.

Speaking of which, wouldn't it be very easy to put Hyper Dimension into HD? Tweak it a bit. Slap on online, put in on PSN Xbox LIVE. (Sell it for 15-20 dollars) and done.

[Super Sayian Prime]

Nostal has said that the HD Collection actually isn't being developed by Dimps, but rather someone else. How nice of Namco Bandai to not credit them on their page for this game.

[Hellspawn28]

Most HD collections are never work on by the same developers. The Devil May Cry HD collection for example, was developed by Pipeworks Software (the same company that work on the Atari Godzilla video games).

[cloud1414]

Nostal has said that the HD Collection actually isn't being developed by Dimps, but rather someone else. How nice of Namco Bandai to not credit them on their page for this game.

Now if they dont credit them for making the original game would that lead to some legal problems. Its not that hard to say original game made by Dimps. Like with the Halo 1 remake 343 credited Bungie for the original game. I know Halo has nothing to do with Dragon Ball but I'm just trying to make a point.

[Hellspawn28]

Since Dimps are the ones that originally work on those games then I would imagine that they would credited them down for making those two games.

[SparkyPantsMcGee]

Nostal has said that the HD Collection actually isn't being developed by Dimps, but rather someone else. How nice of Namco Bandai to not credit them on their page for this game.

Now if they dont credit them for making the original game would that lead to some legal problems. Its not that hard to say original game made by Dimps. Like with the Halo 1 remake 343 credited Bungie for the original game. I know Halo has nothing to do with Dragon Ball but I'm just trying to make a point.

343 not only got their name on the box, but were also brought up several times during press discussions. You knew they were making the game and Microsoft wasn't afraid to say it. The point here is that whoever is doing the port isn't getting any credit for their work. While I wouldn't make a big stink about it, it is a bit misleading to have fans think Dimps is handling their own port.

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

Do we know if the PAL versions of the collection will be getting the Funi dub with Budokai? I've been discussing the game elsewhere and I've run into several players concerned that it will be Japanese-only again; and the press release doesn't help. I would think Sony's requirement of English voice work, if they still hold it, would supersede this, given that last I checked only the PAL Gamecube versions were Japanese-only.

[MCDaveG]

Nostal has said that the HD Collection actually isn't being developed by Dimps, but rather someone else. How nice of Namco Bandai to not credit them on their page for this game.

Now if they dont credit them for making the original game would that lead to some legal problems. Its not that hard to say original game made by Dimps. Like with the Halo 1 remake 343 credited Bungie for the original game. I know Halo has nothing to do with Dragon Ball but I'm just trying to make a point.

343 not only got their name on the box, but were also brought up several times during press discussions. You knew they were making the game and Microsoft wasn't afraid to say it. The point here is that whoever is doing the port isn't getting any credit for their work. While I wouldn't make a big stink about it, it is a bit misleading to have fans think Dimps is handling their own port.

Well, I don't think this will be a direct port with remaping and redoing for PS3/XBOX. Most of ports are actually originals from console running on custom build emulator and I think this won't be exception. Really, enhanced graphics? You can do that too with PCSX2 on PC and assign buttons on keyboard or 360 controller, no sweat. Which leads me to question:
''Why didn't they included Budokai 2, if it's kinda easy process?'' Maybe because of disk space?