DBZ Budokai HD Collection: Official On-Going Thread

[VegettoEX]

Every character in Mortal Kombat 1-3 has the exact same basic attacks and range for each single one (high punch, low punch, high kick, low kick, roundhouse, sweep, uppercut).

Therefore, not a fighting game...?

Look, I don't love the Sparking! games much myself, but let's not be entirely fucking batshit crazy and say that they're not even fighting games at all.

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

Yes, I know. =)

I am actually a programmer myself doing a degree in computer games development. While graphics isn't my strongest area in programming I do get the gist of the area and I know more or less how things are done within the industry, as well as projects like the PCSX2.

Figured you did. I'm actually going to be dabbling in a program-IT track as major later this year, so far all I've got is basic Windows applications. It makes me qualified to talk about jack, of course. What are you doing with it now?

Everyone shares the same normal moves, everyone has the same start up animation for rush supers, the same start up speed, the same recovery; moreorless same everything. They were made with such poor design because the developer wanted to squeeze as much characters as they could within a year. In fact making them so basic was the only way they were going to make 50 characters a game.

[/quote]

Because they only had a year, knew a large roster would please a fanbase, and Spike isn't exactly a developer with a reputation or much of a history to begin with.

[DonieZ]

Every character in Mortal Kombat 1-3 has the exact same basic attacks and range for each single one (high punch, low punch, high kick, low kick, roundhouse, sweep, uppercut).

Therefore, not a fighting game...?

Look, I don't love the Sparking! games much myself, but let's not be entirely fucking batshit crazy and say that they're not even fighting games at all.

Yup, though it's probably stuff like that why the majority of the fighting game community thinks MK is sub-par to other fighters. Still a fighter though eh lol.

Saying something doesn't do what it does well is fine, but saying because of that you have to create an entirely new genre for it just to give it credibility is downright crazy.

Because they only had a year, knew a large roster would please a fanbase, and Spike isn't exactly a developer with a reputation or much of a history to begin with.

Yeah, I understand exactly why they did it. I don't support it though. It could also be due to the fact they may not have actually known how to make a good fighting game. I mean, judging by their video game history shown on Wikipedia, they havent exactly worked with a proper fighting game before. They tend to main in action-esque style games; the closest to a fighting game they've every developed is, if I remember correctly, some wrestling game.

I think they need to wake up though, because it's around 6 years later and their methods are no longer working. Many of us older (I definitely am), we won't get fooled by the same trick. I want a quality game, quality characters, and can wait a couple years for the roster to build up.

Edit:

IDk, it just some form of denial that came out of another forum during the BT3/Rb era when the Budokai vs Tenkaichi debates were at their highest. They think that calling it s simulator somehow fixes everything. Tenkiachi is a roam fighter, yes it lacks many things present in a traditional fighter but the series creators were not intending on making a traditional fighter, otherwise the games would be much different. Just means Tenkaichi is not a traditional fighter but it still is one regardless since traditional is not the only style. Spike is now struggling to get their roam fighters appeal to the traditional crowd but the sentiment from the old days has people throwing around simulator.

The Tenkaichi and Rb series are just a bunch of disappointing roam fighters. Fighters still.

Thing is 'Traditional fighters' and 'Roam fighters' aren't official genres at all, just ways people find of describing games. Tenkaichi and RB aren't only dissapointing roam fighters, they're dissapointing fighters, standard. Good fighters, in whatever dimension, all require the same thing: a variety in character play-styles, solid mechanics and balanced characters, and, for the better/more competitive games, a good level of depth. Tenkaichi falls short of all these things, the game's sales revolve simply around fan service. Dissapointing fighting game series' indeed.

[Hitiro]

Every character in Mortal Kombat 1-3 has the exact same basic attacks and range for each single one (high punch, low punch, high kick, low kick, roundhouse, sweep, uppercut).

Therefore, not a fighting game...?

Look, I don't love the Sparking! games much myself, but let's not be entirely fucking batshit crazy and say that they're not even fighting games at all.

The Tenkaichi games lack Priority, Pokes, Damage Scaling, Punishing, Startup frames, Footsies and any real sort of Pressuring. Just because MK 1-3 have the same attacks and range for each character doesn't mean the game is not a fighter, the lack of certain fundamental mechanics and aspects is what does that. Last I checked MK 1-3 had all the things I mentioned the Tenkaichi games lacked, even if Damage Scaling isn't an element within the games that is fine because they would still have a lot of the other features to make the games, fighters. But a clear lack of all these elements is just the company saying to us "Hey, we made a game but it only has a few elements a fighter should have, whether it be traditional or non-traditional." This keeps bringing me back to the points I made earlier of how The Legend of Zelda series are called action adventure games with RPG elements. So is Tenkaichi a DBZ battle simulator with fighting elements..

[VegettoEX]

Do the Sparking! games definitively not have any elements of "Priority, Pokes, Damage Scaling, Punishing, Startup frames, Footsies and any real sort of Pressuring"...? 'Cuz I'm pretty sure they do. Certainly not Super Turbo-refined level stuff, but pretending they're not there at all is kinda silly.

[Super Saiyajin Luffy]

Do the Sparking! games definitively not have any elements of "Priority, Pokes, Damage Scaling, Punishing, Startup frames, Footsies and any real sort of Pressuring"...? 'Cuz I'm pretty sure they do. Certainly not Super Turbo-refined level stuff, but pretending they're not there at all is kinda silly.

Priority: checked
Pokes: somehow
Damage Scaling: nope
Punishing: not traditional punishing
Startup frames: checked
Footsies: never noticed, unless far distance Ki-Spam
Pressuring: somehow
Chara Matchups: not really
Did I forgot anything?

[Hitiro]

Do the Sparking! games definitively not have any elements of "Priority, Pokes, Damage Scaling, Punishing, Startup frames, Footsies and any real sort of Pressuring"...? 'Cuz I'm pretty sure they do. Certainly not Super Turbo-refined level stuff, but pretending they're not there at all is kinda silly.

Priority: checked
Pokes: somehow
Damage Scaling: nope
Punishing: not traditional punishing
Startup frames: checked
Footsies: never noticed, unless far distance Ki-Spam
Pressuring: somehow
Chara Matchups: not really
Did I forgot anything?

I suggest you re-evaluate all those.

Priority: There is none, the only thing you could consider for being priority are the smash attacks but you can't really count them. The mechanics for smash attacks work so that rush attacks will not stop them, only other smash attacks which are released(If you are charging them) earlier will allow you to beat them. As such it isn't about priority but who can let out the smash attack first.

Pokes: There are no pokes within the game that I know of, all melee attacks must be done at a point blank range for them to actually hit. There is no maximum range for you to particularly hit an opponent at with melee attacks because all melee attacks share the same maximum distance. If you are using rush attacks, which are the only things you can use at the start as smash attacks need to be started off by a chain of rush attacks, then the opponent can easily start up their own rush attack string which means they can tank their way through yours.

Punishing: There is no punishing in the Tenkaichi games, if you drop a rush string(I don't even know how you would because its just pressing the same button over and over again) then you can start back up again or match your opponent at their rush string meaning you will both not suffer and can follow up straight after. Also something which they failed heavy on in Tenkaichi 2 but fixed in Tenkaichi 3 was the fact that teleporting out of your opponents attacks cost nothing which meant that most battles generally fell to who would do the least mistakes in teleporting.

Startup Frames: Last I checked as long as you were the first one to launch an attack you will always win the bout, the only exception to this is if both players launch their attacks at relatively the same time which means the one to finished last is at a better advantage because the person who finishes first will have to take the hit from the other person putting them into hit stun.

Footsies: You can't have this without pokes or the ability to punish the other person, ki blasts really can't be counted as they do not pressure the other person into doing anything but swatting the ki blasts away and that is not a hard thing to do. They don't even have to swat them away because they could just block it. Or the alternative is to dragon rush through them, to the side or ascend up into the air. Footsies are there to pressure your opponent into doing mistakes but there are no mechanics for safely doing this from a good distance and no mechanics which can provide pressure.

Pressure: Not really any mechanics for pressure, all techniques may be avoided to some degree without too much difficulty. The only thing that I would even consider as pressure are some supers and ultimates that follow the opponent but they can be simply dragon rushed to avoid them.

[DonieZ]

Snip

You missed my post at the bottom of the last page...

The reason though that the game barely has any noticeable mechanics as such is because they are poorly designed, as I said on the previous page.

[SparkyPantsMcGee]

I think there is a Dai...um excuse me Kanzenshuu rule somewhere that states at least five pages in any new game thread must consist of a Budokai vs. Sparking debate. As a long time participant I can honestly say, it's an old hat. Regardless of your opinion, saying the Sparking games aren't fighting games is just silly. They may not be good or deep fighting games, but they are still fighting games. I like the simulation title these games were getting because I think it describes them perfectly. The goal of these games has always been to try and replicate the style of the show(whether or not you think that's fun is entirely up to you) whereas most of the Dimps built their games off of a more traditional model.

[Hitiro]

You misunderstand the point I'm trying to make, the Budokai games are good at being fighting games because thats what they are. The Tenkaichi games are good at simulating DBZ battles, this is why they are simulators with fighting elements. That doesn't mean I am trying to make an excuse for the Tenkaichi games, I am merely calling it how I see them. If you want a fighting game go with the Budokai series, if you want a game which simulates the battles in the show then go with the Tenkaichi games. The reason the Tenkaichi games don't make good fighting games is because they lack a lot of aspects that a fighting game should have. The same can be said in regard for the Budokai games and their battles being like the anime and manga, they lack the freedom and space to be like the anime and manga in this area.

I love the Budokai games for being fighting games and I love the Tenkaichi games for simulating the DBZ battles, however, I would like to see this collection do well for hopes of a new Budokai title as I feel the franchise needs a strong game that can be played on the competitive scene. The DBZ games will do much better and improve in quality if we have the competitive scene promoting the game. The Tenkaichi series, being simulators with fighting elements, are far from being developed enough to be played at a competitive level. This is because they lack many aspects for them to be considered as fighting games. So in terms of ranking which games are closer to being played at a competitive level it would be the Budokai games, then the Raging Blast games and then the Tenkaichi games.

The thing is, 'simulator' is not an official genre or an official anything. The Tenkaichi games try to be fighting games, but they suck so much that you can barely call them fighting games.Everyone shares the same normal moves, everyone has the same start up animation for rush supers, the same start up speed, the same recovery; moreorless same everything. They were made with such poor design because the developer wanted to squeeze as much characters as they could within a year. In fact making them so basic was the only way they were going to make 50 characters a game.

And btw, the Budokai games aren't the best fighting games either, they are far to linear. There is no high low mix-up, block button means there is no cross up game, etc. It could be a lot better (and yes other iterations have improved it), but it isn't the best thing since sliced bread. Super DBZ is a better fighter than Budokai. In fact, I think if BL had a chance to evolve it could have been a lot better than Budokai, but that's another story...

And if Tenkaichi is a simulator, it's a crap simulator at that one. It simulates what, fighting. And the fighting is so sub par to what it could and should be. You're shooting yourself in the foot with your argument Hitiro. Lacking freedom and space doesn't make Budokai any less like the anime than Tenkaichi's lack of variety in characters does. These aren't action adventure games, you could call those simulators because their job is to literally try to recreate the show in game format. I have ideas that could easily improve Tenkaichi and make it that much closer to being a decent fighter, what would you call it then? Half fighter half simulator?

As I've said in many of my other posts a genre of a game is defined if its the main aspect of the mechanics or depth of the game, in this case Tenkaichi only provides a simulation of the DBZ battles with some slight fighting mechanics. The Budokai series has evolved to the point that it is the strongest series as a fighter. I agree that Super DBZ does provide some good combat mechanics and I haven't personally played it myself, it seems a lot like BL in some aspects but BL suffered from the action bar at the bottom as teleportation had no cost and you always had enough energy in the action bar to do whatever you wanted to. If BL had better net code and a ki-centred metagame like the Budokai series of games it would have been a game for the competitive scene but it suffered from changing that to a similar mechanic like Super DBZ. However I don't know if this mechanic worked very well in Super DBZ, you've obviously played it so I guess you would know.

[DragonBoxZTheMovies]

More gameplay:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIqvXbRD ... re=g-all-u
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnHZ3tAl ... re=g-all-u
The stages look freakin' gorgeous!

[Hitiro]

More gameplay:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIqvXbRD ... re=g-all-u
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnHZ3tAl ... re=g-all-u
The stages look freakin' gorgeous!

To be honest I think the stages aren't as good as Burst Limit's, they were pretty stunning in comparison.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

To be honest I think the stages aren't as good as Burst Limit's, they were pretty stunning in comparison.

How can a PS2 game compete with a PS3 game?

[Hellspawn28]

The character models look pretty nice too for a HD collection. The achievements should be easy to unlock since I buy the HD collection for easy achievement points.

[dbboxkaifan]

More gameplay:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIqvXbRD ... re=g-all-u
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnHZ3tAl ... re=g-all-u
The stages look freakin' gorgeous!

They certainly do but that BT3 music...

Not sure but I think it's Wild Rush: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=us5qoBPB6Yo

So, the only new track they composed was for the trailer/B3 opening? It can't be..

The character models look pretty nice too for a HD collection. The achievements should be easy to unlock since I buy the HD collection for easy achievement points.

Yeah, the achievements on Raging Blast 2 are also very easy and fun to unlock, sometimes I don't even know I'm about to win an achievement.

[Hitiro]

To be honest I think the stages aren't as good as Burst Limit's, they were pretty stunning in comparison.

How can a PS2 game compete with a PS3 game?

It's entirely possible if they work hard on enhancing the graphics further from the original game. Look at Halo: Anniversary, it looks comparable to other current gen titles.

[Super Sayian Prime]

Officially announced for North American release "this winter"
Comic-Con Trailer (it's really just a rebranded Japan-Expo one)

[dbboxkaifan]

[quote="Super Saiyan Prime"]*screens*[/url]

Eh?

Budokai 1 looks sort of crappy, though, Budokai 3 is glossy and looks good enough.

Maybe the screenshots aren't doing enough justice or the cam videos were making the graphics look better than they were.

I know, I know, I shouldn't judge a game from the screenshots.

[Saiga]

Budokai 1 always looked crappy, they didn't have much to work with.

[Super Sayian Prime]

Those screenshots are JPGs posted on Facebook. There's compression going on.