The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[hleV]

Given the "initial" Fat Boo absolutely stomped Gohan, I wouldn't put him in Super Saiyan range at all.

Fat Boo stomped Gohan after powering up.

[Saiga]

Given the "initial" Fat Boo absolutely stomped Gohan, I wouldn't put him in Super Saiyan range at all.

Fat Boo stomped Gohan after powering up.

He showed no indication of such a thing.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

He powered-up before smashing Dabra. That was the reason why Gohan gave up and decided to run instead.

Still, I'd place him more in the Super Saiyan 2 range than Super Saiyan before he powered-up.

[Saiga]

He powered-up before smashing Dabra. That was the reason why Gohan gave up and decided to run instead.

Still, I'd place him more in the Super Saiyan 2 range than Super Saiyan before he powered-up.

When did he power up? I don't see him powering up at all, he just went and smashed Dabra as he came out.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

After Dabra called him a "fat idiot" or whatever, he began to release steam like he usually does when he's pissed. Once he does this, he beats the crap out of Dabra, then Gohan, Trunks, and Goku comment on how his power had risen incredibly.

Chapter: 462 (DBZ 268), P1.2-4, P2.5
Context: after Boo beats Dabra
Gohan: “It-it rose…Majin Boo’s ki rose explosively…He’s str-strong…Too strong…This is unbelievable…”
Trunks: “…What the…!? This time I feel an incredible ki over there too…What’s going on?...”
[ ]
Goku (talking to Vegeta): “…It changed into an outrageous ki…So Majin Boo really isn’t anyone ordinary after all…This ain’t no time to be doing this kinda thing…! We’re the ones who let this monster out…”

[Saiga]

After Dabra called him a "fat idiot" or whatever, he began to release steam like he usually does when he's pissed. Once he does this, he beats the crap out of Dabra, then Gohan, Trunks, and Goku comment on how his power had risen incredibly.

Chapter: 462 (DBZ 268), P1.2-4, P2.5
Context: after Boo beats Dabra
Gohan: “It-it rose…Majin Boo’s ki rose explosively…He’s str-strong…Too strong…This is unbelievable…”
Trunks: “…What the…!? This time I feel an incredible ki over there too…What’s going on?...”
[ ]
Goku (talking to Vegeta): “…It changed into an outrageous ki…So Majin Boo really isn’t anyone ordinary after all…This ain’t no time to be doing this kinda thing…! We’re the ones who let this monster out…”

Ah, I had missed that quote... I don't link the steam with Boo powering up, but the quote cements it.

[Mjb1985]

Yea the two times Fat Buu is stated to power up, he released a huge amount of steam.

Initially, Fat Buu is superior to Super Saiyan Gohan and Dabura. Gohan also indicates that he can beat this Initial Fat Buu with his Super Saiyan 2 power.

Vegeta finds Initial Fat Buu to be pathetic. And this is after Vegeta has already lost a ton of power. Remember that it took all of Super Saiyan 2 Gohan's power to fill up half the meter. ( Closer to 47% or so but let's not be nitpicky here ) .

So considering that Goku and Vegeta were fighting evenly, and most likely being damaged equally. We can figure out a little chart.

Super Saiyan 2 Goku - Super Saiyan 2 Gohan = 50% of the Buu Meter


So this means, Super Saiyan 2 Majin Vegeta - Super Saiyan 2 Gohan = Battle Weary Super Saiyan 2 Majin Vegeta, is the person who finds this Initial Fat Buu laughable.

Now I think we all consider Gohan greatly weaker than Majin Vegeta, perhaps even half his power. Which would leave us with the thought of Super Saiyan 2 Gohan handling Initial Fat Buu rather easily. Which is backed up by Gohan's statement as well.

Vegeta's comments could be based on his own full power and not his weakened power, but I would still think the Battle Weary Majin Vegeta would still be able to take out Initial Fat Buu personally.

Fat Buu then powers up as stated, and is far , far above Super Saiyan Gohan. Gohan decides to run as he has no chance, and even if he could turn Super Saiyan 2, he still wouldn't have much of a chance if at all.

Fat Buu Power Up 1 is superior to Majin Vegeta and Goku, but it appears that Goku is confident enough to utter that if he and Vegeta work together, they can definitely beat Buu.

So we know Fat Buu Power Up 1 is more powerful than them, but it's not by a great margin.

Considering that Zarbon and Dodoria are the only couple I can think of that were handily defeated by Vegeta, yet suggested to have been able to beat Vegeta if they teamed up, I would find that scenario the only comparable one in the manga.

All in all, like I mentioned before, Initial Fat Buu doesn't appear to be in Super Saiyan range nor does he appear to be in Super Saiyan 2 range based on a weakened Teen Gohan and Battle Weary Vegeta both having a high level of confidence going against him.

Initial Fat Buu seems to be in the area in between, which is what I would call the Perfect Cell Full Power range. I think Cell is somewhere between Super Saiyans and Super Saiyan 2s and I think Initial Fat Buu belongs in there with him and probably Buff Perfect Cell Full Power too.

[Saiga]

First of all, you're wrong, because Vegeta ate a senzu bean, so he was at full power. And they were wrong about Boo, underestimating him. According to AT, Boo's power can't be accurately measured by those sensing him.

[Mjb1985]

No Vegeta said this while he was battle weary. Remember, we are talking about INITIAL Fat Buu. Initial Fat Buu arrival is what causes Goku to stop Vegeta and start talking about how they released Buu.

So both Goku and Vegeta are battle weary when Buu first arrives. Vegeta laughs Buu off, and Goku brings up how Buu's ki is abnormal. Goku senses that the well can go deeper, but Vegeta brushes it off and wants to continue the fight.

Not until Fat Buu powers up for the first time does Vegeta acknowledge Buu as a threat. Then he stops fighting , proceeds to knock out Goku , and take the sensu bean...

Majin Vegeta at full power is already weaker than Fat Buu Power Up 1 , he definitely needs the sensu to even have a chance. Even then, he still thinks he is probably going to die trying to take out Buu.

So instead of being so quick to jump on the gun and say I'm wrong, why don't you lighten up a bit?

[Saiga]

Vegeta being battle weary when he makes that claim doesn't prove Boo must be below his battle weary self. Even if he was right about Boo being "pathetic", that doesn't mean he intends to take him while exhausted. And Goku immediately noticed something was wrong about Boo's ki.

[Mjb1985]

Yep. I mentioned that in my first post. Did you not read the first one I made on the subject? It was rather long, but I get the feeling you rather just argue than have any sort of real debate. Especially looking over your reaction to not knowing when Fat Buu powered up, you seem a bit high strung. Perhaps we can finish this debate another time? Anyway back to my POV on the matter.

I personally think it's possible that Vegeta takes him out right there at that level, I think Goku and Majin Vegeta should be greatly superior to Teen Gohan's power.

Either way, we know Super Saiyan 2 Teen Gohan is superior to Initial Fat Buu by a significant margin, and that's likely going to put him in the PC range as I mentioned anyhow...

[Saiga]

Is there any need to be so insulting? And I don't see how my posts are coming across as high-strung.

And yes, I did read your post. It's mostly just you making assumptions and jumping to conclusions.

Gohan stating that he can win if he puts forth his true power is not a conclusive statement that SS2 Teen Gohan > Fat Boo. That's another assumption.

[Mjb1985]

I don't see how Gohan's statement can mean anything other than that?

Generally when you start off a rebuttal with " Well first of all your wrong " you might rub people the wrong way FYI. I don't think I've been insulting at all, I am just trying to debate with you, I don't want to get into an argument about silly things like this. If you prefer to debate another time that's cool with me, I don't have time for snark and what not.

It's more than just assumptions, it's my point of view on the surrounding events.

[Saiga]

I don't see how Gohan's statement can mean anything other than that?

Generally when you start off a rebuttal with " Well first of all your wrong " you might rub people the wrong way FYI. I don't think I've been insulting at all, I am just trying to debate with you, I don't want to get into an argument about silly things like this. If you prefer to debate another time that's cool with me, I don't have time for snark and what not.

It's more than just assumptions, it's my point of view on the surrounding events.

He's referring to his true power, which more likely refers to the strength he draws from his anger. That would mean SS2 isn't enough to defeat Boo, and that he needs to become enraged so that he can be strong enough.

And I said you were wrong because you were unclear about when you were talking about Vegeta saying that, and made it sound as thought Vegeta was weary when he went into battle with Boo. Either way it shouldn't be offensive.

Things like saying that Majin Vegeta lost an amount of power equal to Super Saiyan 2 Gohan is an example of the assumptions you're making.

[Mjb1985]

Well Vegeta's comments about Initial Fat Buu occurred when he was Battle Weary.

And the other issue is just simple math. It's not really assumption, it's just logically deducing the source material.

If all of Super Saiyan 2 Gohan's power equates to filling up the Buu meter halfway, and Goku fills the other half, it's pretty easy to deduce that Battle Weary Goku , at the time of filling up the meter, would make a chain like this quite factual actually.

SSJ2 Goku - SSJ2 Gohan = Battle Weary SSJ2 Goku


Me equating Goku to Vegeta is hardly a leap as well considering they are equals, and fighting an equal battle, and most likely have equal damage.

There's nothing wrong with making logical , reasonable assumptions from the source material. It's not like I'm just making things up here now.


I feel I was pretty clear about Majin Vegeta's laughable statement. It just appears that you weren't aware of when Vegeta said it more than me not explaining it clearly.

[Saiga]

I know that you were talking about with Vegeta now.

And the problem is assuming that it can be worked out mathematically, especially when the way the energy is gained is different. In Goku's case the energy is gained through damage, while in Gohan's case it's drained from him. So that may account for a difference in how much energy both of them gave.

[Mjb1985]

I don't see anything that suggested that it would be different. Nothing in the story suggests that gaining power from Buu is superior through damage or absorbing it through the pot.

Considering that Pocus , Yakon , and Dabura are all out there without the pot, it doesn't seem that the pot would be superior to just damaging someone by your own hand. Toriyama luckily is one of the simpler writers out there, it's pretty safe to assume that it wouldn't be some insane formula to figure this all out.

[Saiga]

I don't see anything that suggested that it would be different. Nothing in the story suggests that gaining power from Buu is superior through damage or absorbing it through the pot.

Considering that Pocus , Yakon , and Dabura are all out there without the pot, it doesn't seem that the pot would be superior to just damaging someone by your own hand. Toriyama luckily is one of the simpler writers out there, it's pretty safe to assume that it wouldn't be some insane formula to figure this all out.

I'm not saying it has to be different, but I'm saying we can't know for sure how the energy is translated to Boo's revival so formulas like that don't necessarily work.

[Mjb1985]

But your assuming they would be different. When in general, if you were to assume anything, the logical choice would be that the format would be the same or at least similar. Nothing was shown to be a preferred method, and there was nothing in the story that suggested that it was different. I rather assume that it's the same, rather than assume it's different. Sure you can't be 100% sure about it, but it's not a big deal, and we won't get anywhere at all if you take this kind of approach about small matters like this.

[Saiga]

But your assuming they would be different. When in general, if you were to assume anything, the logical choice would be that the format would be the same or at least similar. Nothing was shown to be a preferred method, and there was nothing in the story that suggested that it was different. I rather assume that it's the same, rather than assume it's different. Sure you can't be 100% sure about it, but it's not a big deal, and we won't get anywhere at all if you take this kind of approach about small matters like this.

But I'm not assuming that's actually the case. I'm just saying that's one way that it could be, without us knowing. So using a formula isn't concrete.