I know it could be a mistake, but there isn't much to show it's a mistake. It could also be a retcon.Fox666 wrote:It could be that the mistake is in Darbra profile. Why not? Besides it is nothing but a summary of what happened in the manga, in these cases it would be better looking directly at the manga.
And frankly I don't recommend using the Daizenshuus as a bibles for subjects of dispute.
The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread
Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread
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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread
It's not just the sparks. He has clearly Super Saiyan (Full Power) aura. Don't tell me that's not enough or something, because every Super Saiyan form in the manga has its own aura shape. And his hairstyle doesn't match with his SS2 hairstyle he had in the Tenkaichi Budokai. It matches better with the SS hairstyle he had in the Tenkaichi Budokai. Visually, everything shows us a Super Saiyan, and no statement contradicts it.Saiga wrote:The manga states nothing. There is only a lack of sparks, that's not a statement.
Having a mistake somewhere doesn't mean that it's nowhere valid. Going by that logic, we can't trust the manga either.Daizenshuu 2 states nothing, only implies it by the absence of a + which they forgot for his Ultimate Warrior form. So it's definitely doubtful in terms of accuracy.
It's still an official source.BT3 does state it, but also stats that Appule injured Vegeta. Even without this error I wouldn't put a video game over a guidebook.
Daizenshuu 7 states he used SS2. This is quite simply the clearest statement we've gotten on the subject, and it doesn't immediately contradict itself which lends to it's validity./quote]
How are you so sure that Daizenshuu 7 doesn't have any mistakes?
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread
Actually it's the one with more mistakes than any other.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:How are you so sure that Daizenshuu 7 doesn't have any mistakes?
And there is something that suggests the Daizenshuu 2 is a mistake?Saiga wrote:I know it could be a mistake, but there isn't much to show it's a mistake. It could also be a retcon.
Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread
I'm not. However, the fact that Daizenshuu 2 and BT3 have noticeable errors gives 7 better credibility to me. Unless I actually see some errors in 7, I'm not just going to assume they're there.DBZGTKOSDH wrote: It's not just the sparks. He has clearly Super Saiyan (Full Power) aura. Don't tell me that's not enough or something, because every Super Saiyan form in the manga has its own aura shape. And his hairstyle doesn't match with his SS2 hairstyle he had in the Tenkaichi Budokai. It matches better with the SS hairstyle he had in the Tenkaichi Budokai. Visually, everything shows us a Super Saiyan, and no statement contradicts it.
That isn't a statement. And it just plain doesn't match his Budokai SS1 hairstyle. This is just going to be one of those agree to disagree things.
I'm not saying it's automatically invalid because of one mistake. I'm saying that the mistake shows that it should be taken with a grain of salt instead of trusted unquestionably.Having a mistake somewhere doesn't mean that it's nowhere valid. Going by that logic, we can't trust the manga either.
Not a very reliable one at that.It's still an official source.
How are you so sure that Daizenshuu 7 doesn't have any mistakes?
@Fox Daizenshuu 2 lacks the + after the volume where Gohan's Ultimate warrior state debuts, even though he appears in the next volume like that as well.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread
Daizenshuu 7 has plenty of erros, like saying that Tenshinhan fought No.19. It is not perfect.
Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread
Fair enough, I never tried to claim it was perfect.Fox666 wrote:Daizenshuu 7 has plenty of erros, like saying that Tenshinhan fought No.19. It is not perfect.
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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread
But you claimed that it was trustworthy, unlike Daizenshuu 2 which had errors.Saiga wrote:Fair enough, I never tried to claim it was perfect.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread
There's a difference. The reason I don't find trustworthy is because it made an error over the very thing we are talking about.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:But you claimed that it was trustworthy, unlike Daizenshuu 2 which had errors.Saiga wrote:Fair enough, I never tried to claim it was perfect.
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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread
How is Ultimate Gohan in Volume 42 related to any of this?Saiga wrote:There's a difference. The reason I don't find trustworthy is because it made an error over the very thing we are talking about.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread
I think it's obvious how: In the same section that it implies teen Gohan didn't use SS2 after the volume it debuted in, they do the same for his Ultimate form which is clearly not true. And because of that, I wouldn't be so quick to believe it implying the same thing about his SS2 form.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:How is Ultimate Gohan in Volume 42 related to any of this?Saiga wrote:There's a difference. The reason I don't find trustworthy is because it made an error over the very thing we are talking about.
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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread
So, if an error was found in the "Character Dictionary" section, wouldn't this make the SS2 statement less trustworthy?
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread
Less trustworthy, yet still more than Daizenshuu 2, especially given that Daizenshuu 2 isn't even a direct statement.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:So, if an error was found in the "Character Dictionary" section, wouldn't this make the SS2 statement less trustworthy?
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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread
If the errors are more than 2? And don't forget that in Daizenshuu 2, they just forgot to add a "+".Saiga wrote:Less trustworthy, yet still more than Daizenshuu 2, especially given that Daizenshuu 2 isn't even a direct statement.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread
Daizenshuu 2's error is much more relevant though. If they forgot to add a + to Ultimate Gohan's debut, it's quite possible they did the same for SS2.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:If the errors are more than 2? And don't forget that in Daizenshuu 2, they just forgot to add a "+".Saiga wrote:Less trustworthy, yet still more than Daizenshuu 2, especially given that Daizenshuu 2 isn't even a direct statement.
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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread
But why would Daizenshuu 2 should have mentioned Gohan being SS2 when he doesn't appear like that? Why did Daizenshuu 7 mentioned Gohan being SS2? What did the writers have in their minds? And ignoring everything else except the manga, why do you think Gohan was Super Saiyan 2?
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread
1) So that people would know that he was.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:But why would Daizenshuu 2 should have mentioned Gohan being SS2 when he doesn't appear like that? Why did Daizenshuu 7 mentioned Gohan being SS2? What did the writers have in their minds? And ignoring everything else except the manga, why do you think Gohan was Super Saiyan 2?
2) So that people would know that he was.
3) I shouldn't have to ignore anything when Daizenshuu 7 clearly says that he was a SS2. But if I did, it would be the fact that he's fighting mostly evenly with Dabra, who is first stated to be on par with Cell and then later stated to be stronger than first thought.
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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread
That's a better reason. Now wait, I just had a mind fuck.Saiga wrote:it would be the fact that he's fighting mostly evenly with Dabra, who is first stated to be on par with Cell and then later stated to be stronger than first thought.
Vegeta noticed that Gohan was weaker than he was (because he hadn't been training, he doesn't have the same battle power as when he defeated Cell), and Gohan was trying to gain power from his anger to destroy Boo's Egg, but he couldn't (Because he couldn't gain power from anger)...!!! Oh god... Daizenshuu 2 has him Super Saiyan 2 too!Daizenshuu 2 wrote:HIGH SCHOOL ERA
SUPER SAIYAN 2
First Appears: Vol. 37
During the Tenkaichi Budoukai he transforms at Kibito's request. Because he couldn't gain power from anger and because he hadn't been training, he doesn't have the same battle power as when he defeated Cell.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Piccolo Daimao
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread
Oh, I meant to say Gokuu can't use Kaiouken here.dprez wrote:Kuririn, with his unlock potential boost, should be able to surpass 120,000 during those three years. Yamucha trained in ten times earth's gravity under one of the greatest martial arts master in the Other World. Goku would get blitzed fast, but with his kaioken, the humans don't stand a chance.Piccolo Daimao wrote:Kuririn and Yamcha (Cell arc) vs. Son Gokuu (against Ginyuu)
If Yamcha's able to stall Gokuu for long enough, Kuririn could pull off a Kienzan that'd slice Gokuu if he didn't dodge. But with Gokuu's speed, it's a slim chance.
Yeah, it is a silly one, and you're definitely not going to see anything new here. You don't seem to understand just how many times we've been here. So either make a new thread or drop the subject before you derail this thread any further. Please, I'm begging you.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:That's what I'm looking for in this discussion. I know it's a silly one, I just want to see what others think about this, why are they thinking this. Of course, we could make a new thread (or rather, a new copy, since it's been discussed a million times).VegettoEX wrote:Even if it's an older conversation that we've tossed around a million times, every so often someone points out something new and I sit there going, "holy crap!" That's enough to justify it. I've re-considered viewpoints.
Holden Caulfield in [b][i]The Catcher in the Rye[/i][/b] wrote:I hope to hell when I do die somebody has sense enough to just dump me in the river or something. Anything except sticking me in a goddam cemetery. People coming and putting a bunch of flowers on your stomach on Sunday, and all that crap. Who wants flowers when you're dead? Nobody.
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Super Saiyan Turlast x4
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread
I'd give that to Krillin and Yamcha. I don't think the humans are that powerful, but I still see them well above 90,000 by the Cell saga.
"First I whip it out! Then I thrust it! With great force! Every angle...! It penetrates! Until...! With great strength...! I... ram it in! In the end... We are all satisfied... And you are set free...!" ~Dante~
Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread
Agreed. I should've figured this was Goku without Kaioken, with it is just not fair.Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:I'd give that to Krillin and Yamcha. I don't think the humans are that powerful, but I still see them well above 90,000 by the Cell saga.
Vegeta and Goku ( post-Zenkai ), vs. Monster Zarbon
I figure Goku is around 10,000, maybe a little higher after eating the senzu. We know Vegeta is at 24,000, and monster Zarbon is probably around 30,000. Kaioken x3 Goku imo, would be about equal with Monster Zarbon, and with Vegeta's help, I believe the saiyans have a decent chance of winning if they can work together. Of course, Kaioken x4 Goku would probably solo if he can last. Zarbon in his monster form seams pretty durable. Although, Vegeta wasn't at 40,000 when he defeated Monster Zarbon, so he'd probably be crushed by a Kaioken x4 Goku.
I just want to add, I think its pretty damn awesome that even a mere 10,000 pre-gravity training Son Goku, can use the Kaioken technique and fight universally powerful guys like the Ginyu Force equally.
- I'll just say, I honestly do not understand why people believe Gohan MUST BE A SSJ2!!! He is clearly not the same as Goku and Vegeta are ONE PAGE AWAY!! Chapter 265. Manga supersedes all. I suppose different peoples different interpretations take over this debate, although for me, it could barely be more obvious....