Dragon Ball (Z) Anime

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Nex Carnifex
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Re: Dragon Ball (Z) Anime

Post by Nex Carnifex » Wed Jul 18, 2012 7:47 pm

matt0044 wrote:
Nex Carnifex wrote:I'd say the manga if I could only find a good way to actually read it, I gave up on Viz after reading how much censorship they did and how much the dialogue was changed to make it more lame and child friendly. The H-word? Seriously?
I don't see much censorship. I mean, there's blood, impalement and the like. Plus, death is mentioned plenty of times and there's swearing here in there. Dragon Ball even has fanservice at a T rating. Granted, (the H-word)'s still there but I can look past it. At least, the SJ versions I grew up with since Middle School.
There's much more, I don't feel like listing it out so here's a quote:
"Gohan was circumcized in DBZ Vol. 2 after changing back from the Great Ape form. The Ginyu Special Corps are playing "Roshambo" when they're actually playing Janken (Viz didn't even probably know what Roshambo was). The term Jinzoningen means "Man-made" or "Artificial Human." They went for the Android route and only explained #17 and #18 as being Cyborgs in the Shonen Jump pages. The characters are now shaking a fist at Cell on a chapter cover page, rather than flipping him the bird. Dialogue has been changed for the worse (Gohan's "What of it?" in regards to Cell demonstrating his full power and asking what he thinks of it was changed to a large font "Whoopee." to fill the word bubble). #17 holding a gun to a man's head was edited so that he no longer held a gun (ala YGO pointing style). Mr. Satan became Hercule. Majin Buu became Boo the Djinn or Djinn Boo. Satan City (which is called Hercule City in the cut dub of the anime) is named Herculopolis."

And going through the uncensored pages online I see a ton of stuff that was definitely censored yet adds so much, like Buu doing his little middle finger dance. In Dragon Ball when Piccolo Daimo is slowely crushing Tenshinhan's head its much less apparent in the viz version as it is uncensored, they changed it around so Goku is answering Piccolo's question instead of reacting to Tenshinhan's torture. Also the translation is downright stupid. Of course they get the basic story across but the change up the dialogue so much like they think somehow the original script wasn't good enough that they could do better or maybe they think little kids wanted something dumbed down, whatever it is it isn't very accurate, the overuse of the word 'phooey' in place of something more appropriate like 'damn' is also annoying in Dragon Ball. Piccolo is a good example, he talks in Shakespearean rhymes for some reason, its stupid and changes his character. Just look at Goku's first line in the manga... Another example is some stupid reference about the Kamehameha being a Hawaiian king or another one is when Bulma shoots Goku he says something different than "my body is stronger than stainless steel". Those are some I remember but its pretty much the entire manga. Then black face is gone, nudity gone, minimal cursing, middle fingers gone, implications missing, everything is dumbed down including language, etc. They took it and tried to make it less edgy, they succeed. I don't understand why they have a T+ rating if they just take a T+ manga and make it all ages, do kids care these days? I know I never did. Viz is lame, that is all.

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Re: Dragon Ball (Z) Anime

Post by matt0044 » Wed Jul 18, 2012 7:58 pm

^Eh, I don't mind. Maybe I don't have these hard feelings because I got into Dragon Ball thanks to it and the changes were harmless. Plus, I'm not one to let things like these get to me depending on the circumstances. We still could've done without them but whatever. Plus, compared to FUNi/Ocean/Saban dub for the anime (before Kai), Viz was fine.

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Re: Dragon Ball (Z) Anime

Post by Nex Carnifex » Wed Jul 18, 2012 8:05 pm

I probably wouldn't have realized how much it was butchered or cared for that matter if I hadn't researched about it or seen the uncut anime with the subtitles but I did and yeah viz pretty much took Dragon Ball and did what funimation did to the original anime, replaced the tone and everything.

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Re: Dragon Ball (Z) Anime

Post by matt0044 » Wed Jul 18, 2012 8:08 pm

Nex Carnifex wrote:I probably wouldn't have realized how much it was butchered or cared for that matter if I hadn't researched about it or seen the uncut anime with the subtitles but I did and yeah viz pretty much took Dragon Ball and did what funimation did to the original anime, replaced the tone and everything.
Quite frankly, Viz's changes have nothing on FUNi/Ocean's. Viz kept the tone and everything most of the time when it was appropriate at least 90% of the time unlike when FUNi put in humor (intentional or not) everywhere to keep the kiddies laughing. I consider Viz's Manga translation to be the much lesser of two evils in my opinion. Plus, the cheesy humor works for Dragon Ball which today is considered cheesy by Anime standards. Unlike FUNi, Viz doesn't go overboard in my opinion. I acknowledge it's flaws though.

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Re: Dragon Ball (Z) Anime

Post by Nex Carnifex » Wed Jul 18, 2012 8:19 pm

matt0044 wrote:
Nex Carnifex wrote:I probably wouldn't have realized how much it was butchered or cared for that matter if I hadn't researched about it or seen the uncut anime with the subtitles but I did and yeah viz pretty much took Dragon Ball and did what funimation did to the original anime, replaced the tone and everything.
Quite frankly, Viz's changes have nothing on FUNi/Ocean. I conducer their Manga translation to be the much lesser of two evils in my opinion.
I'm not necessarily talking about violence and such just that they had to add their own twists to everything and dumb things down for their probably non-existent 10 year old demographic, and then there was the censorship. It just doesn't feel how Dragon Ball should feel and is certainly far from the original, I've compared more faithful translations the viz is dumbed down a lot. At least funimation provided us with uncut collections with accurate translations that didn't try to mix things around and make them weird or less offensive. Yeah they kept the blood for the most part, that's cool, but that's kind of expected its not like these are going on tv like the funimation dub, but then why ruin everything else? I'd say viz is the greater of evils, because they can't even give the actual fans the real deal, we're stuck with the all ages rendition.

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Re: Dragon Ball (Z) Anime

Post by Bussani » Wed Jul 18, 2012 8:40 pm

Nex Carnifex wrote:The Ginyu Special Corps are playing "Roshambo" when they're actually playing Janken (Viz didn't even probably know what Roshambo was).
Roshambo and janken are the same thing.
The term Jinzoningen means "Man-made" or "Artificial Human." They went for the Android route and only explained #17 and #18 as being Cyborgs in the Shonen Jump pages.
"Artificial human" and "android" are the same thing. Cyborgs are usually called something else in Japanese ("Kaizoningen"). Even in the Japanese version of the manga it's only explained that they're really cyborgs in a title page, and at one point in the Buu saga, I think. Japanese fans have questioned it as much as we have. Basically, you're faulting Viz for translating things accurately here.
Majin Buu became Boo the Djinn or Djinn Boo.
A majin and a djinn are practically the same thing. Case in point, the genie from the story of Aladdin (including the Disney version) is called a majin in Japanese.

Edit: Also, you say nudity has been removed, but it really depends on which versions you own. Most of mine have the nudity left in.

Basically, Viz's release isn't perfect, but I a) don't think it's as bad as you make out, and b) am probably not as bothered by the small stuff as you are.
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Re: Dragon Ball (Z) Anime

Post by matt0044 » Wed Jul 18, 2012 8:51 pm

Bussani wrote: Basically, Viz's release isn't perfect, but I a) don't think it's as bad as you make out, and b) am probably not as bothered by the small stuff as you are.
This. I don't love Viz they're not bad for an official release so I'm not going to pull too many hairs over the flaws. Maybe roll my eyes here and there.

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Re: Dragon Ball (Z) Anime

Post by dprez » Wed Jul 18, 2012 8:55 pm

Whenever I read Hercule, I think Satan. Same with Vegerot, Kakarott, and Ssj2 Gohan's "Whoopie!"

It doesn't bother me. I just look past it, I more or less know what they are really saying anyway. Same with Viz's little changes to One Piece. I just look past it. Not darn but damn, not shoot but shit, not jerk but bastard, and so on... That's what I read in my head, so it doesn't ruin the experience for me.

Of course I wish they were 100% faithful when it comes to the dialogue, but with One Piece all art is the same, minus the few swastika looking Buddhism tattoos. Viz may have altered the artwork for Dragon Ball here and there, but not so much that it ever bothered me.

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Re: Dragon Ball (Z) Anime

Post by Nex Carnifex » Wed Jul 18, 2012 9:03 pm

Bussani wrote:
Nex Carnifex wrote:The Ginyu Special Corps are playing "Roshambo" when they're actually playing Janken (Viz didn't even probably know what Roshambo was).
Roshambo and janken are the same thing.
The term Jinzoningen means "Man-made" or "Artificial Human." They went for the Android route and only explained #17 and #18 as being Cyborgs in the Shonen Jump pages.
"Artificial human" and "android" are the same thing. Cyborgs are usually called something else in Japanese ("Kaizoningen"). Even in the Japanese version of the manga it's only explained that they're really cyborgs in a title page, and at one point in the Buu saga, I think. Japanese fans have questioned it as much as we have. Basically, you're faulting Viz for translating things accurately here.
Majin Buu became Boo the Djinn or Djinn Boo.
A majin and a djinn are practically the same thing. Case in point, the genie from the story of Aladdin (including the Disney version) is called a majin in Japanese.

Edit: Also, you say nudity has been removed, but it really depends on which versions you own. Most of mine have the nudity left in.

Basically, Viz's release isn't perfect, but I a) don't think it's as bad as you make out, and b) am probably not as bothered by the small stuff as you are.
Janken is slightly different in that its rock paper scissors played over high stakes but roshambo can also mean kicking each other in the balls I think that's why he said viz didn't know what it was, but I just copied someones post, and he's right the androids aren't androids they are cyborgs because they aren't fully robotic.

Also Majin Buu is definitely not a genie and Djinn doesn't even go with the Majin M on his belt so it just is really inconsistent. And I have 2 with nudity, Dragon Ball 1 and 2. But all that stuff is just scratching the surface anyway, I can't stand how they changed the dialogue so much from the original and I get really pissed off knowing a certain panel has been censored and the language has been dumbed down I just can't enjoy it if its not in its original form, it also takes away a lot of Akira's profane humor with the censorship. They really need to just translate the japanese word for word and release and uncensored version for those who don't want a butchered manga, not censoring something isn't fan service releasing the actual manga is fan service. Its not just the small stuff I'm bothered by because most of it besides the blood is messed up.

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Re: Dragon Ball (Z) Anime

Post by matt0044 » Wed Jul 18, 2012 9:11 pm

Translating the JPN dialogue can result in clunky dialogue at times which can be a bit off-putting. I can understand if the adaptor rewords the dialogue so what's said stay the same in a different language but in a more fluent way. For jokes, I implore them to change them so non-Japanese readers can laugh since you gotta sell it as an action comedy somehow.

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Re: Dragon Ball (Z) Anime

Post by Nex Carnifex » Wed Jul 18, 2012 9:17 pm

matt0044 wrote:Translating the JPN dialogue can result in clunky dialogue at times which can be a bit off-putting. I can understand if the adaptor rewords the dialogue so what's said stay the same in a different language but in a more fluent way. For jokes, I implore them to change them so non-Japanese readers can laugh since you gotta sell it as an action comedy somehow.
Well in my opinion the more raw faithful translations I've read are leagues more fluent and more hilarious, if it says something, why not just rearrange it so it makes sense in english instead of completely saying something else? Just give me toriyama's manga.

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Re: Dragon Ball (Z) Anime

Post by Gaffer Tape » Wed Jul 18, 2012 9:21 pm

Nex Carnifex wrote:Janken is slightly different in that its rock paper scissors played over high stakes but roshambo can also mean kicking each other in the balls I think that's why he said viz didn't know what it was
Roshambo existed long before South Park appropriated the term to refer to its ball-kicking game. Viz doesn't have to know about an alternate definition for the word to still be appropriate in a rock-paper-scissors context.
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Re: Dragon Ball (Z) Anime

Post by Nex Carnifex » Wed Jul 18, 2012 9:22 pm

Gaffer Tape wrote:
Nex Carnifex wrote:Janken is slightly different in that its rock paper scissors played over high stakes but roshambo can also mean kicking each other in the balls I think that's why he said viz didn't know what it was
Roshambo existed long before South Park appropriated the term to refer to its ball-kicking game. Viz doesn't have to know about an alternate definition for the word to still be appropriate in a rock-paper-scissors context.
I know but I think that's what the quoted person confused it with.

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Re: Dragon Ball (Z) Anime

Post by Bussani » Wed Jul 18, 2012 9:24 pm

Nex Carnifex wrote:Janken is slightly different in that its rock paper scissors played over high stakes
Huh?
but roshambo can also mean kicking each other in the balls
That's a South Park joke for crying out loud. The joke is that kicking each other in the balls isn't what roshambo is.
he's right the androids aren't androids they are cyborgs because they aren't fully robotic.
Yes, and they're not Jinzoningen, either: they're Kaizoningen. That was my point. Viz's translation is accurate here and it's Gero/Toriyama who were using the terms oddly.
Also Majin Buu is definitely not a genie and Djinn doesn't even go with the Majin M on his belt so it just is really inconsistent.
A Djinn is a magical being with supernatural powers. A Majin is a magical being with supernatural powers. Not all Djinn live in magic lamps and grant wishes, you know. And I don't think the "M" stands for Majin, so I don't think it's inconsistent.
They really need to just translate the japanese word for word and release and uncensored version for those who don't want a butchered manga, not censoring something isn't fan service releasing the actual manga is fan service. Its not just the small stuff I'm bothered by because most of it besides the blood is messed up.
I, too, would like a better release, but I don't think the one we have is bad enough to call it "butchered", personally.
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Re: Dragon Ball (Z) Anime

Post by Hellspawn28 » Wed Jul 18, 2012 10:03 pm

Saiga wrote:I really dislike the anime. Can't watch it any more. The pacing is god awful and they include some terrible things in filler.
That's how I feel now these days. Unless it's Kai, I don't watch the DBZ anime unless I'm bored and I feel like watching a fight scene on Youtube.
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Re: Dragon Ball (Z) Anime

Post by perucho1990 » Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:24 am

The manga was good up to the end of the Freeza Saga. After that the anime was better, due to the fights not being short like in the manga and the moments having better impact/more memorable.

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Re: Dragon Ball (Z) Anime

Post by Piccolo Daimao » Thu Jul 19, 2012 10:00 am

Bussani wrote:
Nex Carnifex wrote:Also Majin Buu is definitely not a genie and Djinn doesn't even go with the Majin M on his belt so it just is really inconsistent.
A Djinn is a magical being with supernatural powers. A Majin is a magical being with supernatural powers. Not all Djinn live in magic lamps and grant wishes, you know. And I don't think the "M" stands for Majin, so I don't think it's inconsistent.
It was never even stated whether or not the "M" on Bobbodi's minions' heads and Boo's belt stood for anything in the first place, and even if it did, it could easily stand for "Madoushi" (which is what Bobbodi is = "Madoushi" means "mage" or "warlock") or just be an alien or demonic symbol that happens to bear resemblance to "M", like how Superman's crest happens to bear resemblance to the English "S".

Oh, and "Majin Vegeta" was a fan/dub term. In the Daizenshuu, he's named "Maouji Vegeta", meaning "Demon Prince Vegeta".

Overall, the Viz translation really isn't as bad as you're making it out to be, Nex Carnifex. I know you might be a purist, but a few mistakes here and there doesn't tarnish the whole product. A while ago, Herms gave it 7/10 in terms of accuracy. So yeah, still room for improvement, but you can still read the thing and get the overall tone without obsessing over them leaving out the line where Vegeta says Oozaru multiplies a Saiyan's power by 10. Either way, it's nowhere near FUNimation's treatment (although, I remember Viz tried a bit too hard to show that they were "mature and uncensored!" when they incorrectly began referring to the whole afterlife as "Hell" in their second DBZ volume).
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Re: Dragon Ball (Z) Anime

Post by Eight-Star Dragon » Thu Jul 19, 2012 12:10 pm

Bussani wrote: Yes, and they're not Jinzoningen, either: they're Kaizoningen. That was my point. Viz's translation is accurate here and it's Gero/Toriyama who were using the terms oddly.
Androids/Articifical Humans might be an odd term, but I'd rather that than cyborgs. The fully robotic 16 and 19 could still kinda fall under the cyborg label but being fully robotic that term wouldn't be the best way to describe them.
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Re: Dragon Ball (Z) Anime

Post by Bussani » Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:07 pm

Eight-Star Dragon wrote:Androids/Articifical Humans might be an odd term, but I'd rather that than cyborgs. The fully robotic 16 and 19 could still kinda fall under the cyborg label but I'd still rather not see that term used to describe them.
Yeah, I mean, #16 definitely isn't a cyborg. Some people think that they should call them different things depending on what they are, but that's just not how Gero did it. He called them all androids for whatever reason.
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Re: Dragon Ball (Z) Anime

Post by Saiga » Thu Jul 19, 2012 9:47 pm

Considering that #8 (according to the anime) and #16 are both fully mechanical with no human base, 17 and 18 could have been the first cyborgs that Gero made, which is why they are collectively called Androids/Jinzoningen.
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