The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[Piccolo Daimao]

Super Saiyan Gokuu (Cell Games) vs. 7 Cell Juniors

I think that, if he uses some strategy, he'd be strong enough to defeat them. He could even just Shunkan-Idou Kamehameha all of them, one-by-one. I doubt they'd be smart nor fast enough to dodge it.

Super Saiyan Grade III Trunks (after 1st RoSaT, without speed loss) vs. 7 Cell Juniors

I have him marginally weaker than each of the Cell Juniors here, so they'd gang up and slaughter him.

SS Gokuu, SS Vegeta, SS Trunks, Piccolo (all fresh in Cell arc, before Piccolo merges with Kami) vs. Android #16

I don't think they have a chance. #16's just too strong for all of them.

All 6 Saibamen vs. Raditz

Raditz should be able to bust islands with ease, and I doubt the Saibamen, even though they are equal to Raditz in power, are capable of such an attack. He could get jumped, or manage to do something similar to what Kuririn did.

Each of the Saibaimen technically aren't equal to Raditz; they just rival him. They're 1,200 to his 1,500.

Nappa's line on the Saibaimen's strength is often translated as saying that they are "equal" to Raditz. While the verb hitteki suru can be translated as "equal", it doesn't mean equal in any sort of mathematical sense, but just that something is roughly on par with something else. In his memo to the anime staff published in the Dragon Ball Z Anime Special, Toriyama confirmed that the Saibaimen's battle power is inferior to Radtiz's, saying "But their battle power is considerably high, at a level slightly inferior to Raditz" (しかし戦闘力はかなり高くラディッツより少し劣る程度). Also, Nappa mentions that the Saibaimen rival Raditz "going just by power", so it seems that Raditz's greater intelligence gives him something of an edge over the Saibaimen, who are barely smart enough to follow simple orders.

So I'd say that Raditz would be able to defeat a Saibaimen one-on-one, but with all six of them ganging up on him, he'd probably be defeated. Even if he managed to defeat four or five of them (I doubt he has the skill to pull off an attack like Kuririn - who, even then, missed one; he can't even control his ki, nor train his tail like the even weaker Gokuu did), one of them could take him off-guard and self-destruct on him, like what actually happened to Yamcha (who, going by the Daizenshuu BPs, was only marginally weaker than Raditz when just one played dead and self-destructed before he could escape).

[Kaboom]

Yeah, I think it's best off simplified as "the average Namekian is stronger than the average Saiyan."

Even further, the super-powerful "true" Warrior-types like Nail are even stronger than the cream-of-the-crop Saiyan royalty like Vegeta.

All 6 Saibamen vs. Raditz

The Saibaimen are behind him in power, but I don't think Raditz has enough of a lead to take on all 6 at once, or the skill to make up for that power gap. Kuririn took out multiple Saibaimen with one big attack, but he was not only more powerful than Raditz by then, but also has an edge when it comes to amplifying ki for big attacks and what-not.

So... Raditz would probably emerge victorious over 3 or 4 Saibaimen at once... but not all 6. I think that's a bit more than he can handle simultaneously.

Super Saiyan Gokuu (Cell Games) vs. 7 Cell Juniors

Goku's a good chunk stronger than any of the Cell Juniors individually. But I think we'd run into a situation similar to Raditz vs the Saibaimen... he's not far enough ahead of them to be able to handle all 7 of them ganging up on him.

Super Saiyan Grade III Trunks (without speed loss) vs. 7 Cell Juniors

In a nutshell, I usually consider Trunks at the Cell Games to have caught up to his prior "stronger than Cell but not really" Grade 3 power, except by abandoning the Grades 2 for mastering and working within Super Saiyan 1 like Goku and Gohan did. So he fares no better against a single Cell Junior than he actually did at the Cell Games. All 7 going at him at once means he's helpless and dead.

SS Gokuu, SS Vegeta, SS Trunks, Piccolo (all fresh in Android arc, before Piccolo merges with Kami) vs. Android #16

Yeah... This essentially becomes a repeat of them all trying to fight Super 13 in Movie 7.

Plot-wise, 16 would be reluctant to kill anyone but Goku, but would still go through the others if they got in his way.

[Fox666]

Raditz would not manage to survive against a single Saibaiman. He would do even worse than Yamcha since he can't sense Ki, and would die in a self-destruction the same way. Let alone fighting against multiple Saibaiman.

I don't think Cell himself can defeat all of the Cell Juniors, so Goku wouldn't either.

[mysticboy]

Piccolo (Movie 3) vs. Vegeta (Saiyan saga)

[Kaboom]

Piccolo (Movie 3) vs. Vegeta (Saiyan saga)

18,000 Vs 18,000... could go either way. Both of them are very skilled fighters. It'd be a clash between Piccolo's special moves and abilities and Vegeta's tenacity and "brute force" combat style.

[Mystic Gohan]

@Piccolo Daimao. I dont see how Raditz being at 1500 to the Saibamens 1200 makes them rivalling. Cui got one shotted by Vegeta with a 75% gap and thats only 5% more than this one.

[Kaboom]

Performances and power gaps aren't consistent. The Kwi-Vegeta gap isn't much different from the one between 100% Freeza and Super Saiyan Goku, yet Freeza put up an admirable fight in that case.

[Mystic Gohan]

Performances and power gaps aren't consistent. The Kwi-Vegeta gap isn't much different from the one between 100% Freeza and Super Saiyan Goku, yet Freeza put up an admirable fight.

But that's just the thing. That gap makes no sense with what we are given in the manga. Better to disregard guidebook numbers that contradict the manga than try and say that the gaps make no sense.

[Kaboom]

Labeling the gaps as "making no sense" is a highly subjective assumption to begin with. Power differences are only one aspect of a battle. Other elements like mentality, skill, field advantage, senses, speed or defense, and so forth, can also greatly affect how evenly-matched a fight ends up.

Fantasy combat can't be reduced to just a math equation.

[Mystic Gohan]

Labeling the gaps as "making no sense" is a highly subjective assumption to begin with. Power differences are only one aspect of a battle. Other elements like mentality, skill, field advantage, senses, speed or defense, and so forth, can also greatly affect how evenly-matched a fight ends up.

Fantasy combat can't be reduced to just a math equation.

Sure it can't but we don't know how any of those effects a match really. It's all conjecture. We do however know how power affects a battle and we do know that a 1.33x gap enables you to stomp your opponent. So wouldn't it be better to base your argument off of what we do know from the manga, then to try and use IMO faulty numbers and try and use information that we have no information about to justify them?

[Fox666]

and we do know that a 1.33x gap enables you to stomp your opponent

No we don't. The series is widely inconsistent regarding how much is necessary for rendering the opponent defenseless.

And frankly there may not be anything wrong with it. The fans often attempt to create "formulas" for battle powers, but the series never actually followed such strict rules.

[Mystic Gohan]

Well we have seen 2 instances where a 1.33x gap dominated their opponents. KK x 3 Goku vs Vegeta and Vegeta vs Cui. Seems pretty consistent to me. Plus battle powers stop after the Freeza Saga anyway. Since we have no PL's to base Cell and Buu saga off of, we might as well use the Freeza gaps. It's better than nothing.

[Kaboom]

You're still placing too much importance on precise power gaps, which is something the series never did. It'd be best to say that with a such-and-such gap, you CAN easily defeat your opponent, but not that you automatically will. It all depends on if other factors enable your opponent to put up a good enough fight. And those other factors can be numerous.

There are trends, yes, but there's no exact precision or rules for it. I mean, what's the cutoff point between "guaranteed ownage" and "can put up a fight," then? Dodoria and Zarbon were each stronger than Kwi but Vegeta still kicked their butts one-on-one, too. If you take that as such a strict indication of power gaps, then what's the exact minimum to be able to put up a fight or have a chance of winning? Something like being only 10% weaker or less than your opponent?

I'll say it once more for good measure: power gaps are inconsistent. Use whatever set rules you want for making up your own power levels, but that's not legit grounds to invalidate the official ones.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I think Vegeta would likely beat Piccolo, but I could see it being a long, drawn out fight.

"We Saiyans can't be reduced to numbers." -Vegeta

[Mystic Gohan]

I'm not quite sure what you are arguing. Basically, your saying that a power gap doesn't determine a fight, but it can. Freeza and Goku, a 20% gap between the according to the Daizenshuu. So what stuff in a battle made that fight seem close despite the power difference? Freeza's superior skill? doubt it. His ki sensing? can't. His failing stamina?

[Kaboom]

I'm not quite sure what you are arguing. Basically, you're saying that a power gap doesn't determine a fight, but it can.

I'm saying it's not the ONLY thing that determines a fight. It's not as simple as, "oh, well, I'm 1.25 times as strong as you, so I'm going to automatically win, no matter what."

Freeza and Goku, a 20% gap between the according to the Daizenshuu. So what stuff in a battle made that fight seem close despite the power difference? Freeza's superior skill? doubt it. His ki sensing? can't. His failing stamina?

- Mentality: Freeza keeping his cool and remaining confident, instead of freaking out and getting desperate unlike Kwi or Dodoria against Vegeta.
- Skill: Freeza being a generally much more capable fighter than his easily-pwned underlings. He has lots of variety in his attacks, seemingly much better skills of perception despite being unable to sense ki naturally, and admirable ki control (and thus his attacks likely pack a better punch because of it).
- Circumstances: Battle-lusted Super Saiyan Goku wanting a good fight out of Freeza, likely causing him to pull his own punches a bit. It wasn't until later in the fight, when Freeza ki drain began severely affecting his performance, that Goku decided it wasn't worth the effort anymore.

Numbers are not the only thing that matter in a fight. That would be... well, pretty lame.

[Mystic Gohan]

Mentality: Freeza most certainly does not keep his cool. He tried blowing up the planet when Goku started beating him. Dodoria knew he was going to lose, because his PL was lower. Mindset is different than mentality. If you think you are going to lose, you're gonna lose a lot of the times.
Skillset: Freeza lets his minions do all his dirty work for him. I doubt the guy has ever had to lift the finger his whole life. Either way, he was being bested by Goku initially despite a power advantage.
Edit- So what you're saying is that at the end of the fight, Goku had larger than a 20% power advantage over Freeza due to power he lost because of strain?

[Kaboom]

Take the explanation or leave it, but the fact remains regardless that battles aren't determined strictly by numbers. Thus official numbers cannot be legitimately written away or defamed as "not making sense" just by virtue of not fitting a random fan's narrow preconceptions about minimum power gaps.

Now, I think we've gotten a little too far off-topic with this. Partially my fault for getting roped in.

[Fox666]

Well we have seen 2 instances where a 1.33x gap dominated their opponents. KK x 3 Goku vs Vegeta and Vegeta vs Cui. Seems pretty consistent to me. Plus battle powers stop after the Freeza Saga anyway. Since we have no PL's to base Cell and Buu saga off of, we might as well use the Freeza gaps. It's better than nothing.

That's a terrible example. Goku was stronger than Vegeta, but Vegeta managed to withstand all the damage and tried to counter-attack, while Kyui was just annihilated instantly by a simply Kiai attack from the fingertip. On top of that the difference was smaller than it was beetween Vegeta and Goku, since Goku actually was over 24,000.

And what about Dodoria? According to the manga he was significantly higher than 18,000 (i.e. 22,000 going by the Daizenshuu). And he was reduced to dust when Vegeta fired the most mediocre Ki attack possible. Why Goku couldn't do the same to Vegeta?

[mysticboy]

Bardock and his team vs. Planet Namek
How long will it take them to vacate the planet?

Conditions:
Bardock and crew survived and received zenkais after Dodoria's attack
Nail is not on Namek