Which Ending Do You Prefer: Z's Ending or GT's Ending?

[johnboy1]

I completely disagree, because GT goes out of its way to force everybody else into uselessness so they have to rely on ~goku~.

The way Z ended, Goku was completely outclassed by Gohan and Gotenks, and Uub has promise of equalling or exceeding SS3 Goku. GT begins and Gohan is stripped of his mystic powerup, Gotenks is mentioned once and discarded, and Uub does so little he's barely in it. Even Vegeta, Goku's direct equal in the Buu arc, only exists to give heroic statements and then get beaten the fuck down so he can stare into the divine nuts of Godku.

So no, GT, you don't get any credit for bitching at the characters for doing what you forced them into doing.

Who was it who had to pull everyone's asses out of the fire with Buu, again? It sure as Hell wasn't Gohan, who got one easy battle before being immediately curbstomped by the villain's next form. Nor was it Gotenks, who got an admittedly awesome fight before getting permanently sidelined by a cheap shot. Meanwhile, Vegeta's job has always been to get his ass kicked while Goku is otherwise indisposed. This pattern was set long before GT ever aired. Hell, in the original DB, Goku is directly responsible for the defeat of Pilaf (twice), the Red Ribbon Army, Piccolo the elder AND Piccolo the younger. Then he took out Freeza and Buu in Z, the latter of which was done after the next generation was supposed to be taking center stage. And let's not forget Aka and at least 13 of the 18 movie villains thus far*, with another one probably on the way.

Vegeta and Cell are literally the only major victories that are not directly attributable to Goku, and even then he made a rather significant contribution to the former. The takeaway message of the entire franchise has been that these morons can't breathe without Goku being there to compress their lungs, which is why him leaving for good is such a big deal.

*Possibly 14, depending on whether you count Gogeta's victory in Z movie 12. He was also part of the collective death-blow to Hatchiyack.

[Cipher]

I completely disagree, because GT goes out of its way to force everybody else into uselessness so they have to rely on ~goku~ ...

So no, GT, you don't get any credit for bitching at the characters for doing what you forced them into doing.

That's a fair point. The Goku bit was a late addition to the post, and very secondary to the Dragon Balls. I suppose, if nothing else, at least it addresses an internal problem.

I don't see what's wrong with that, though (and I like both endings for different reasons). It fits. DB was serialized and was made up of story arcs. Only a couple of them had any really decisive closures (23rd Budoukai and Cell are the only ones, but only the latter if you don't count the last chapter with Trunks because that's not really any good for a series finale). For the most part, a story arc ends and leads immediately into the next one, oftentimes in the same chapter. So it's almost rather brilliant to end with the expectation of more of the same. Boo is defeated. In the same chapter, there's a time skip leading to the next story arc. The characters are re-introduced with new looks. A familiar staple of the tournament is introduced. A focal point is established. And then Goku rides off into the sunset into new adventures that could very easily continue that same story arc that we just don't happen to see.

Totally agree with this. Again, while I slightly prefer GT's, I think the ending Toriyama chose fits the series very well.

Can we cut out of the middle man and have a thread where you just type out all of your opinions on this franchise? Every time you do one of these long posts they're super fucking interesting and make me feel embarrassingly dull. You need a Dragon Ball blog or something.

Well, thanks, I guess. I actually think this one was a little incoherent, but I'm glad you thought it was worthwhile.

I don't think I could ever maintain a Dragon Blog. And there are plenty of people on this forum able to go more in-depth on this series than me. I just finished four years of really serious creative writing and literary criticism, so it's natural to step into a review or analysis mode when talking about, watching, or reading fiction. Even something like Dragon Ball.

(That doesn't mean a lot of my thoughts on the series are anything more than, "I like the Boo arc because it's funny," or "The movies are okay if you pretend you're a Japanese elementary school student," though.)

[TheBlackPaladin]

By the way, Cipher, don't know if you're aware of this, but apparently Kanzenshuu tweeted your (wonderful) analysis of the endings!

[Nex Carnifex]

I think cipher is biased because hes a giro fan

[Big Momma]

I prefered GT's ending, just not everything up until that point. I loved getting a glimpse into the next generation, and the montage (although it could have been a lot better) was a great idea. That, and I'm a sucker for ol' Dan Dan.

[Saiyajin no Tatsujin]

GT's ending was more epic and emotional. Thus, I prefer it over Z's ending.

Flying off into the sunset on Shenlon's back, absorbing the dragon balls, and then vanishing was a nice way for Goku to make his final departure into the unknown. The only complaint I have is that Goku should have returned to his normal adult self after the fight with the one-star dragon. I still don't understand why they didn't do that. And the flashback of DB and DBZ in the end credits make it feel final.

Z's ending is still great because we get to see Goku extremely happy that he gets to continue training with someone that is on (or almost on) his level. It just feels like a cliffhanger to me everytime I watch it.

[InfernalVegito]

The only complaint I have is that Goku should have returned to his normal adult self after the fight with the one-star dragon. I still don't understand why they didn't do that.

Yeah same here. He was adult again in the GT film, which leaves it open as to what happened to him. Is he dead? Does he really exist or was it all just a figment of Son Goku Jr.'s imagination?

[Zestanor]

I would love the GT ending anywhere else... just not as an ending to Dragon Ball. In fact, that sums up most of my feeling for the big plot points of Toei's continuation. Take the Dragon Balls: After a series that's not only not punished characters for being stupid (Vegeta during the Cell Arc, Kuririn not using the remote, etc.), but has actually rewarded characters for being stupid (not killing Piccolo or Vegeta), suddenly, the characters are punished for being... well, according to Old Kaioshin, stupid (you whippersnappers and your saving the universe!) Dragon Ball handled lots of plot twists, but never any that relied on content from 13 years prior.

I love Dragon Ball, but I can't really say it's deep. A happy ending (like Z's) is exactly what I would expect. On the contrary, GT kills off its main character. And when I say kill, I don't mean 'kill' by way the way DB has defined it up to this point; no, Goku cannot be revived. Then, letting you know that the series is deadpan absolutely over, 100 years are skipped to allow the rest of the cast to die of old age. This is pretty deep! (Deep is such a shallow word, isn't it?) This is good! But this is certainly not what I would expect to come from Dragon Ball. Therefore, I have to go with Toriyama's ending. He knew what series he was writing an ending to.

[TheBlackPaladin]

The only complaint I have is that Goku should have returned to his normal adult self after the fight with the one-star dragon. I still don't understand why they didn't do that. And the flashback of DB and DBZ in the end credits make it feel final.

While I agree that having him return to his adult form would have made more sense, my guess is that they kept him in child form as a way of showing how the character had come full-circle. The story of "Dragon Ball" began with Goku as a kid, and so with Goku exiting as a kid, it's a way of tying in the ending to the beginning.

[Nex Carnifex]

Toriyama's ending was more of a setup for a continuation that's why it seems less final its supposed to. To bad that continuation was gt . In terms of an ending I don't think Goku should randomly disappear with the dragon balls; him and vegeta should be equal at the end and somehow granted the ability to fight in space (dragon ball wish) so they can have epic battles without destroying everything, thus dragon ball online's backstory. Killing Goku off was done before but he came back anyway, Dragon Balls ending should evoke wonder not confusion and sadness.

[dbboxkaifan]

Gii Tii's definitely.

[Pokewhiz7]

Gii Tii's definitely.

Zetto's ending is pretty good too.

[dbboxkaifan]

I was kind of disappointed with Zed's ending because I wanted the ending to be a final, a way to wrap up the series for good instead of Goku and Uub flying away for training.

Kai's ending wasn't bad but Gii Tii's still beats it, imo.

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

I completely disagree, because GT goes out of its way to force everybody else into uselessness so they have to rely on ~goku~.

The way Z ended, Goku was completely outclassed by Gohan and Gotenks, and Uub has promise of equalling or exceeding SS3 Goku. GT begins and Gohan is stripped of his mystic powerup, Gotenks is mentioned once and discarded, and Uub does so little he's barely in it. Even Vegeta, Goku's direct equal in the Buu arc, only exists to give heroic statements and then get beaten the fuck down so he can stare into the divine nuts of Godku.

So no, GT, you don't get any credit for bitching at the characters for doing what you forced them into doing.

Was waiting for this. The biggest issue with taking GT's ending is that you have to acknowledge that GT actually happened, rather than this "Super Sayain 4, Evil Dragons, Mystic Ending" bubble people are so prone to putting it in. GT unearthed so much of Z's ending and replaced it with nothing, if not detrimental material, that I feel preferring it is a disservice to the story as whole. Z's ending is abrupt and in some ways too perfect, but at least it respects whatever closure Toriyama had managed to give.

Sure, GT's ending acknowledged how big the series had become, but to throw in a JRPG analogy, Z's was the humble, back home happy ending after battling god in the mystic space castle against an amazing technicolor background. It's humility compliments the cosmic-level madness that just went down.

[johnboy1]

Gii Tii's definitely.

I don't know what planet you come from, but I'm pretty sure it's not America.

[VegettoEX]

He insists on spelling both Freeza and Vegeta with the letter "i", phonetically spelling out the letter "Z" as "zetto" and "zed", and most of his sentences make absolutely no sense.

I haven't yet figured out if he's just a banned member slowly falling back into old ways, has no actual grasp on any language he claims to speak, or just wants to be different for the sake of being different.

[Nex Carnifex]

I completely disagree, because GT goes out of its way to force everybody else into uselessness so they have to rely on ~goku~.

The way Z ended, Goku was completely outclassed by Gohan and Gotenks, and Uub has promise of equalling or exceeding SS3 Goku. GT begins and Gohan is stripped of his mystic powerup, Gotenks is mentioned once and discarded, and Uub does so little he's barely in it. Even Vegeta, Goku's direct equal in the Buu arc, only exists to give heroic statements and then get beaten the fuck down so he can stare into the divine nuts of Godku.

So no, GT, you don't get any credit for bitching at the characters for doing what you forced them into doing.

Was waiting for this. The biggest issue with taking GT's ending is that you have to acknowledge that GT actually happened, rather than this "Super Sayain 4, Evil Dragons, Mystic Ending" bubble people are so prone to putting it in. GT unearthed so much of Z's ending and replaced it with nothing, if not detrimental material, that I feel preferring it is a disservice to the story as whole. Z's ending is abrupt and in some ways too perfect, but at least it respects whatever closure Toriyama had managed to give.

Sure, GT's ending acknowledged how big the series had become, but to throw in a JRPG analogy, Z's was the humble, back home happy ending after battling god in the mystic space castle against an amazing technicolor background. It's humility compliments the cosmic-level madness that just went down.

This completely. I still think Dragon Ball's original ending was designed to allow for a continuation instead of giving closure, and that's why people view GT as the better ending because it was more final, but you can't just take SS4 and the whole concept of Shadow Dragons and say GT successfully wrapped up the story because in reality GT tore it apart sort of like all the alien movies after Aliens. It stripped Dragon Balls internal logic about how strong the characters were and made the entire cast pointless while 'Z's ending went out of its way to introduce both Mystic Gohan and Uub as the new protectors of Earth. Looking at GT as one big ending it failed on just about every single level accept some good ideas and character designs.

[DoomieDoomie911]

I prefer GT's ending. The flashback is really nostalgic and heartwarming. We see Goku wave and jump on Kintoun, then fly off into the distance. Then again I really like Z's ending also. It leaves a big gap as to what could happen next.

[Cipher]

By the way, Cipher, don't know if you're aware of this, but apparently Kanzenshuu tweeted your (wonderful) analysis of the endings!

Wow, no, I hadn't seen this. I've been away for a family trip for the past few days and had limited Internet access.

That's quite flattering. Who did that? I almost feel obligated to retweet it, but most of my Twitter followers aside from personal friends are people and organizations who followed me because I was editor of my university newspaper. Retweeting my Dragon Ball posts doesn't seem like its best use. That post isn't written very well either. I'd have sent it back if someone turned it in as a column.

This completely. I still think Dragon Ball's original ending was designed to allow for a continuation instead of giving closure, and that's why people view GT as the better ending because it was more final, but you can't just take SS4 and the whole concept of Shadow Dragons and say GT successfully wrapped up the story because in reality GT tore it apart sort of like all the alien movies after Aliens.

I agree, and I tried to address some of the negatives created by adding GT to the story. I guess we just walked away with different experiences, because for me the pros outweigh the cons. If you can't stand the series, though, there's no reason to stick by its ending.

I think cipher is biased because hes a giro fan

So, so biased.