Bardock the...Super Saiyan 4?

[PharaohAtem]

Okay, my brother pointed out during the Episode of Bardock, that he becomes a Super Saiyan with his tail still intact. This made me wonder...Vegeta remembers the super saiyan on Namek as a golden ape. Bardock transforms into a Super Saiyan while he still has his tail, so that means, he should be a Golden Ape next time he transforms. So, doesn't it make sense that Vegeta is remembering Bardock? And doesn't this mean he theoretically can transform into a Super Saiyan 4?

And please, I'd like to avoid any GT canon debates.

[sonikku956]

...Huh. That kinda makes sense,

[TheDevilsCorpse]

The latter seems unlikely. Bardock is said to remember his time as an Oozaru, but nothing is said about him being able to control it. I doubt he'd train to retain his senses, and without control, no SS4.

[Kaboom]

If having both a tail and Super Saiyan is all that's required, then he could very well end up as a Golden Ozaru. But whether he can control it to attain Super Saiyan 4...? That's a different story. He and the others seemed to have at least a limited amount of awareness and control in the first special's opening sequence, but not much.

[Fox666]

Vegeta remembers the super saiyan on Namek as a golden ape.

No he didn't. The appearance of the Super Saiyan was not estabilished at the time, and the animation team just made Vegeta picture himself as a monstruous Oozaru-esque creature.



You can see it doesn't have a tail. Also it is just a shadowy figure surrounded by fire, not a monster with yellow fur.

Bardock transforms into a Super Saiyan while he still has his tail, so that means, he should be a Golden Ape next time he transforms. So, doesn't it make sense that Vegeta is remembering Bardock? And doesn't this mean he theoretically can transform into a Super Saiyan 4?

Like I said, Vegeta is not specifically talking of Bardock.

From GT logic, Bardock should be able to transform in Super Saiyan 4 if he transforms in an Oozaru before. But it seems the author didn't take GT in account, considering Bardock's tail is not yellow, the Golden Oozaru wouldn't exist in this reality.

[Bussani]

If we're avoiding canon debates, then... Sure, why not?

I wish I had more to say, but what else is there?

Oh, I know. In GT itself, Bulma theorizes that Vegeta hadn't been able to become a Golden Oozaru in the past because he wasn't strong enough yet. This, frankly, seems dumb to me; the reason he didn't become a Golden Oozaru before then was because he hadn't had a tail and Super Saiyan at the same time yet, obviously. But despite it not making much sense, Bulma has Vegeta go through some weird, extra-special gravity training of some sort (unless I'm remembering completely wrong) to prepare himself for the transformation, which, of course, would be triggered by her machine. So while it's possible for Bardock to become one, isn't it also possible that he's not strong enough yet?

The above is assuming I'm remembering GT correctly at all.

[PharaohAtem]

Oh, I know. In GT itself, Bulma theorizes that Vegeta hadn't been able to become a Golden Oozaru in the past because he wasn't strong enough yet. This, frankly, seems dumb to me; the reason he didn't become a Golden Oozaru before then was because he hadn't had a tail and Super Saiyan at the same time yet, obviously. But despite it not making much sense, Bulma has Vegeta go through some weird, extra-special gravity training of some sort (unless I'm remembering completely wrong) to prepare himself for the transformation, which, of course, would be triggered by her machine. So while it's possible for Bardock to become one, isn't it also possible that he's not strong enough yet?

I agree, but then again, it may or may not make sense. Goku was a Super Saiyan 3, even though he was unable to handle Baby Vegeta, and maybe because Vegeta could only become a Super Saiyan 2, he couldn't do it. But he does go Super Saiyan 4, so I guess that theory goes out the window. From an out of universe perspective, I think the people behind the scenes just kept Baby as a Golden Monkey because it made for a more interesting fight then a Super Saiyan 4 may have. But I'm going off on a tangent...Maybe Bardock does need to become stronger, but who knows what can come out in the future. I wouldn't be surprised seeing all Super Saiyan 4's in Dragon Ball Heroes haha.

[Bussani]

I think Bulma said that Vegeta didn't become a Super Saiyan 4 when Baby was controlling him because of Baby. I forget the exact way she said it. The thing about him needing to make himself stronger was something separate.

[Twinbee_Mk_II]

Being one of the biggest GT fans on the forums here, allow me to toss in my two cents. Several thing were needed for a SSJ4 to happen. One of course is a tail, and the ability to go SSJ. Another thing though is the resulting Golden Oozaru needed to retain their reason fully to transform. All this would also be pointless unless the saiyan were strong enough. The reason given for Bebi being unable to attain SSJ4 was due to the fact that Vegeta's mind was dorment while Bebi controled his Oozaru form, therefor not allowing the transformation.So theoretically, if Bardock were strong enough and could control his Oozaru form, which would most likley be gold, he could indeed reach SSJ4. Mind you this is all theoretical if following GT's set of rules, which some may choose to ignore, but then if you're ignoring GT logic, why are you even thinking about SSJ4 anyways?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I don't think that Bardock would be strong enough for Super Saiyan 4. Like Bulma said, you have to be strong enough to become one, and I'm sure that Bardock is not anywhere near that level.

[shonenhikada]

The only conditions needed to go SSJ 4

1.Obtain SSJ 1
2.Turn great Ape while SSJ
3.Gain Control of great ape

[DBZGTKOSDH]

1.Obtain SSJ 1

Never stated.

2.Turn great Ape while SSJ

Never happened.

[Fox666]

I think the Golden Oozaru was meant to be a different class of transformations, not the Super Saiyan version of Oozaru. For that reason we don't have something like Golden Oozaru 2 and 3. Apparently achieving this form has something to do with being able to transform in Super Saiyan, but they are still different things.

Saiyan -> Super Saiyan -> Super Saiyan 2 -> Super Saiyan 3
Saiyan -> Oozaru -> Golden Oozaru -> Super Saiyan 4

[Hellspawn28]

I agree with DBZGTKOSDH that Bardock would need to be lot stronger to become a SSJ4. I don't think becoming a SSJ4 is that easy as most people make it out to be.

[Fox666]

It is not. Goku is the only one who can transform on his own. Vegeta still needs to transform in Oozaru before.

[shonenhikada]

Gold great ape is clearly a SSJ great ape.

[Kaboom]

I wouldn't call it "easy." It's almost certainly much more difficult to be both a Super Saiyan AND have your tail than it would seem from watching the series. For one, isn't there supposed to be a minimum power requirement for becoming a Super Saiyan? I remember the guidebooks citing something about surpassing "normal Saiyan limits" like Goku did on his way to Namek.

So if that's the case, then honestly, how many Saiyans would have the means, or even live long enough, to be pushing the 100,000 mark, much less also manage to keep their tail that long? Compared to pretty much every Goku and Vegeta are blessed by a rare set of circumstances that let them get where they end up. Even if the requirements for Super Saiyan 4 boil down to "Super Saiyan + Ozaru + Control," it's mostly a matter of luck and circumstance as to whether or not Bardock could eventually get that far.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Gold great ape is clearly a SSJ great ape.

It could be Super Saiyan 2, we will never know. It obviously is related, but never confirmed that you need Super Saiyan to go Golden Oozaru. But the sure thing is, you don't go Golden Oozaru when looking at the full moon with a tail when at Super Saiyan. You just look at the moon, turn into an Oozaru, and then into a Golden Oozaru.

[shonenhikada]

If it was SSJ2 it would have had lightning all over the ape.

[Bussani]

The only conditions needed to go SSJ 4

1.Obtain SSJ 1
2.Turn great Ape while SSJ
3.Gain Control of great ape

See, I might be remembering GT wrong--Twinbee should correct me if I am--but I remember Vegeta having to go through this weird extra training before he'd be able to reach Super Saiyan 4. Bulma didn't just build a Bruitz Waves machine and shoot him with it--he also had to do this training she devised. Unless that was just to close the gap between him and Goku? Someone who remembers, please tell us!

Edit:

If it was SSJ2 it would have had lightning all over the ape.

The lightning is part of the Super Saiyan 2 aura. Do Golden Oozarus even generally have auras?