How I think the Cell saga should have ended

[Bussani]

It's really not hard to see Piccolo and Vegeta wishing to stay dead. As for Krillin, Yamcha and Tenshinhan, we see how they begin to lose relevance throughout the saga (they even admit it, too). i'll put it like this:

They're all dead after seeing how relatively weak they are. Three of their friends wish to stay dead. Earth is already safe with Gohan. It's not hard to see them going with the flow.

I simply disagree. "Man, we're weak. Our lives are meaningless, so we're going to stay dead too," is hard for me to see. Especially if Gohan's then going to beat himself up over it to the point that he doesn't wish his arm back. Let's just leave the 9-11 year old one armed kid by himself--he's strong, he'll be okay.

And I'm saying that it'd be stupid for the Namekian Dragonballs to be used at that very moment. It'd just be random and since they're already dead, keeping them dead sets up a stronger mood.

It's bad writing practice to make something logical/possible not happen simply because you think it gives the story a stronger mood. It's kind of similar to how an author might make someone act out-of-character just because they want to advance the plot in a certain direction.

I just want to add that, while I think there are flaws, it's not like I'm venomously opposed to your idea. Like I said, it's a what-if story I wouldn't mind reading. I mostly just disagree with you that it's deeper or stronger than what Toriyama wrote. It's darker, different, and maybe even interesting, but that's all.

[Dr. Machismo]

I don't understand why you keep using "Well we will end up with a happy moment with Goku and Gohan at the end" to justify having Trunks' mission for trying to rescue the timeline not have any payoff. There's no point in a "dark and grizzly" ending if it doesn't actually resolve anything. No story is complete without a resolution unless there's a sequel that does resolve it. I'd wager that Gohan being all by himself with no father or friends and basically being in the same position as Future Trunks after he takes care of the Androids in his timeline is the farthest thing from what Trunks wanted, as well as for the younger version of himself to grow up without a father.

I'm pretty sure that nobody wanted Goku to die, but he still died in the main story. The reason why nobody had that much of a problem with it (minus Chi-Chi) was because Earth was still in peace and in good hands. My idea has something similar with most of the Z Force dying, but Earth still being in peace and in good care. If Trunks saw that his dead friends were comfortable being dead and that Earth was safe with Gohan, he'd have no problem.

I simply disagree. "Man, we're weak. Our lives are meaningless, so we're going to stay dead too," is hard for me to see. Especially if Gohan's then going to beat himself up over it to the point that he doesn't wish his arm back. Let's just leave the 9-11 year old one armed kid by himself--he's strong, he'll be okay.

Agree to disagree, then? It's really not that hard to see them going with the flow and wishing to stay dead, at least IMO. And they wouldn't know the emotional toll it will have on Gohan, hence why they find out in a following arc and cheer him up.

It's bad writing practice to make something logical/possible not happen simply because you think it gives the story a stronger mood. It's kind of similar to how an author might make someone act out-of-character just because they want to advance the plot in a certain direction.

If they're already dead, it's best that they stay dead. Most of them had outlived their usefulness (Krillin, Tien, Yamcha) or wouldn't have had a problem staying dead (Goku and most likely Piccolo and Vegeta, the latter of which is probably headed straight to Hell) anyway. Bringing out the Namekian Dragonballs at that point would be random and stupid, but that's just IMO I guess. I don't think it's bad writing practice, and I'm sure Toriyama has avoided logical things happening because he thought it'd kill a mood.

And, yes, there's that too. There are certain expectations in storytelling, based on genre, style, etc. If something is set up, it has to be delivered upon. If the entire setup for a story arc is that a man comes back to the past so that he can stop the gloomy future he lives in in which everyone important has died, the audience expects that that goal will be accomplished. Just like a story arc where the goal is to find new Dragon Balls to wish their dead friends back to life... ends with them finding new Dragon Balls to wish their dead friends back to life. From the moment that Cell announces that he has to absorb #17 and #18 to become complete, you KNOW that Cell will not be defeated before he obtains that goal. There is just no possible way. It's the Law of Conservation of Detail at work: there's no point in establishing it if it's not going to be followed through upon.

I think it can be a serious flaw when everything turns out just as the reader expected. That would unsurprising and sometimes unexciting. And yeah, I don't see how my idea goes against that point since Earth is still saved and in Gohan's care.

[sonikku956]

.....That is seriously dark. I don't think even Deadman Wonderland would make an ending so dark, and that's a shonen.

Dragon Ball is also a shonen.

I knew that already...

[dbboxkaifan]

Too dark.

Kai's Episode 96 as the ending to the Cell saga would've been perfect, instead Kai got another 2 episodes. IMO, 96 feels a better ending (shows Gohan resting, Goku in the background - sky and the narrator speaking, then it ends) than 97.

[matt0044]

Too dark.

Kai's Episode 96 as the ending to the Cell saga would've been perfect, instead Kai got another 2 episodes. IMO, 96 feels a better ending (shows Gohan resting, Goku in the background - sky and the narrator speaking, then it ends) than 97.

Nah, 97 feels more open ended with all the ends tied up with Mr Satan taking the credit, Android 18 coming to and leaving Krillin, Trunks and all of Cell's victims coming back to life, Goku deciding to stay dead and Trunks returning to the future. With Dragon Soul playing them out, it really felt it was the end.

[Bussani]

Agree to disagree, then?

Of course.

I don't think it's bad writing practice, and I'm sure Toriyama has avoided logical things happening because he thought it'd kill a mood.

I think he probably has, and I still have a problem with it even if he does it. It's writing 101. If you're going to make something happen just because you want the story to go that way, you at least have to disguise it and make sure it makes enough in-universe sense for the reader not to question it. But you think it makes sense and I'm not so sure, so like you said, we'll agree to disagree.

[shonenhikada]

Why only the saiyan's survive the cell jr. Piccolo deserve to survive to.

[Dr. Machismo]

Why only the saiyan's survive the cell jr. Piccolo deserve to survive to.

After Yamcha, Krillin and Tien are killed, the Cell Juniors gang up on and kill Piccolo. They were going to kill Goku, Vegeta and Trunks, but Gohan transforms, drawing their attention. There isn't a better time to kill off Piccolo, you know.

btw, in the manga, Vegeta and Trunks were the only ones said to be holding their own against the Cell Juniors.

I think he probably has, and I still have a problem with it even if he does it. It's writing 101. If you're going to make something happen just because you want the story to go that way, you at least have to disguise it and make sure it makes enough in-universe sense for the reader not to question it. But you think it makes sense and I'm not so sure, so like you said, we'll agree to disagree.

The dudes agreeing not to be wished back makes enough sense to me. But anyway, agreeing to disagree.

[shonenhikada]

Why only the saiyan's survive the cell jr. Piccolo deserve to survive to.

After Yamcha, Krillin and Tenshinhan are killed, the Cell Juniors gang up on and kill Piccolo. They were going to kill Goku, Vegeta and Trunks, but Gohan transforms, drawing their attention. There isn't a better time to kill off Piccolo, you know.

btw, in the manga, Vegeta and Trunks were the only ones said to be holding their own against the Cell Juniors.

I think he probably has, and I still have a problem with it even if he does it. It's writing 101. If you're going to make something happen just because you want the story to go that way, you at least have to disguise it and make sure it makes enough in-universe sense for the reader not to question it. But you think it makes sense and I'm not so sure, so like you said, we'll agree to disagree.

The dudes agreeing not to be wished back makes enough sense to me. But anyway, agreeing to disagree.

The manga never states this directly it cell merely states that vegeta and trunks can barely hold their own as an example if you will of how feeble the z fighters were in comparison to the cell jr.

[Dr. Machismo]

OK, but that still doesn't mean Piccolo wouldn't have been killed by the Cell Juniors. It doesn't make him look any weaker, because anybody at that point would have killed if the Cell Juniors ganged up on them.

[SonMatthew]

I think over all this is a bit of a 'dark = better' idea. My main problem, though, is the mind set of why the Z fighters would choose to stay dead. Goku realises that his presence actually threatens the world, and that the other-world provides the excitement and challenges he craves in life. It is doubly understandable why he chooses to stay dead.

Now, remember that Krillin, Yamcha and Tien are all young men. They already have a long way to go in their training (as shown by their 'weakness') so I doubt otherworld would be of any special appeal to them. Also, Krillin and Yamcha clearly want to find girlfriends/settle down as well as fighting. Why would they just give that up for no reason? Krillin loves 18 and Tien wouldn't want to leave Chioaztu, so again I can't imagine them doing it. The only reason it would make sense is as an attempt to give Dragonball an all new cast and tone. It wouldn't make sense for the characters, just for the plot - and this is always a bad thing for me.

[ShinRogafuken]

If they're already dead, it's best that they stay dead. Most of them had outlived their usefulness (Krillin, Tenshinhan, Yamcha)

Uh, just because they're not as useful to the main plot anymore and have chosen to live a different lifestyle than be with the Z Senshi all the time means that they should die and not come back? That's pretty bad logic, even on Toriyama's standards. You can be "written out of the plot" without dying...

[Dr. Machismo]

You know what? What if Dende becoming god never happens? Then, nobody could come back to life even if they wanted to.

[Bussani]

You know what? What if Dende becoming god never happens? Then, nobody could come back to life even if they wanted to.

I was actually going to suggest that earlier, but I wasn't sure if you needed Dende for anything else. That seems like a more believable way to take the plot in the direction you want to take it. Of course, someone could say that they could still get Kaio to ask the Namekians to wish them back to life, but I think that's less obvious, and you could easily say that it's against the rules for Kaio to do that (even though he sort of organized the wishes being made in the Freeza arc).

[Dr. Machismo]

Yeah, but I think the change in tone brought by having most of the Z Force killed would be too sudden.

I think it'd better to replace the Android saga with something that goes along better with having most of the Z Force killed. I guess having everyone killed in the main timeline doesn't work that great with the concept of Future Trunks and time traveling overall.