Cell a Solar System Buster ?

[caejones]

It was about Dabura sensing everyone's energy even though they had their ki suppressed.

[Mystic Gohan]

Well clearly he sensed some of there hidden power....How else would he know that they could fill up the Buu meter?

[Saiga]

Well clearly he sensed some of there hidden power....How else would he know that they could fill up the Buu meter?

Because he can sense energy. Which is needed to revive Boo. Energy and power aren't necessarily the same thing.

[goku the krump dancer]

I'm sorry my previous post got you upset, but eh spare me the lecture.

Not upset, more irritated and possibly peeved. Especially since it's not uncommon for people to completely underestimate how goddamn big things really are.

Although I do like the idea that Cell has the same misconception and thinks destroying the solar system will be like shooting pool or something..

I understand your frustration because I have similar reactions with people about other things but most of it is with common knowledge.. Again like others have said its a just a cartoon/manga or comic book whatever.

I too call bullshit when I see it in works of fiction. For example even though its not 'canon' to the main story in the Asura's Wrath DLC he fights Ryu. In this DLC Asura punches Ryu to the freaking moon and he not only lives after the landing but also still has energy to fight. Anyone who knows Street Fighter knows that AT BEST Ryu could probably destroy a mountain and would die if he fell off something like the empire state building, so how the hell could he survive being punched to the Moon?... BULL SHIT.

My thing with Dragon Ball is that the characters have been doing outrageous shit from the beginning Roshi blowing up the Moon then Nappa lifting two fingers and completely destroying a city to the point where a couple feet of the ground was even destroyed witch left Vegeta and Nappa floating in the air. So imo it really isn't too far fetched that someone like Cell could destroy the Solar System in possibly one swoop regardless of how big or far apart the planets maybe in in the real outer space.

[Bussani]

The Dabura thing has always seemed crazy to me. He apparently has some super special sense that lets him know the Saiyans have a useful amount of energy, but he's completely surprised when Goku becomes a Super Saiyan and they realize how much ki he has. Hell, he was surprised when they beat Puipui, and they didn't even need Super Saiyan for that.

Dabura's as reliable as Kaioshin.

[Saiga]

The Dabura thing has always seemed crazy to me. He apparently has some super special sense that lets him know the Saiyans have a useful amount of energy, but he's completely surprised when Goku becomes a Super Saiyan and they realize how much ki he has. Hell, he was surprised when they beat Puipui, and they didn't even need Super Saiyan for that.

Dabura's as reliable as Kaioshin.

Or, OR, hear me out here: Energy =/= Power.

[Rocketman]

I always figured that part of Piccolo's ki is godly, so they wouldn't be able to use that.

[Mystic Gohan]

That would be conjecture. Babidi just considers Piccolo's energy completely negligible compared to the Saiyans. As i have already explained, Dabura had to have sensed some hidden power or energy or whatever you want to call it to know that the Saiyan's have marvelous energy as they were all supposed to be suppressed hiding behind a rock. This couldn't be SSJ energy, because otherwise Dabura would have gotten a whiff of Goku's SSJ3 and realized everyone was trash compared to him.

[Saiga]

That would be conjecture. Babidi just considers Piccolo's energy completely negligible compared to the Saiyans. As i have already explained, Dabura had to have sensed some hidden power or energy or whatever you want to call it to know that the Saiyan's have marvelous energy as they were all supposed to be suppressed hiding behind a rock. This couldn't be SSJ energy, because otherwise Dabura would have gotten a whiff of Goku's SSJ3 and realized everyone was trash compared to him.

Exactly. So nothing dictates that Vegeta, Goku, and Gohan have more power than Piccolo, just more energy.

[dbgtFO]

@Debate about Babidi and Dabra on Saiyans
I don't think Dabra or Babidi was sensing anything nor do I think they really knew how much power was required to resurrect Majin Buu, as they thought 3 powers lower than Pui Pui's could do it.

So how did they know about the Saiyans being stronger than everyone else?

They just knew.. somehow.

As has already been stated, they didn't have a clue about the characters' power compared to Babidi's fighters, but they still accurately figured that the Saiyans would contribute enough energy to Majin Buu's shell, so how to make sense of that?

Since it's not explained in the manga at all, I simply assume Babidi's crystal ball was involved somehow, like in Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs, where the Magical Mirror is able to tell who the fairest person is or Aladdin, where Jafar's magic hour-glass tells him who the "diamond in the rough" is.
So in this scenario I just assume Babidi's crystal ball could somehow pinpoint who would contribute the most energy to Buu's shell just because.

As for topic..
I'm fine with Cell "having enough ki power to blow away the Solar System."

[Bussani]

Or, OR, hear me out here: Energy =/= Power.

Yes, yes, I heard you. I'm not sure I agree or not, but it's an interesting suggestion and makes as much sense as anything else. They do say they need "pure energy" rather than "ki", after all, which is a term that isn't used before then or since as far as I know. Maybe it's something that's tied to ki, but isn't simply battle power itself? Sort of like genki.

[Hitiro]

Yeah so? Cell can destroy a Solar System with a FP KHH, yet Kid Buu can't when he is at the very minimum 4x stronger than him?

Actually, if we go by the understanding that techniques amplify a person's ki output, much like I explained with Goku's powerlevel jumping to 924 when launching a Kamehameha with his actual powerlevel being 416. Then Pure Boo would only be around a minimum of 2x stronger than Cell's Kamehameha. And don't forget that you have to charge an attack for it to be effective, Pure Boo obviously didn't gather enough energy for his attack to be as destructive as Cell's Kamehameha but it had enough energy for the attack to be unblock-able by Goku and Vegeta in their SSJ forms. It would have probably taken way too much time in SSJ2 and even though it would have taken less time in SSJ3 there probably wasn't enough time for Goku to do it before it collided with the Earth. I feel nobody gets the sense of them rushing when Pure Boo's attack is launched but the only properly constructed sentences we see after Buu launched the attack were "Vegeta, this way!" "We'll Teleport!" and "Hang on" Goku even says after he grabs Mr. Satan and Dende that there is only enough time for one teleport. This only points out the fact that they didn't have much time further as if you can't use a technique which moves you instantaneously from one position to another more than once then you are seriously short on time.

Yes, yes, I heard you. I'm not sure I agree or not, but it's an interesting suggestion and makes as much sense as anything else. They do say they need "pure energy" rather than "ki", after all, which is a term that isn't used before then or since as far as I know. Maybe it's something that's tied to ki, but isn't simply battle power itself? Sort of like genki.

Just curious, but when is genki ever listed as an energy other than ki? People keep saying that the Genki dama doesn't take peoples ki, but rather, their genki. But in the panels before and after Goku launched the Genki Dama the words used the most are ki and power(But to be fair the context of power could just actually mean power rather than a form of energy), the word genki only appears twice in the whole fight. Whereas everywhere else the word ki is used.

Chapter: 514 (DBZ 320), P8.3-4
Context: after Vegeta tells Goku to make a Genki-Dama
Goku: “Hey! So it was the Genki-Dama you were thinking of!? It-it’s no use! Against Boo, no matter how much we gathered little bits of genki from all the Earthlings…”
Vegeta: “I told you, right? That those guys on Earth should take responsibility every now and then…! It won’t be just little bit. We’ll gather ki from them right up to their limits!”

Chapter: 514 (DBZ 320), P12.3
Goku: “Everyone! Give me as much genki as you possibly can! Please!”

Chapter: 514 (DBZ 320), P13.3-4
Context: after Gohan and co. contribute their genki to the Genki-Dama
Goku: “Oh! It’s here, it’s here! It’s already huge! This is Gohan and the others’ ki!”
Vegeta: “…Bu-but it’s not complete yet…Wh-why…?!”

Chapter: 515 (DBZ 321), P1.1
Context: after Gohan and co. contribute their genki to the Genki-Dama
Goku: “Hey, even this probably isn’t enough to wipe out Boo! What are they doing?! Hardly anyone but our friends is sending us ki!”

Chapter: 516 (DBZ 322), P8.5-6
Context: people on Namek and in the afterlife watch Boo stall the Genki-Dama
Elder Kaioshin: “Th-this is bad. Ma-maybe that ‘Genki-Dama’ thing st-still doesn’t have enough power…”
Dende: “Th-that can’t be…! We-we already used our ki…”
Enma Daio: “Ha-hang in there, Son Goku…! Th-that Genki-Dama has power from us here in the afterlife in it too…!”

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Just curious, but when is genki ever listed as an energy other than ki? People keep saying that the Genki dama doesn't take peoples ki, but rather, their genki. But in the panels before and after Goku launched the Genki Dama the words used the most are ki and power(But to be fair the context of power could just actually mean power rather than a form of energy), the word genki only appears twice in the whole fight. Whereas everywhere else the word ki is used.

Well...

Well, the first thing to point out is that it’s not simply a 3-fold nature; Toriyama mentions genki, shouki, and yuuki only by way of example (I guess my translation doesn’t really make this clear enough). Toriyama says that ki also includes spiritual power such as vitality, soberness, and bravery (the word for “and” here is ya, indicating that the things listed aren’t exhaustive and there are other things that could be added). He says that “of course” ki includes these things, and the only obvious connection between those terms is that they’re spiritual/mental states with 気/ki in their name. So presumably, other spiritual or mental states that have ki in them could also be included.

How exactly this relates to the Genki-Dama is unclear, to say the least, and I really don’t think we can do anything but speculate. In the series, that which the Genki-Dama gathers is referred to variously as 元気/genki, 気/ki, エネルギー/enerugii (taken from the German word for “energy”), and 力/chikara, “power”. The daizenshuu explain that “energy” (the German word) and ki are simply different names for the same thing, and “power” is a pretty generic term. And Toriyama’s SEG explanation would seem to indicate genki as being a particular type or sub-category of ki. Overall I think it makes the most sense to think of the Genki-Dama as drawing on only the genki component of a person’s ki. However, while genki is only one of many things included in ki, it seems to be a fairly vital component. In the Boo arc, donating one’s genki to the Genki-Dama is said to tire you out in the same way that running as fast as you can does, and Kaioshin becomes unable to teleport after contributing his genki. And in the anime, if you want to count that, it’s said that taking too much genki from the Earthlings could kill them. So it doesn’t seem that people can just give their genki away and be fine because they’ve still got all the other components of their ki intact. Maybe this is because genki makes up the majority of most people’s ki, so taking it away leaves little left. Or maybe genki is just extra vital due to its connection with health. Like in an RPG, a character can fight with reduced attack or defense, but reduce their HP to zero and they can’t fight at all.

[Kaboom]

So how did they know about the Saiyans being stronger than everyone else?

Like you said... they're magic. We're talking about an ancient wizard and a legendary mystical king of demons. Even if they apparently suck at actually gauging and comparing ki, they each probably had some sort of mind-reading or other magical clairvoyance which let them know which among the heroes were abnormally powerful, even if they didn't know the true scale and extent of that power. Dabra certainly never seemed aware that, at their absolute bests (Super Saiyan 2 or 3), any one of the three Saiyans could have easily knocked his head off.

[shonenhikada]

So how did they know about the Saiyans being stronger than everyone else?

Like you said... they're magic. We're talking about an ancient wizard and a legendary mystical king of demons. Even if they apparently suck at actually gauging and comparing ki, they each probably had some sort of mind-reading or other magical clairvoyance which let them know which among the heroes were abnormally powerful, even if they didn't know the true scale and extent of that power. Dabra certainly never seemed aware that, at their absolute bests (Super Saiyan 2 or 3), any one of the three Saiyans could have easily knocked his head off.

Dabura losses all credibility in ki reading when he thought he could take goku, gohan, and Vegeta all at the same time.

[Dabooyaka]

I'm sorry, but guys that need an energy reading device are not people that I am willing to trust when it comes to power statement The fact is that Dabura couldn't have sensed their base power because they where all suppressed, most likely down to 0 since they where trying to hide. Not to mention that when the base saiyan's energy got measured at the Budokai, it was pathetic. It took only Ssj2 energy to get anybodies attention.

IMO, Dabura and Babidi, being magical beings, somehow managed to sense something far beyond what they where putting out at the time. There is no other way around it.

As for Cell being a solar system buster? Well, If Roshi can bust the moon with a power level less than 300, and Vegeta can bust a planet with a power level of 18,000, I don't see why Super Perfect Cell can't bust a solar system. He is a freaking Ssj2 Tier.

[Mystic Gohan]

I'm sorry, but guys that need an energy reading device are not people that I am willing to trust when it comes to power statement The fact is that Dabura couldn't have sensed their base power because they where all suppressed, most likely down to 0 since they where trying to hide. Not to mention that when the base saiyan's energy got measured at the Budokai, it was pathetic. It took only Ssj2 energy to get anybodies attention.

IMO, Dabura and Babidi, being magical beings, somehow managed to sense something far beyond what they where putting out at the time. There is no other way around it.

As for Cell being a solar system buster? Well, If Roshi can bust the moon with a power level less than 300, and Vegeta can bust a planet with a power level of 18,000, I don't see why Super Perfect Cell can't bust a solar system. He is a freaking Ssj2 Tier.

They were suppressed at the budokai too. Why would they all be at FP there too?

[Dabooyaka]

Which is why any power statement made at that time holds no weight.

[LiamKav]

As for Cell being a solar system buster? Well, If Roshi can bust the moon with a power level less than 300, and Vegeta can bust a planet with a power level of 18,000, I don't see why Super Perfect Cell can't bust a solar system. He is a freaking Ssj2 Tier.

The argument is that those aren't things that naturally follow on in a sequence.

"A mouse can run 100 meters in a minute. A cat can do it in 30 seconds. Therefore a horse must be able to do it in 2 seconds!"

There isn't a chart that goes "moon - planet - solar system". A planet like Earth is much bigger than the moon, but it's still a lump of rock. A solar system is something completely different. In terms of size, the Earth is 4 times the size of the moon (and 45 times its mass). How much bigger is the sun than the Earth? 1,300,000 times! There's also the fact that Cell (and Freeza, and Vegeta) are usually stood on the planets they are blowing up so the range is fairly small. But let's take the examples of people blowing up the moon. It's 240,000 miles from the Earth to the moon. From the Earth to the sun is 93,000,000 miles. That's a range increase of 37 times. This is obviously not the massive increase in scale that we had with sizes, but it's still further than we've ever seen an energy beam go.

If we're choosing the idea that Cell is going to somehow destroy all the planets in the solar system at the same time... well, to give you an idea of the scale here.

If the sun is a bowling ball, then the Earth is the size of a peppercorn. They would be 26 yards apart. Pluto would be a thousand yards away. A thousand yards, remember, on a scale where the Earth is the size of a peppercorn.

There's big. There's really, really big. There's Goku's power in the Buu saga big. And then there's space.

[Hitiro]

As for Cell being a solar system buster? Well, If Roshi can bust the moon with a power level less than 300, and Vegeta can bust a planet with a power level of 18,000, I don't see why Super Perfect Cell can't bust a solar system. He is a freaking Ssj2 Tier.

The argument is that those aren't things that naturally follow on in a sequence.

"A mouse can run 100 meters in a minute. A cat can do it in 30 seconds. Therefore a horse must be able to do it in 2 seconds!"

There isn't a chart that goes "moon - planet - solar system". A planet like Earth is much bigger than the moon, but it's still a lump of rock. A solar system is something completely different. In terms of size, the Earth is 4 times the size of the moon (and 45 times its mass). How much bigger is the sun than the Earth? 1,300,000 times! There's also the fact that Cell (and Freeza, and Vegeta) are usually stood on the planets they are blowing up so the range is fairly small. But let's take the examples of people blowing up the moon. It's 240,000 miles from the Earth to the moon. From the Earth to the sun is 93,000,000 miles. That's a range increase of 37 times. This is obviously not the massive increase in scale that we had with sizes, but it's still further than we've ever seen an energy beam go.

If we're choosing the idea that Cell is going to somehow destroy all the planets in the solar system at the same time... well, to give you an idea of the scale here.

If the sun is a bowling ball, then the Earth is the size of a peppercorn. They would be 26 yards apart. Pluto would be a thousand yards away. A thousand yards, remember, on a scale where the Earth is the size of a peppercorn.

There's big. There's really, really big. There's Goku's power in the Buu saga big. And then there's space.

So your assuming that the distance the energy beams can go doesn't increase or is limited to only the distance of the moon or something along those lines? To start with we don't even know the maximum distance a technique like the Kamehameha can be fired by someone like Kame Sennin but we know its been as far as the Moon. If we assume that the distance an attack can travel is proportional to the amount of ki a person has(Which is not a theory I subscribe to as I feel an energy attack may travel as far as it needs to without requiring any more power. And we also don't see characters worrying about the distance they fire their techniques from because they'll become weaker or come up short) and we take Goku's powerlevel on Namek at SSJ he's over a million times stronger than Kame Sennin. So does that mean that Goku can fire a million times further than Kame Sennin and hit an object like the moon to destroy it? We simply don't know how Ki functions within the Dragonball universe so we can't just judge that because we've never seen an energy beam go further than the moon then that must mean that's as far as they go. We don't even know where the cut-off point for Gohan, Cell and Vegeta's attacks were. It seemed to me that Gohan's Kamehameha just continued the direction he fired it at. And, to be honest, who wants to see see 4 or 5 panels of the attacks passing various planets in the solar system? A simple 1 panel shot of the energy beams leaving orbit and heading out into space is fine.