The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[hleV]

Piccolo (Android Saga pre-merger) vs Nameless Namekian (Pre-split)

We know that Piccolo got quite powerful after his training in preparation for the Androids, but did he surpass the Nameless Namekian?

I'd estimate the son of Katatz to have been only at 3,000 at best. He was from the Dragon Clan after all. Piccolo already surpassed that at the time they fought Nappa.
I'm not exactly sure why would you compare such a strong version of Piccolo to the son of Katatz. Was it because of some statement from Nail?

[Piccolo Daimao]

Base Gotenks vs. SS Goten and Trunks

Stronger than the sum of the parts doesn't mean more than 50x stronger. That'd really push Gotenks' power into ridiculous territory.

Not if you don't use the x50 multiplier for Fusions. I personally choose to just use a x15 multiplier. It makes things less of a clusterfuck when dealing with battle power lists.

Piccolo (Android Saga pre-merger) vs Nameless Namekian (Pre-split)

We know that Piccolo got quite powerful after his training in preparation for the Androids, but did he surpass the Nameless Namekian?

Yes, definitely. While the child of Katatz was said to be a prodigy, I don't think he would've been much stronger than 4k, since the average battle power of a young Namekian seems to be 3k (judging by the segment with Dodoria). Only Nail got up to 42k due to, IMO, having his dormant power brought out by the Great Elder. And Nail only said that a Piccolo-Kami fusion would have a chance against (first-form, at the least) Freeza after he'd been trained by Kaiou and had, judging by Nail's comments, surpassed 42k.

So Cell arc Piccolo, who'd be in the millions, crushes the nameless Namekian so hard it's not even funny.

[Fox666]

I'd estimate the son of Katatz to have been only at 3,000 at best. He was from the Dragon Clan after all. Piccolo already surpassed that at the time they fought Nappa.
I'm not exactly sure why would you compare such a strong version of Piccolo to the son of Katatz. Was it because of some statement from Nail?

Saichourou asked if he wasn't defeated by a Super Saiyan. And after reading Kuririn's memories, then he said that it was because he split his power... so I think he should be stronger than Vegeta, if not close to a Super Saiyan.

[Saiga]

I thought Nail had said that Piccolo would've won against if he had never defused, referring to the original son of Katatz and not what a fusion between Piccolo and Nail would achieve. Oh well.

Base Gotenks vs. SS Goten and Trunks

Stronger than the sum of the parts doesn't mean more than 50x stronger. That'd really push Gotenks' power into ridiculous territory.

Not if you don't use the x50 multiplier for Fusions. I personally choose to just use a x15 multiplier. It makes things less of a clusterfuck when dealing with battle power lists.

But it doesn't make any sense to reduce the multiplier for a fusion. Seems it'd be much simpler just to lower his base forms power into realistic levels, it's not like he achieved anything with it anyway.

[Piccolo Daimao]

I'd estimate the son of Katatz to have been only at 3,000 at best. He was from the Dragon Clan after all. Piccolo already surpassed that at the time they fought Nappa.
I'm not exactly sure why would you compare such a strong version of Piccolo to the son of Katatz. Was it because of some statement from Nail?

Saichourou asked if he wasn't defeated by a Super Saiyan. And after reading Kuririn's memories, then he said that it was because he split his power... so I think he should be stronger than Vegeta, if not close to a Super Saiyan.

To Saichorou, the average battle power of a Saiyan may just be 1,500, like Raditz, and who's to say he even knows about the class system? Vegeta wasn't a member of a royalty; a super-elite, and exceptionally strong by even his own race's standards. And Super Saiyan is still just a legend, so he can't know of their power.

Base Gotenks vs. SS Goten and Trunks

Stronger than the sum of the parts doesn't mean more than 50x stronger. That'd really push Gotenks' power into ridiculous territory.

Not if you don't use the x50 multiplier for Fusions. I personally choose to just use a x15 multiplier. It makes things less of a clusterfuck when dealing with battle power lists.

But it doesn't make any sense to reduce the multiplier for a fusion. Seems it'd be much simpler just to lower his base forms power into realistic levels, it's not like he achieved anything with it anyway.

MAGIC. And I just don't think it makes any sense for base Gotenks to be weaker than Goten and Trunks' Super Saiyan selves; IMO, he has to be stronger than SS Goten and Trunks at the very least. Not to mention that it makes Piccolo thinking that post-RoSaT base Gotenks had a shot at defeating Super Boo that little more plausible, even though he was just clinging to false hopes (he was still oblivious as to the kids being able to transform into SS after merging in their base forms) and it was nothing more than a set-up for a chapter-closing gag.

[Fox666]

But he read Piccolo's mind... so he should know how strong Nappa and Vegeta are.

[Saiga]

MAGIC. And I just don't think it makes any sense for base Gotenks to be weaker than Goten and Trunks' Super Saiyan selves; IMO, he has to be stronger than SS Goten and Trunks at the very least. Not to mention that it makes Piccolo thinking that post-RoSaT base Gotenks had a shot at defeating Super Boo that little more plausible, even though he was just clinging to false hopes (he was still oblivious as to the kids being able to transform into SS after merging in their base forms) and it was nothing more than a set-up for a chapter-closing gag.

I don't see why it wouldn't make sense - they were always intended to be a Super Saiyan while fused, so it's not like fusion was hyped up as being more powerful than fusion by itself.

And considering that even Super Saiyan Gotenks couldn't do shit to Evil Boo it's clear that base Gotenks was nowhere near enough and that was simply a gag.

[Piccolo Daimao]

But he read Piccolo's mind... so he should know how strong Nappa and Vegeta are.

Maybe.

MAGIC. And I just don't think it makes any sense for base Gotenks to be weaker than Goten and Trunks' Super Saiyan selves; IMO, he has to be stronger than SS Goten and Trunks at the very least. Not to mention that it makes Piccolo thinking that post-RoSaT base Gotenks had a shot at defeating Super Boo that little more plausible, even though he was just clinging to false hopes (he was still oblivious as to the kids being able to transform into SS after merging in their base forms) and it was nothing more than a set-up for a chapter-closing gag.

I don't see why it wouldn't make sense - they were always intended to be a Super Saiyan while fused, so it's not like fusion was hyped up as being more powerful than fusion by itself.

And considering that even Super Saiyan Gotenks couldn't do shit to Evil Boo it's clear that base Gotenks was nowhere near enough and that was simply a gag.

It just doesn't. At least to me. I think that even the base kids merging together should wield a greater result than them transforming into Super Saiyan individually. And otherwise, it just makes Gotenks ridiculously weak, even if they were always intended to be Super Saiyan while merged.

[Saiga]

It just doesn't. At least to me. I think that even the base kids merging together should wield a greater result than them transforming into Super Saiyan individually. And otherwise, it just makes Gotenks ridiculously weak, even if they were always intended to be Super Saiyan while merged.

I just can't see why though. There's lots of room between base and Super Saiyan for the fusion to fit without being weak. If Gotenks was, say, 10x stronger than either Goten/Trunks, he's hardly weak.

[Piccolo Daimao]

It just doesn't. At least to me. I think that even the base kids merging together should wield a greater result than them transforming into Super Saiyan individually. And otherwise, it just makes Gotenks ridiculously weak, even if they were always intended to be Super Saiyan while merged.

I just can't see why though. There's lots of room between base and Super Saiyan for the fusion to fit without being weak. If Gotenks was, say, 10x stronger than either Goten/Trunks, he's hardly weak.

I guess I meant comparatively weak to Goten and Trunks, the whole package, Super Saiyan included. Also, via my battle powers, if Fusion still worked with the x50 multiplier, then that'd make base Gotenks 150 million. Only equal to SS Gokuu on Namek, and weaker than Android #18. So basically, #18 would get thrashed by SS Goten or Trunks fighting at full power, but she'd be able to spank the merged result of those two kids at base, Gotenks, like a misbehaving stepchild.

My personal rule is: the base version of any two Saiyans' successful Fusions have got to be stronger than their Super Saiyan halves individually, otherwise it just doesn't make sense from a story perspective. So, IMO, base Gotenks must be at the very least stronger than SS Trunks, and base Gogeta/Vegetto must be at the very least stronger than SS Gokuu. I italicized "at the very least" because I want you to understand that I'm not one of those people who think that base Gotenks is SS2-tier based on some insignificant quote (no offence to those who do believe that, but I don't buy it, even in this wacky arc). The way my levels had wound up, base Gotenks is equal to second-form Cell and base Gogeta/Vegetto is between SS2 kid Gohan and SS2 Gokuu.

And there are variables too. For example, Kaioushin and Kibito aren't a perfect match because of the vast difference in height, power, and status, so they wouldn't get the same boost as Gokuu and Vegeta.

Also, I know you don't agree with me, but I believe that the Boo arc is fucked-up in terms of their power-scaling, and none of the people on Kami's Palace would be so surprised if base Gotenks was only that strong. I'm just trying to minimize the nonsense.

Anyway, let's move on.

Tenshinhan (Saiyan arc, no Kikouhou) vs. 99 Saibaimen & Raditz

I think that Tenshinhan would take out Raditz with relative ease first, before blowing all of the Saibaimen away in a massive explosive wave.

Saiyan arc Vegeta & Kyui vs. Dodoria

While Dodoria's stronger than both of them, he's not too bright, and Vegeta's tenacity and superior skill could give him some trouble. Heck, Kyui could even try that "Look, Lord Freeza!" trick, and then he and Vegeta could blast the living hell out of an off-guard Dodoria.

Vegeta (arrival on Namek), Gohan & Kuririn (both when against Ginyuu) vs. transformed Zarbon

So Vegeta would be 24k here, while Gohan and Kuririn, since they were able to dominate Ginyuu-in-Gokuu's body at 23k with teamwork, would be around the same level or higher (because of the whole "dormant power releasing more as time progresses" thing. Since I believe that Gohan, who may've gotten a Zenkai too like Vegeta after having his neck broken by Recoom, would be equal with Zarbon at this point, "Team Three-Star" would overpower Zarbon.

Gokuu (when against Ginyuu) vs. first-form Freeza

At base, he's much weaker than Freeza, but if he can continuously use the Kaiouken x10, he'd be able to dominate him. A Kaiouken-powered Kamehameha, especially if Gokuu used that underwater trick, would be more than enough to destroy him.

SS Gokuu (Cell arc, heart virus) vs. Mecha Freeza

Since I believe that Gokuu would be almost as strong as his healthy self three years prior, he'd eventually beat Freeza into submission before his heart virus begins to take a drastic toll on his energy.

Android #18 (present) vs. Android #18 (future)

I guess this depends on whether or not you think the present Androids were really stronger than their future counterparts. I do, so present #18 would eventually win due to superior strength (even if it'd probably take ages because of their infinite energy).

Merged Piccolo (pre-RoSaT) vs. future Cell

Future Cell implies that he was stronger than the future Androids, and I believe that he weakened when he reverted to his larval stage and had to absorb humans to surpass the Androids. So I think that Cell would still wind up a bit stronger than Piccolo, and drain his ki before he beat him.

Piccolo (Cell Games) vs. Complete Cell (when against Vegeta, no regeneration)

I think that Piccolo and Cell are dead even here, but it could go either way because Piccolo still has his regeneration, while Cell knows all his techniques, as well as Gokuu, Vegeta, Freeza and Great King Cold's. Also, he might even be a bit faster because of this:

Chapter: 380 (DBZ 186), P2.4
Context: when asked if his perfect form could beat Vegeta
Cell: “Power! Speed! Technique! Brains! Mental Strength! I will be perfect in every way! That’s what the computer told me!!”

So I'll give the win to Cell because of that.

SS2 kid Gohan vs. Dabra

I'm not sure if I've ever seen this match-up before, but it seems as if it'd be an obvious one, since Vegeta pretty much says that Gohan would've had so much trouble with Dabra if he hadn't slacked off. So, if he can dodge his spit, then he'd claim victory.

Base Gotenks vs. second-form Cell

As I aforementioned, I believe that these two are equal, but second-form Cell would win because he's not an inexperienced showboater.

Pan (28th TB) vs. Cell arc Gohan, pre-RoSaT

While Pan's only a five-year-old quarter Saiyan girl, I figured that all the base Saiyans have battle powers of at least a million by now. And who knows, maybe she did inherit some of Ultimate Gohan's super-special power. So I have the two of them equal, but Gohan would win due to being older, wiser, more skilled, and more experienced.

Fat Boo vs. Pure Boo (equal powers)

I think that Fat Boo would win because he's not batshit insane.

SS Vegeta (Boo arc) vs. SS Broli (Movie #10)

I think that Broli's marginally stronger, but Vegeta's relative sanity and superior skill would allow him to defeat Broli.

[FNF]

Tenshinhan (Saiyan arc, no Kikouhou) vs. 99 Saibaimen & Raditz

Same as Piccolo Daimao's result

Saiyan arc Vegeta & Kyui vs. Dodoria

Considering how easily Kyui was squashed by Vegeta, It's quite possible that Dodoria could just do the same to Vegeta and Kyui at this point.

Vegeta (arrival on Namek), Gohan & Kuririn (both when against Ginyuu) vs. transformed Zarbon

They could probably manage a win over Zarbon here.

Gokuu (when against Ginyuu) vs. first-form Freeza

kkx10, one shot.

SS Gokuu (Cell arc, heart virus) vs. Mecha Freeza

I think he's still stronger than he was in the Trunks arc based on Ten's reaction so I have him beating Freeza.

Android #18 (present) vs. Android #18 (future)

From a narrative pov I guess it makes more sense for c18(present) to be stronger but I guess it's still possible she wasn't considering it's just speculation whether Trunks knew about the future androids suppressing themselves against him and Gohan.

Merged Piccolo (pre-RoSaT) vs. future Cell

Flip a coin...

Piccolo (Cell Games) vs. Complete Cell (when against Vegeta, no regeneration)

IMO Piccolo(post RoSaT)~/> 50% Goku(post RoSaT)>Initial PC.

SS2 kid Gohan vs. Dabra

Obvious win for Gohan is obvious.

Base Gotenks vs. second-form Cell

Base Gotenks skull fucks him beyond belief. The comments on the lookout make it HEAVILY unlikely for him to be below SSjin2 tier imo...

Pan (28th TB) vs. Cell arc Gohan, pre-RoSaT

She could be stronger than Cell for all we know. The comments are vague at best. 'Get pretty far'? She could be stronger than Goten and Trunks considering the chances of getting two+ pathetic fighters in a row is probably not what Goku had in mind.

Fat Boo vs. Pure Boo (equal powers)

IMO Fat Boo is probably more suspect to obtaining damage due to his nature. Hell he even feels pain. Pure Boo takes it.

SS Vegeta (Boo arc) vs. SS Broli (Movie #10)

Broly beats him down fairly effortlessly imo since I take the Daiz statement as SSjin Broly>SSjin Goku(Boo arc) and it's a pretty good feat demolishing the kids like he did.

[Saiga]

I guess I meant comparatively weak to Goten and Trunks, the whole package, Super Saiyan included. Also, via my battle powers, if Fusion still worked with the x50 multiplier, then that'd make base Gotenks 150 million. Only equal to SS Gokuu on Namek, and weaker than Android #18. So basically, #18 would get thrashed by SS Goten or Trunks fighting at full power, but she'd be able to spank the merged result of those two kids at base, Gotenks, like a misbehaving stepchild.

My personal rule is: the base version of any two Saiyans' successful Fusions have got to be stronger than their Super Saiyan halves individually, otherwise it just doesn't make sense from a story perspective. So, IMO, base Gotenks must be at the very least stronger than SS Trunks, and base Gogeta/Vegetto must be at the very least stronger than SS Gokuu. I italicized "at the very least" because I want you to understand that I'm not one of those people who think that base Gotenks is SS2-tier based on some insignificant quote (no offence to those who do believe that, but I don't buy it, even in this wacky arc). The way my levels had wound up, base Gotenks is equal to second-form Cell and base Gogeta/Vegetto is between SS2 kid Gohan and SS2 Gokuu.

And there are variables too. For example, Kaioushin and Kibito aren't a perfect match because of the vast difference in height, power, and status, so they wouldn't get the same boost as Gokuu and Vegeta.

Also, I know you don't agree with me, but I believe that the Boo arc is fucked-up in terms of their power-scaling, and none of the people on Kami's Palace would be so surprised if base Gotenks was only that strong. I'm just trying to minimize the nonsense.

Nah, I just can't see where you're coming from sorry. Since Gotenks was always intended to fight as a Super Saiyan, I only think his Super Saiyan form is what's important here. I just can't see any reason why Gotenks' base is meant to be compared with the Super Saiyan kids. I have Gotenks at 140-180 million, which is only "weak" if you're ignoring the whopping 50x multiplier and he's still far stronger than any other base Saiyan.

But onto the match ups...

Tenshinhan (Saiyan arc, no Kikouhou) vs. 99 Saibaimen & Raditz

I don't think Tenshinhan has the strength to pull this off. He'd be overwhelmed by the superior numbers, and probably be taken out by acid or exploding Saibaimen.

Saiyan arc Vegeta & Kyui vs. Dodoria

It's possible that the pair would be too busy butting heads to work effectively as a team, and if that happens they certainly have no chance against Dodoria. But, if they can work as a team, they can win this.

Vegeta (arrival on Namek), Gohan & Kuririn (both when against Ginyuu) vs. transformed Zarbon

I believe that the three can pull this off, especially if Kurilin stuns Zarbon with the Taiyo-ken and gives Gohan and Vegeta the opportunity to blast him.

Gokuu (when against Ginyuu) vs. first-form Freeza

With Kaio-ken x10, he'd be a lot stronger than Freeza, able to dominate him easily. But whether he can sustain it long enough to finish off Freeza is the question. Most likely, he would be able to.

SS Gokuu (Cell arc, heart virus) vs. Mecha Freeza

He'd start out dominating Freeza, but his virus would creep up on him and I don't think he'd be able to finish the fight.

Android #18 (present) vs. Android #18 (future)

I don't believe the present Androids are stronger, so it's a stalemate. Unless the future 18's cruelty makes her a more ruthless fighter, but that'd still be a very drawn out match.

Merged Piccolo (pre-RoSaT) vs. future Cell

I'd say that future Cell is stronger, as I believe he was superior to the future Androids who are equal to the present Androids (and 17 is equal to Piccolo). So Cell takes this.

Piccolo (Cell Games) vs. Complete Cell (when against Vegeta, no regeneration)

Oh wow, Piccolo gets absolutely destroyed.

SS2 kid Gohan vs. Dabra

If Gohan is in the same enraged mindset that he was against Cell, he'd claim victory. Otherwise he'd struggle as Gohan did.

Base Gotenks vs. second-form Cell

Second-form Cell defeats Gotenks easily.

Pan (28th TB) vs. Cell arc Gohan, pre-RoSaT

If Pan was a tailless hybrid like Goten and Trunks, she should be much stronger than Gohan. She should probably be comparable to Boo Arc Goten and Trunks to be considered special at all.

Fat Boo vs. Pure Boo (equal powers)

It all comes down to the candy beam. I think Pure Boo would be a lot less cautious, and so would be more likely to get hit by the candy beam.

SS Vegeta (Boo arc) vs. SS Broli (Movie #10)

I think Vegeta is stronger than Broli, and outclasses him in all areas except height. So Vegeta wins.

[Insertclevername]

SS2 kid Gohan vs. Dabra

If Gohan is in the same enraged mindset that he was against Cell, he'd claim victory. Otherwise he'd struggle as Gohan did.

I know this isn't really official or anything, but through the dialogue, I was always under the impression that Cell Games Gohan was at the peak of his "skill" at the Cell Games, since they make such big emphasis on Gohan's rustiness 7 years later. So from that, wouldn't Cell Games Gohan not struggle the same as his Boo arc self did? I mean he did spend 3 years training with his father and Piccolo, and another whole year inside the ROSAT. Wouldn't Gohan be as sharp as a knife when it came to fighting at this point?

[Saiga]

I know this isn't really official or anything, but through the dialogue, I was always under the impression that Cell Games Gohan was at the peak of his "skill" at the Cell Games, since they make such big emphasis on Gohan's rustiness 7 years later. So from that, wouldn't Cell Games Gohan not struggle the same as his Boo arc self did? I mean he did spend 3 years training with his father and Piccolo, and another whole year inside the ROSAT. Wouldn't Gohan be as sharp as a knife when it came to fighting at this point?

I wouldn't say he was at his peak or anything like that. The reason Gohan 7 years ago was so strong, I believe, is because of his ability to draw power from his anger, something his older self lacks. I think the older Gohan is just as strong as the non-enraged younger Gohan.

[Insertclevername]

I know this isn't really official or anything, but through the dialogue, I was always under the impression that Cell Games Gohan was at the peak of his "skill" at the Cell Games, since they make such big emphasis on Gohan's rustiness 7 years later. So from that, wouldn't Cell Games Gohan not struggle the same as his Boo arc self did? I mean he did spend 3 years training with his father and Piccolo, and another whole year inside the ROSAT. Wouldn't Gohan be as sharp as a knife when it came to fighting at this point?

I wouldn't say he was at his peak or anything like that. The reason Gohan 7 years ago was so strong, I believe, is because of his ability to draw power from his anger, something his older self lacks. I think the older Gohan is just as strong as the non-enraged younger Gohan.

I was referring to skill as in his technique and awareness and such, not his strength.

Also, I agree with that last statement.

[Piccolo Daimao]

I guess I meant comparatively weak to Goten and Trunks, the whole package, Super Saiyan included. Also, via my battle powers, if Fusion still worked with the x50 multiplier, then that'd make base Gotenks 150 million. Only equal to SS Gokuu on Namek, and weaker than Android #18. So basically, #18 would get thrashed by SS Goten or Trunks fighting at full power, but she'd be able to spank the merged result of those two kids at base, Gotenks, like a misbehaving stepchild.

My personal rule is: the base version of any two Saiyans' successful Fusions have got to be stronger than their Super Saiyan halves individually, otherwise it just doesn't make sense from a story perspective. So, IMO, base Gotenks must be at the very least stronger than SS Trunks, and base Gogeta/Vegetto must be at the very least stronger than SS Gokuu. I italicized "at the very least" because I want you to understand that I'm not one of those people who think that base Gotenks is SS2-tier based on some insignificant quote (no offence to those who do believe that, but I don't buy it, even in this wacky arc). The way my levels had wound up, base Gotenks is equal to second-form Cell and base Gogeta/Vegetto is between SS2 kid Gohan and SS2 Gokuu.

And there are variables too. For example, Kaioushin and Kibito aren't a perfect match because of the vast difference in height, power, and status, so they wouldn't get the same boost as Gokuu and Vegeta.

Also, I know you don't agree with me, but I believe that the Boo arc is fucked-up in terms of their power-scaling, and none of the people on Kami's Palace would be so surprised if base Gotenks was only that strong. I'm just trying to minimize the nonsense.

Nah, I just can't see where you're coming from sorry. Since Gotenks was always intended to fight as a Super Saiyan, I only think his Super Saiyan form is what's important here. I just can't see any reason why Gotenks' base is meant to be compared with the Super Saiyan kids. I have Gotenks at 140-180 million, which is only "weak" if you're ignoring the whopping 50x multiplier and he's still far stronger than any other base Saiyan.

I think I mentioned this, but I'll try to phrase it better. Everyone's reactions at Kami's Palace seem to at least imply that base Gotenks surpassed their expectations and/or were stronger than Goten and Trunks individually, and I count Super Saiyan as part of their whole package. #18, Piccolo...they're all taken aback. And, to me, the Fusions always seemed as if they were on another level, even in base, and even if they were still below Super Saiyan 2 tier. Anyway, since battle powers fell off the map post-Freeza, it's mostly free game as to wherever I want to put them.

But let's just end this here and agree to disagree, otherwise we'll be going round in circles.

[dbzfan7]

I guess I meant comparatively weak to Goten and Trunks, the whole package, Super Saiyan included. Also, via my battle powers, if Fusion still worked with the x50 multiplier, then that'd make base Gotenks 150 million. Only equal to SS Gokuu on Namek, and weaker than Android #18. So basically, #18 would get thrashed by SS Goten or Trunks fighting at full power, but she'd be able to spank the merged result of those two kids at base, Gotenks, like a misbehaving stepchild.

My personal rule is: the base version of any two Saiyans' successful Fusions have got to be stronger than their Super Saiyan halves individually, otherwise it just doesn't make sense from a story perspective. So, IMO, base Gotenks must be at the very least stronger than SS Trunks, and base Gogeta/Vegetto must be at the very least stronger than SS Gokuu. I italicized "at the very least" because I want you to understand that I'm not one of those people who think that base Gotenks is SS2-tier based on some insignificant quote (no offence to those who do believe that, but I don't buy it, even in this wacky arc). The way my levels had wound up, base Gotenks is equal to second-form Cell and base Gogeta/Vegetto is between SS2 kid Gohan and SS2 Gokuu.

And there are variables too. For example, Kaioushin and Kibito aren't a perfect match because of the vast difference in height, power, and status, so they wouldn't get the same boost as Gokuu and Vegeta.

Also, I know you don't agree with me, but I believe that the Boo arc is fucked-up in terms of their power-scaling, and none of the people on Kami's Palace would be so surprised if base Gotenks was only that strong. I'm just trying to minimize the nonsense.

Nah, I just can't see where you're coming from sorry. Since Gotenks was always intended to fight as a Super Saiyan, I only think his Super Saiyan form is what's important here. I just can't see any reason why Gotenks' base is meant to be compared with the Super Saiyan kids. I have Gotenks at 140-180 million, which is only "weak" if you're ignoring the whopping 50x multiplier and he's still far stronger than any other base Saiyan.

I think I mentioned this, but I'll try to phrase it better. Everyone's reactions at Kami's Palace seem to at least imply that base Gotenks surpassed their expectations and/or were stronger than Goten and Trunks individually, and I count Super Saiyan as part of their whole package. #18, Piccolo...they're all taken aback. And, to me, the Fusions always seemed as if they were on another level, even in base, and even if they were still below Super Saiyan 2 tier. Anyway, since battle powers fell off the map post-Freeza, it's mostly free game as to wherever I want to put them.

But let's just end this here and agree to disagree, otherwise we'll be going round in circles.

I already posted a few pages back sources to support this case with both the daiz 7 description, and how Toriyama came up with fusion in the first place. He even agreed when coming up with fusion with Masakazu Katsura that, fusion is the only thing that can make warriors go beyond super saiyan. But, I agree with you that we shouldn't stay on this topic and move on. I especially agree that the Boo saga is just that messed up.

Tao Pai Pai(re-created the same way Gero made 17 and 18) vs Piccolo(God)

I would think if Tao Pai Pai was remade with the technology that made 17 and 18, he could put up a good fight and possibly win. Also consider TPP had lots of previous MA training and skill which I don't think 17 or 18 had. TPP also has all the info that 17 and 18 had as well. Whether anyone thinks TPP would win or lose, where would you place him.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Tao Pai Pai(re-created the same way Gero made 17 and 18) vs Piccolo(God)

I would think if Tao Pai Pai was remade with the technology that made 17 and 18, he could put up a good fight and possibly win. Also consider TPP had lots of previous MA training and skill which I don't think 17 or 18 had. TPP also has all the info that 17 and 18 had as well.

Since Tao Pai Pai would be an actual martial artist with a lot of power to start with, I think he'd be a good deal stronger than #17 and #18, therefore he'd probably win against merged Piccolo. Unless Piccolo managed to hit him with his Gekiretsu Koudan.

[dbzfan7]

Tao Pai Pai(re-created the same way Gero made 17 and 18) vs Piccolo(God)

I would think if Tao Pai Pai was remade with the technology that made 17 and 18, he could put up a good fight and possibly win. Also consider TPP had lots of previous MA training and skill which I don't think 17 or 18 had. TPP also has all the info that 17 and 18 had as well.

Since Tao Pai Pai would be an actual martial artist with a lot of power to start with, I think he'd be a good deal stronger than #17 and #18, therefore he'd probably win against merged Piccolo. Unless Piccolo managed to hit him with his Gekiretsu Koudan.

Where would you place Tao Pai Pai though? Would you say first form cell, 16, below 16?

[Piccolo Daimao]

Tao Pai Pai(re-created the same way Gero made 17 and 18) vs Piccolo(God)

I would think if Tao Pai Pai was remade with the technology that made 17 and 18, he could put up a good fight and possibly win. Also consider TPP had lots of previous MA training and skill which I don't think 17 or 18 had. TPP also has all the info that 17 and 18 had as well.

Since Tao Pai Pai would be an actual martial artist with a lot of power to start with, I think he'd be a good deal stronger than #17 and #18, therefore he'd probably win against merged Piccolo. Unless Piccolo managed to hit him with his Gekiretsu Koudan.

Where would you place Tao Pai Pai though? Would you say first form cell, 16, below 16?

Between merged Piccolo/#17 and #16.