How powerful did Yamcha, Ten, Chaozu, and Krillin get?

[FNF]

@Son Gohan, What kind of logic is that? Hell your own post disproves it;

Context: the androids mistake Yamcha for Goku
No.20: “A human with an unusually high energy rating is heading this way…Is the search system malfunctioning?”
No.19: “It’s not a malfunction, No.20. I’m noting the same energy.”
No.20: “It greatly surpasses human data…”
No.19: “We’ve found him already…Son Goku.”

The Androids regard Goku etc as 'humans' so he's actually >>>>>> Goku (Saiyan arc) considering he was so much stronger than all 'human data' that c20 thought the system was malfunctioning. The quote on the whole basically means 'The only person who can possibly be this strong is Goku'.

@Deep, you're starting to speculate and basically saying 'he can't be that strong just... because'.

The fact of the matter is that Piccolo still thought that the Androids could be the one's that owned Trunks.
AT said that he ditched pls because they limited his potential to draw creative fights essentially, so using pl logic simply doesn't fly...

[shonenhikada]

@Son Gohan, What kind of logic is that? Hell your own post disproves it;

Context: the androids mistake Yamcha for Goku
No.20: “A human with an unusually high energy rating is heading this way…Is the search system malfunctioning?”
No.19: “It’s not a malfunction, No.20. I’m noting the same energy.”
No.20: “It greatly surpasses human data…”
No.19: “We’ve found him already…Son Goku.”

The Androids regard Goku etc as 'humans' so he's actually >>>>>> Goku (Saiyan arc) considering he was so much stronger than all 'human data' that c20 thought the system was malfunctioning. The quote on the whole basically means 'The only person who can possibly be this strong is Goku'.

@Deep, you're starting to speculate and basically saying 'he can't be that strong just... because'.

The fact of the matter is that Piccolo still thought that the Androids could be the one's that owned Trunks.
AT said that he ditched pls because they limited his potential to draw creative fights essentially, so using pl logic simply doesn't fly...

To further add to this point

1. The androids are incapable of sensing hidden energy.

2. It was not stated that Yamcha had powered up, or was using his total power when approaching the androids. Take for example Son-Goku on Namek he has a PL of 90,000 but was able to suppress it down to 5000, and fool the ginyu force into thinking he was weak.

--
Do you agree FNF ?

[Son_Gohan]

@Son Gohan, What kind of logic is that? Hell your own post disproves it;

Context: the androids mistake Yamcha for Goku
No.20: “A human with an unusually high energy rating is heading this way…Is the search system malfunctioning?”
No.19: “It’s not a malfunction, No.20. I’m noting the same energy.”
No.20: “It greatly surpasses human data…”
No.19: “We’ve found him already…Son Goku.”

The Androids regard Goku etc as 'humans' so he's actually >>>>>> Goku (Saiyan arc) considering he was so much stronger than all 'human data' that c20 thought the system was malfunctioning. The quote on the whole basically means 'The only person who can possibly be this strong is Goku'.

That's where our opinions differ, their data would've been informed of the fact that Goku was a Saiyan. So I believe that by "human data" it would only pertain to what was classified as human.

[Deep Thought]

@Deep, you're starting to speculate and basically saying 'he can't be that strong just... because'.

The fact of the matter is that Piccolo still thought that the Androids could be the one's that owned Trunks.
AT said that he ditched pls because they limited his potential to draw creative fights essentially, so using pl logic simply doesn't fly...

I'm not just saying "because." I gave four very good reasons as to why Piccolo couldn't surpass Vegeta in strength. Your reasons as to why the Androids MUST be that strong is considerably more feeble than mine. You said it yourself, power levels don't matter. With the Androids, that is literally the case, because energy cannot be sensed, so they don't know how powerful they are.

There are two Androids that land exactly where and when Trunks describes. They are very powerful, they wreck havoc, and they want to kill Goku. If they fit the description perfectly, why would they second doubt themselves? And if they are a little weaker then what Trunks said? Then maybe the Androids are just a little weaker in this timeline, or maybe the Z-Warriors got so strong that they are unstoppable. This is pretty much what Piccolo says in regards to Android 20 being so weak and beatable. Remember that the last time they sensed Trunks' power was three years ago, and even from that all they can infer was that "Trunks is a Super Sayajin" and "Trunks could beat suppressed Mecha Freeza." Which evidence would outweigh the other? I must say again that Trunk never mentioned "fake" Androids.

[FNF]

@Son Gohan, What kind of logic is that? Hell your own post disproves it;

Context: the androids mistake Yamcha for Goku
No.20: “A human with an unusually high energy rating is heading this way…Is the search system malfunctioning?”
No.19: “It’s not a malfunction, No.20. I’m noting the same energy.”
No.20: “It greatly surpasses human data…”
No.19: “We’ve found him already…Son Goku.”

The Androids regard Goku etc as 'humans' so he's actually >>>>>> Goku (Saiyan arc) considering he was so much stronger than all 'human data' that c20 thought the system was malfunctioning. The quote on the whole basically means 'The only person who can possibly be this strong is Goku'.

That's where our opinions differ, their data would've been informed of the fact that Goku was a Saiyan. So I believe that by "human data" it would only pertain to what was classified as human.

I guess you haven't seen Herms' huge post on what a 'human' technically is and is not in Dragonball? I'll just give you the link and that should explain it to you.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... =7&t=13915

Yamcha>>>>>Any human data (inc Goku).

@Deep,

Did I say Piccolo>Vegeta? Nope.
I don't how they are more feeble considering it's pretty straight forward.
Just because they can't sense the androids, it means they can't tell how strong they are? Now that's just silly. They fought each other. Of course Piccolo would know how strong c20 was.

You're missing the point entirely. It has nothing to do with them being the 'same' or 'different' androids. Piccolo flat-out says it's possible they'd grown too strong for the androids who were > SSjin Trunks (Trunks arc).
And who says Freeza is suppressed while fighting Trunks? Just because he was suppressed while he was touching down on Earth, it doesn't mean he was suppressed the whole time. That is speculation just like people saying King Cold was in his 2nd form vs Trunks.

[FNF]

@Son Gohan, What kind of logic is that? Hell your own post disproves it;

Context: the androids mistake Yamcha for Goku
No.20: “A human with an unusually high energy rating is heading this way…Is the search system malfunctioning?”
No.19: “It’s not a malfunction, No.20. I’m noting the same energy.”
No.20: “It greatly surpasses human data…”
No.19: “We’ve found him already…Son Goku.”

The Androids regard Goku etc as 'humans' so he's actually >>>>>> Goku (Saiyan arc) considering he was so much stronger than all 'human data' that c20 thought the system was malfunctioning. The quote on the whole basically means 'The only person who can possibly be this strong is Goku'.

@Deep, you're starting to speculate and basically saying 'he can't be that strong just... because'.

The fact of the matter is that Piccolo still thought that the Androids could be the one's that owned Trunks.
AT said that he ditched pls because they limited his potential to draw creative fights essentially, so using pl logic simply doesn't fly...

To further add to this point

1. The androids are incapable of sensing hidden energy.

2. It was not stated that Yamcha had powered up, or was using his total power when approaching the androids. Take for example Son-Goku on Namek he has a PL of 90,000 but was able to suppress it down to 5000, and fool the ginyu force into thinking he was weak.

--
Do you agree FNF ?

1. Yes.

2. Maybe. A little speculative.

[CaptainKatsura]

Whether Yamcha supressed his power or not, he still got impaled with extreme prejudice by Dr. Gero. Not even near level of 19 and 20.

[In Brightest Day]

Didn't Goku tell everyone to power up when one of them found the Androids, meaning that they would first have to suppress themselves? If Dr. Gero and #19 had felt Piccolo's full power right from the get-go they would have known they didn't have a chance.

[FNF]

Whether Yamcha supressed his power or not, he still got impaled with extreme prejudice by Dr. Gero. Not even near level of 19 and 20.

Agreed.

@Brightest, good point... I'll need to check that out. I remember they did that later when they were searching for c20's lab.

[Saiga]

Personally, I think "human data" was referring to regular humans, and not necessarily the super warriors. However I agree that Yamcha would be above Saiyan Arc Goku's 8,000 and nowhere near 19 and 20.

I don't like using Toriyama's abandonment of PL's as a reason to put the humans at crazy high levels. That's not an in-universe reason, and without an in-universe reason I'm not going to place them higher than what they would logically be. There's no reason to throw logic to the wind with nothing but out-of-universe explanations.

[CaptainKatsura]

Instead, we should look at feats. It's a matter of fact that ALL human characters were severely outclassed by Androids by that point, looking at their performance alone. Though they were still useful as non-combat support staff.

[FNF]

Personally, I think "human data" was referring to regular humans, and not necessarily the super warriors. However I agree that Yamcha would be above Saiyan Arc Goku's 8,000 and nowhere near 19 and 20.

I don't like using Toriyama's abandonment of PL's as a reason to put the humans at crazy high levels. That's not an in-universe reason, and without an in-universe reason I'm not going to place them higher than what they would logically be. There's no reason to throw logic to the wind with nothing but out-of-universe explanations.

Isn't that just being overly selective? C20 makes it pretty clear that he is being pretty broad with his phrasing. Heck, they even call Yamcha just a 'human' after they realize who it is (“There’s a 96% chance this is the human known as Yamcha…”).

But that's not even the only reason. Ten seems to suggest he could keep up with a high caliber fight, c20 thinks he can get a substantial amount of energy from Yamcha and c20 thinks Krillin and Ten are essential in his plans to absorb enough energy to surpass Vegeta. People can go 'but it's impossible for them to be dat stronger herp derp' all they want but it doesn't invalidate it at all considering the kind of gains they'd made in the past.

[Saiga]

Isn't that just being overly selective? C20 makes it pretty clear that he is being pretty broad with his phrasing. Heck, they even call Yamcha just a 'human' after they realize who it is (“There’s a 96% chance this is the human known as Yamcha…”).

But that's not even the only reason. Ten seems to suggest he could keep up with a high caliber fight, c20 thinks he can get a substantial amount of energy from Yamcha and c20 thinks Krillin and Ten are essential in his plans to absorb enough energy to surpass Vegeta. People can go 'but it's impossible for them to be dat stronger herp derp' all they want but it doesn't invalidate it at all considering the kind of gains they'd made in the past.

Maybe, but the quote isn't very specific so who knows how it's meant to be interpreted? It could just be a way of saying "Hey, this guy isn't a normal human" which can be said for any of the fighters.

But those reasons really don't prove anything. They have no feats, and were not shown being helpful at all. #20 has been shown to be wrong in his estimations about people's power, so that can't be used as concrete evidence towards anything. And any good gains they were shown making in the past had reasoning behind them other than MOUNTAIN TRAINING.

[Son_Gohan]

I guess you haven't seen Herms' huge post on what a 'human' technically is and is not in Dragonball? I'll just give you the link and that should explain it to you.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... =7&t=13915

Yamcha>>>>>Any human data (inc Goku).

I have actually.

The Androids weren't expecting the Z Warriors to know exactly when and where they would appear, so to detect a human that strong coming near them was enough to make him question whether there was a malfunction. I interpret their coming to the conclusion that this person is Goku based on the very fact he is Saiyan, and that his power did not correlate with the "human data" he had collected.

[FNF]

Maybe, but the quote isn't very specific so who knows how it's meant to be interpreted? It could just be a way of saying "Hey, this guy isn't a normal human" which can be said for any of the fighters.

But those reasons really don't prove anything. They have no feats, and were not shown being helpful at all. #20 has been shown to be wrong in his estimations about people's power, so that can't be used as concrete evidence towards anything. And any good gains they were shown making in the past had reasoning behind them other than MOUNTAIN TRAINING.

But the question is why would AT not include the Z senshi in their statement? To say he wasn't is stretching to say the least...

So everything has to be backed up with 'feats'? How about Gotenks' survival feat against Fat Boo? It's more than Vegeta managed amiright? You can't just say that if you aren't going to follow the same logic throughout the series. The statements made are more than enough. It's like Vegeta saying Goku's power is 5,000 or even over 8,000. Nothing needs to back it up as such.
Speaking of Gotenks, don't you write off Gotenks as a gag character and that's why you don't take anything about him seriously? That's an OUT of universe explanation lol. Picking and choosing at it's finest.

As I explained before when talking about c20's judgements: 'Piccolo was suppressed. C20 could even tell that himself> Vegeta(post BBA). Vegeta actually had to bluff his way out of it. The only times he was wrong were when he got cocky (vs SSjin Vegeta initially) and when he was deceived (Piccolo suppressing then raising his Ki in short bursts).'
There is no reason to doubt c20 in the examples I have gave concerning the Earthlings.

The whole 'Mountain training' shit is just ridiculous. Seriously, If they are trained by someone in the past (Kaio etc), they in-cooperate their training into their own. Even without it, it doesn't matter. It's a TIME SKIP where they are meant to get way more powerful. AT goes as far as to foreshadow it.

@Son Gohan, I get the feeling you really didn't read it properly. Saiyans ARE humans lol.

[Son_Gohan]

You're arguing semantics, my friend.

I interpreted it in racial terms, not as a general term. That's why we differ.

[Saiga]

But the question is why would AT not include the Z senshi in their statement? To say he wasn't is stretching to say the least...

So everything has to be backed up with 'feats'? How about Gotenks' survival feat against Fat Boo? It's more than Vegeta managed amiright? You can't just say that if you aren't going to follow the same logic throughout the series. The statements made are more than enough. It's like Vegeta saying Goku's power is 5,000 or even over 8,000. Nothing needs to back it up as such.
Speaking of Gotenks, don't you write off Gotenks as a gag character and that's why you don't take anything about him seriously? That's an OUT of universe explanation lol. Picking and choosing at it's finest.

As I explained before when talking about c20's judgements: 'Piccolo was suppressed. C20 could even tell that himself> Vegeta(post BBA). Vegeta actually had to bluff his way out of it. The only times he was wrong were when he got cocky (vs SSjin Vegeta initially) and when he was deceived (Piccolo suppressing then raising his Ki in short bursts).'
There is no reason to doubt c20 in the examples I have gave concerning the Earthlings.

The whole 'Mountain training' shit is just ridiculous. Seriously, If they are trained by someone in the past (Kaio etc), they in-cooperate their training into their own. Even without it, it doesn't matter. It's a TIME SKIP where they are meant to get way more powerful. AT goes as far as to foreshadow it.

@Son Gohan, I get the feeling you really didn't read it properly. Saiyans ARE humans lol.

How is that stretching it? All they say is humans. It's no stretch to say they might be talking about regular humans.

What does Gotenks have to do with anything here? We didn't see the fight. Gohan also survived a fight against Fat Boo and that doesn't make him stronger than Majin Vegeta. It's certainly not as clear as an actual statement of power levels, either. Nothing needs to back that up because we have an actual figure supported by a Scouter. That's completely different. And no, I DON'T write Gotenks
off as a gag character, so no I'm not picking and choosing.

If #20 can be fooled by Vegeta's bluff, it still shows that he has the capacity to make mistakes. He's not infallible and his statements shouldn't be treated as though they are.

Finally, no, it's ridiculous to think MOUNTAIN TRAINING is so great. Goku and co keep getting stronger by moving onto BETTER training methods, even if the humans are incorporating Kaio's training they still don't have the gravity of his planet and so it'd be ridiculous to say their training is better. Furthermore, it would be downright stupid to say that their mountain training provides vastly superior gains to Vegeta training in 300Gs or Piccolo and Goku's sparring.

[Bussani]

Didn't Goku tell everyone to power up when one of them found the Androids, meaning that they would first have to suppress themselves?

He told everyone to alert everyone else if they spot an android, but I don't think he said anything about powering up. Raising their ki as a signal was a tactic they used later on, while tracking Gero down.

[In Brightest Day]

Didn't Goku tell everyone to power up when one of them found the Androids, meaning that they would first have to suppress themselves?

He told everyone to alert everyone else if they spot an android, but I don't think he said anything about powering up. Raising their ki as a signal was a tactic they used later on, while tracking Gero down.

Ah okay. By "alert everyone" I assume he still meant raise your Ki. Yamcha's Ki decreasing was the way everyone ended up finding them and yelling across the city is obviously... impractical, to say the least.

[Bussani]

True. Making your ki spike does seem like an efficient way to get everyone's attention. But later on, Kuririn asks, "What kind of signal should we use?" and Piccolo suggests the ki raising thing, so I'm not sure it was obvious to all of them before. Maybe they were just in a hurry and Goku didn't think about details like "alert everyone how?"